Next issue apparently  

 

Well, probably haven't thought about as long and hard as some here, but RE: Magnus' characterisation, I totally read his 'relax' thing as him making a (admittedly dry) joke and got the impression that he knew how to disable his FIM chip but was intending to not get drunk and hope no-one noticed. Which didn't work so he played dumb.

I don't see him as a joke OTT character, but a neurotic one with flashes of dry wit.

 

I almost wonder if it's both-like he made the relax joke, but didn't know about the RIM chip.

 

Regarding the relax comment, I think Magnus might've been making a joke. He's certainly cracked jokes in the past (early issue where he lists things that have gone wrong then says "but Cyclonus is happy so it's okay), and he even says later in this issue he makes jokes but no one understands them.

 

Am I the only one who doesn't think (despite the spoiler-y cover)

Spoiler

that Magnus is going to die next issue? If you look at the Necrobot's list from Issue 8 - he's right above Flywheels. We know Drift survives and he's above Magnus...

.

Food for thought.

 

I have no idea what to think. It could go either way.

On one hand, they've been drawing so much attention to his potential death (Necrobot's list, covers released months ahead, "Won't Make it" tagline) that I think it's distinctly possible a huge distraction from the deaths that will hit out of nowhere (I think Chromedome is all but doomed, his storyline has been wrapped up so fully except for his real name).

On the other hand, it could be to get fans used to the idea to quell people getting pissy about a major character is dying.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up that he'll live in case he does kick it, but I have a feeling he will. His character arc is still ongoing, and new plot threads were opened in the last issue. What's this about him and Tyrest? Music? Plus he's been developing his social skills, but it's not concluded.

Then again, Roberts and Roche definitely killed characters seemingly mid-arc in LSOTW, so it's not beyond him.

 

Hmm, I didn't get that at all reading the FIM part. I took Magnus saying "Oh very well." as him reluctantly disabling the FIM - he didn't want to disable it before as he wouldn't want to lose control of himself.

Another way to interpret this though is to compare it to smoking and inhaling. A non-smoker would know what smoking is and would have heard of the concept of inhaling as well. But a non-smoker wouldn't inhale the very first time they tried to smoke.

I'm with Sarnian though when it comes to explaining WHY Magnus is acting so out of character. Magnus is someone that's been wound up too tight for eons and it's all starting to fall apart now. Yes, we cringe when Magnus makes a joke that isn't funny, the same way Rung does - Magnus is a bit uncomfortable to watch right now, but that's who he is at this point in his life.

 

Yeah I was too disappointed that the avatars in the story did not look anywhere near as cool as in the cover.

 

Well, that's what you were doing. Based on the information presented to us, you were creating a system of assumptions that allowed you to read the scene differently. However, I think that as it was given to us we are almost incontrovertibly seeing:
A) Magnus not knowing basic words... and not just as a one-off... it comes back again
B) Magnus not knowing how to drink Engex, and being genuinely ignorant of the practice of FIM disabling

Both of these things are part of an ongoing tendency that turns him into a cartoon of a caricature of a stereotype of an officious OCD buffoon for the sake of rather absurd comedy. This issue isn't the problem... it's been a problem since the beginning. It just reached a critical mass with this latest issue. Anything you say beyond these key facts is necessarily conjecture. I think trying to dig him out of this is a wasted effort. I think the cartoonish excesses of behaviour in Magnus are pretty clearly a running joke that's gotten out of hand, and is in danger of overwhelming the more serious potential of his character. Trying to read anything deeper into them is just a confabulation, I believe.

As for me dismissing your character study... geez, don't take it so hard.  

I was acknowledging the obvious. I didn't realize you were unveiling a grand hypothesis... I wasn't trying to shoot you down. It's just been pretty clearly evident in the series all along.
And I'm not saying your character study is wrong either, but rather that those observations about Magnus don't actually really do anything to mitigate his increasingly slapstick cop characterization in the series. It doesn't matter if he's slowly going insane, because the jokes are still over-the-top and strain credibility regardless.

I haven't dug my heels in... there just hasn't been an argument made that has enough force to move me anywhere. There's just no evidence in the dialogue to suggest that I'm "very, very wrong"... besides wishful thinking and theories that I feel are just overthinking a cheap joke at Magnus' expense.

And let's face it... sometimes writers make mistakes or let themselves go... sometimes they try to cover it by writing around those things. In a serial medium, it's often inevitable, and I don't think Roberts is above doing so.

Which I didn't take offence to... as normally I am very astute.  

But I disagree. I'm not missing anything. There's nothing there to miss... except a little bit of authorial self-indulgence taken too far, I'd say. It's not a big deal to say it. Roberts does wonderful stuff, but we know he has his weaknesses and tendency toward self-indulgence at times. He is not a sacred cow.

Considering how he has been shown to be incapable of such frivolity in the past, it doesn't feel like he could be joking... nor is it really presented that way in the story, IMO.

However, I will say that Magnus has been portrayed inconsistently over the course of the series, so it's hard to be certain. If Roberts has a fault as a writer, it's that sometimes he loses his grasp of where to be slapstick-funny and where to be restrained-funny. Some of the bits with the Scavengers also leaned dangerously in this direction... I laughed, and then I thought "Hm... kind of a mood-breaker." Sometimes he misses the mark. I don't mind calling that out occasionally.

After all... if we feed him too much praise, it'll go to his head, and the writing will suffer.  

I'd like to see him that way, but occasionally it's a bit of a stretch.

I buy all of that, except his OCD-ness, his seeming total lack of knowledge about FIM disabling, and his inability to use basic vocabulary selectively when it's "funny". It's just a bit too much.

Okay, so he's not RUINED FOREVER... but it does honestly make me care less about his character. A character that continually pulls me out of his story because of the way he's written is going to lose my interest eventually. And I'd rather see a Magnus that IS believable, rather than an increasingly Simpsons-esque caricature.

zmog

 

So, everything about Tailgate is lie... Then, how did he edited his Autopedia entry? Isn't it some kind of closed database?

 

According to James he edited himself and then the other crew added to it based on what he's told them. So it's basically Wikipedia.

 

I was wondering about that too. So in other words, Ultra Magnus should probably stop using Autopedia to perform security checks on new crewmembers. That's a pretty huge fail on his and Red Alert's part, no? Like, they didn't even check the file history?  

zmog

 

It certainly is. James did drop the ball there.

Also, that ceremony that Rewind had the video of, how exactly would it have exposed him? Obviously he wouldn't have been in it because he was stuck down a hole. Unless the narrator listed each of the crews individual achievements and Tailpipe was featured. Dunno. Seemed odd.

OK, right let's sort out this Enjex/FIM chip thing. If I'm guilty of creating an alternative narrative, then I think you are too. You can't show me anything in the story where definitively he says he has no knowledge of the FIM and how it works to stop a Cybertronian getting inebriated. Similarly, I can't show you where he says that he really doesn't want to disable his FIM because he's afraid of cutting loose. What we're basically both basing our interpretations on is four lines of speech, one of which is '...'

I could be way off the mark, but let's break that bit down and look at how I think you and I have both interpreted that little bit.

Let's discount the exchange with Whirl when he hands him the drink because that's basically a guy trying to get a light drinker to knock back a strong cocktail in one. We've all been there with our buddies and there's always one that tries that.

Swerve (Knowing that he's just knocked back a strong cocktail, although obviously not realising it's as strong as it actually is): 'You're not - You don't feel any different?'
Magnus: 'Should I?' (Your interpretation: 'I don't know what this is supposed to do.' My interpretation: 'I've only had a little bit, should I really be feeling
something already?')
Swerve: 'Waitaminute. You haven't deactivated your Fuel Intake Moderation Chip, have you?'
Magnus: '...' (Yours: 'What is this chip of which you speak? I have never heard of such a thing. Why do I need to do that?' Mine: 'Bugger, I don't really want to, I need an excuse here.')
Swerve: 'Magnus, unless you deactivate your F.I.M. chip you may as well be plugged into your recharge slab. Deactivate your chip and you'll loosen up.'
Magnus: 'Oh, very well.' (Yours: 'Well I don't know what this thing is or what deactivating it will do, so I will try it at Swerves insistence.' Mine: 'Well, I don't really want to, but I've only had a little bit, and it will shut Swerve up, so I may as well at least show willing.')
(Magnus immediately deactivates the chip.)
Magnus:'There, nothing.'(Yours: 'There, I have located this chip that I knew nothing about and deactivated it and it has had no effect on my internal systems.' Mine: 'There, I've done it, I'm still not feeling anything, so can you stop pushing me now.')
(Magnus falls off bar stool.)

Now the actual joke itself is old and hackneyed. It's been done a million times before. Sure it was telegraphed, but heck, I still laugh every time I see the bit where Del Boy falls through the bar hatch, and I must have seen that 1,000 times since the first time in the mid 80's. But is the joke itself really that world breaking and character destroying? With my interpretation, no, I don't think it is. Uptight guy having to be cajoled into partaking of strong drink and can't handle it. An oldie but a goldie. Everyone laughs at him and the resulting freak-out by his subordinates. The world continues to turn.

Under you interpretation, yes I agree, if I did see it that way I would be like 'Woah, hang on a minute, that's a bit bloody stupid and goes against what I know about this character.' the world wobbles on it's axis. I can see that. But so far, you're the only one I've seen who's interpreted that snippet in this way. And it's taken you out of the world and that's a crying shame, because I think if you saw it the way myself and others have, that wouldn't have happened. You probably still wouldn't have laughed at the joke mind  

Now not knowing the meaning of the word relax, I wasn't being entirely serious that it was really one of the words that he's purged from his vocabulary, but if he was purging words I don't see why it wouldn't be. His job is to capture intergalactic arms dealers and war criminals and report back to his superiors. He mainly does this by beating them up. Not much need to tell them or his bosses to relax. But anyhow, it probably was him trying to be witty and failing miserably. You say that nothing the character has done previously suggests that he would do such a thing, but it's because it's a new thing he's trying at the insistence of his CO. He tells Rung as much. He's terrible at it.

Out of character? Well, yes. That's the point. The character is changing. He's trying to become someone else.

And finally, do I think Roberts is a Golden Idol? Do I think he can do no wrong? Well, no. He has his faults for sure. He does tend to hang on to things for too long. The 113 thing frankly grates now. We get it, it's done now, pick another number because everything's just blurred into a sea of 113's. Agents, battalions, rooms, seconds, it's hard to keep track. He tends to over self reference, which is fine, but sometimes at the risk of ignoring over referenceable material. He completely changed Ratchet between Chaos theory and MTMTE which jarred, as much as I love the new grumpy Ratchet. Plus a few other quibbles, but I'm submerged into his world. I like being made to think. I like the mix of broad and subtle. I like working out the subtexts without the writer feeling the need to spell it out for me like other writers feel the need to. And although sometimes things may not feel quite right, he's earnt my trust that they'll be a purpose behind it so I allow myself to go with it.

And god-dammit, I want to know why the hell some of these guys are on the Quest in the first place! Rodimus, Drift, Chrome and Rewind, Pipes, Ratchet, Swerve we know their reasons. Cyclonus, Whirls, Skids and Tailgate and there by accident. But Magnus? What possessed him to along in the first place? It's not to travel space because he's done loads of that. Was it to rediscover himself? If so why is he so unwilling to do it? Was it maybe to track down any errent war criminals? he could have done that by himself. Was it because he is religious and truly believes in the Guiding Hand and the Knights? If so then let's hear it. Xaaron? What the hell's he doing there when he could be helping the new government? Sunstreaker helped rebuild Cybertron, so why abandon it? Is it because he's still not (and rightly so) trusted by his fellow Autobots? Is it just an excuse to have Bob on board? I want these things answered! Before they all die!

 

Yeah, maybe, since it was a newsfeed, they would have talked about Tailpipe or there would have been something that would have conflicted with Tailgate's story... I mean, Cyclonus would know, right? He was there.  

But I agree... it's fuzzy.

I think the implications are pretty much right there. "Feel any different?" "No, should I?" and onward... Basically Magnus doesn't know the first thing about drinking... not even from an outsider's view, which is the weird part. You'd think if you spent your life apprehending Cybertronian scumbags, you might know the first thing about drinking practices and their biological components.

I never said he didn't know what the FIM chip was... I'm assuming the FIM chip does more than just keep TFs from getting drunk. But I would have assumed that Magnus would be familiar with the practice of drinking by now.

But you're also taking my secondary point (which I believe is fairly stable) and neglecting the whole primary "relax" gag. Between those two jokes, and the general approach to Magnus as a joke character for the past dozen issues... I'm not really led to your conclusions.

Yeah, I didn't laugh. Easy joke is easy. But that's not really what we were talking about.

No, as I said, the overall depiction of Magnus as a joke character, whenever it suits the author, is... let's say "immersion breaking" and hurts the ability to take the character seriously when the time comes. And this issue merely contains the most recent and possibly most egregious examples of that ongoing depiction.

Yeah, but too bad it wasn't played quite that way, instead choosing to run with the cheap gags.

Actually, no I'm not the "only one" to think that Magnus is being subverted in this way. That's a bit of a distortion considering you were raising your hackles with someone else with a similar complaint not a page earlier.  

A few folks have chimed in to agree that Magnus' joke status is starting to strain credibility (though not everybody is as bothered by it as others), so I'm not the only person to be reading him that way. Also, I believe that, intentions aside, writing dialogue with this kind of awkward ambiguity is nonetheless worthy of criticism. I'm sure Mike Costa meant for his stories to be impregnated with deep, political, philosophical meaning... but he did a pretty crap job of conveying that. End result: Bad show, Mike.

So here is one of those rare examples of me levelling some (justified, I believe) criticism at James Roberts. Rather than come up with a 1000 reasons why it could be taken to mean much greater things, why can't we agree that it was a bit cheeky and indulgent in its search for cheap laughs, and that he should do better next time, eh?

Again, the idea of him purging parts of his personality (because vocabulary really works that way, right?) is already a bit weird... but if it results in him saying things like "re-lax? That's not even a word. I'm sure would have heard it before." then that's pushing it too far. Oh, you say, but it's just him making an awkward joke, get it? No, it's not him making an awkward joke. It's the author making an awkward joke.
Magnus doesn't make jokes like that, and if he did, I'd hope the author would do a better job of making that clear, rather than making it seem like a reality-breaking lapse into slapstick absurdity.

Yes, I'd like to know too... in fact, I think we're going to get the answer real soon. However, I don't think the path to that answer is best travelled by way of slapstick OCD gags. The goal is not the same as the execution.

Well, the real reason is because Roberts and Barber had an epic strip poker match to win the characters they each wanted for their story concepts, and Roberts probably grabbed everyone he could, and then grabbed a few old UK favourites just for the hell of it.

But yeah... with so much going on, sometimes it's easy to lose track of all the various background characters and their motivations and foibles. Sure, half the crew are named characters, but like most series, the active cast is pretty much no more than a half-dozen regulars, with another half-dozen in reserve on the second tier.

Hey, is Pipes still in the character roll call at the end of each issue? Has he done anything to rate that since Delphi? I mean, seriously.

zmog

 

Nooo, I don't mean the subversion of Magnus into a joke character. That's a seperate issue. I mean specifically the disabling of the FIM chip. You're the only one that's taken it as Magnus literallynot knowing how to drink. Most people have seen as him not really wanting to drink and having to be cajoled into it.

Some people are seeing him become a joke characiture. I'm not because I think I'm looking past the jokes that are on Magnus, and looking at Magnus himself and I'm getting a feeling of underlying conflict and tragedy there. I'm empaphising with him and not the guys laughing at him. He's a troubled guy and to me it's the comedy that's incidental to the person and providing balance. I can feel his exasperation, and his longing for acceptance, coupled with a confusion of not really knowing if that is actually what he wants or if he's just doing it because Rodimus says he should. He's lost and doesn't know his place anymore, is not even sure if there is a place for him anymore. Does that make sense? Doesn't mean I don't laugh at the jokes mind, I never claimed to be that sympathetic. And this isn't me claiming to be better at understanding, or that anyone who doesn't understand should sit in the corner with a lollipop or some such nonsense before anyone chips in. It's just the way I read it, nothing more.

And again, Magnus didn't make jokes like that. Now he does because his Superior officer pretty much told him to, and he can't quite bring himself to go against that, and/or because he want's to be liked and thinks that's the way to go about it. Cringeworthy isn't it? Poor bugger. Is it Roberts bull-shitting his way out of a hole? Maybe, works for me, your milage may vary  

So yes, let's agree to disagree. But by the by, isn't it great that a Transformers comic has generated this level of discussion from a supposed light hearted filler issue?

Finally, yes, Pipes is still on the crew roster. No, I don't know why either.

 

Didn't Ultra Magnus mention why he wanted to join in Death of Optimus Prime, he says,
"We're not wanted here. Besides, besides if the Knights of Cybertron are as smart as Drift says, maybe they can help us all out. Maybe they can fix the planet and teach us to live alongside the NAILs." so there you have it Magnus joined the mission because he thought/thinks the Knights can save society or fix the planet or something.

 

See, I was gonna say it was an epic Pokémon battle. But if you want to imagine them playing strip poker...well, that's your prerogative.  

To be fair, I think he's been doing a pretty good job of juggling the cast so far, with a few small exceptions. It's not like you can fully go into the background and idiosyncrasies of 200 characters in a comic series that only comes out monthly. I think featuring characters as they're needed and inserting several well-known characters who've already had some time to shine in previous series (yes, those series weren't particularly good, but MTMTE is more about giving characterization to those who haven't had much before) incorporated into background events is a better way to go than a G1 cartoon style of storytelling where characters get one scene, maybe, before the focus switches to someone else.

To answer about Pipes, he's done things in the background. Or rather, had things done to him, poor guy. He's not so much a main character as a frequent side character that hangs around the main cast. Plus, I think the only reason he was put on that cast page was to avoid having blank spaces in the list while guys like Rung and Red Alert were/are...out of commission.

Well, Magnus... I've made some semi-educated assumptions about that. For one, he's the Duly Appointed Enforcer of the Tyrest Accord: a set of laws about preventing Cybertronian technology from falling into alien hands. He also upholds the Code of Interplanetary Conflict, which is exactly what you'd think it is. As such, I imagine going along with the Lost Light's crew out into space would jive more with his career of dealing with aliens and improving interstellar relations than staying on Cybertron would. The NAILs may have come from other parts of the galaxy, but they're still Cybertronian in origin, after all. A lot of the scientists from Kimia left on the Lost Light too, so keeping their inventions from being traded to other sentient beings would be a priority of his.

Sure, this deprives Cybertron at large of his talents as a law enforcer, but he can't be two places at once, and I'm thinking he trusted Prowl and his subordinates to take care of things. It was a bad move in hindsight, but I don't think anyone suspected that Prowl was as much of a control freak and budding psycho as he turned out to be.

He could've went away on the Lost Light to look after Rodimus and make sure he didn't do anything too stupid. As to why Ultra Magnus regrets joining now? For all the reasons he's stated before, plus the fact that Rodimus refuses to listen to him most of the time and the rest of the crew disobey him left and right. I can't blame him for having second thoughts.

With Sunstreaker, I'd say you're pretty much right on the money as to his reasoning for leaving Cybertron. A lot of Autobots still hold a grudge for what he's done (and, as you said, rightfully so), so why would he stay in a place where he's obviously not wanted? Boarding the Lost Light could open up opportunities for him that he wouldn't get back home. And if it doesn't work? Well, he can at least say that he tried.

I was under the impression that the reason why a lot of the crew of the Lost Light left like they did was because they were simply tired of the war and all the fighting. They saw their chance to get away from the conflict and they took it.

As far as characters who haven't had their proper time in the spotlight go, I think the greatest victim of that so far is Brainstorm. He's been in the main character list this whole time--in the top row, even!--but besides walking around with his inventions, giving people said inventions, cowering at the Sparkeater and Fort Max, and a few quick exposition dumps, he hasn't been focused on at all. And hell, most of the time the fans seem to forget that he exists in the first place! I can't tell you how many times I've seen people list the members of the MTMTE cast and even mention guys like Atomizer, Siren, and Dipstick yet forget to list Brainstorm. Roche even forgot to draw him in that MTMTE line-up art he did! And it's pretty darn sad when one of the official artists forget that you exist.  

However, I think his time in the spotlight might be coming up soon, especially if that theory about him being the one talking to Chromedome behind the door in issue #12 is correct.

 

surprised i havn't heard much about Whirl's avatar in this issue, was nice little surprise ha

 

Loved the issue. The Mary Sue line made me laugh really hard. Also Whirl's avatar is awesome. Reminds me a little of Tiny Tina from Borderlands (in theme, not appearance).

It's interesting to see some dark twists on the "happier" characters like Tailgate and Swerve.

I feel like Rewind's recovery happened too fast and it was odd to not see Chromedome present. Maybe I just want more about them.

Only downside was that the avatars were not as detailed as on the cover.

 

Yeah, I'm with you on that, and Swerve too, even a throwaway line like Rung's about their injuries would have been nice, it felt a bit glossed over. Someone raised a good point about Chromedome and Rewind not being able to remember what he was up to. I reckon that he's taken the opportunity whilst everyone's away to go and have a chat with the owner of the mystery voice, which as we know isn't going to lead to anything good. Did he tell Rewind about it and then Shadowplay him to forget about it when he objected? Dunno, but that seems to be the implication.

The Avatars were never going to be as detailed, and I'm kinda glad that a couple of them were slightly different. Skids was much more satisfying in issue then if it had been the same as on the cover. Disappointed that Mary Sue didn't have big bushy eyebrows though.