I just saw RotF last night for the first time and I walked away with a gaping plot hole looming in my mind. I'd like to be upfront that I have never read a comic, and I have not seen the cartoons in 15+ years, so that is why I'm turning to the experts. Fallen = Prime Optimus = Prime Megantron = Kick-butt Decepticon, but not a prime "The Fallen can only be defeated by ANOTHER prime"... Something said repeatedly throughout the movie. Would it not be logical then that in the movie continuity, a Prime can only be defeated by another Prime? If this is true... then they counter their own continuity by allowing Megatron to defeat Optimus. Or... are they saying that Megatron IS a Prime as well? During the final battle of Transformers 1, Optimus did call Megatron brother... but I don't recall anything that ever pointed to Megatron being a Prime. Don't get me wrong... I think Megatron is awesome and really should be doing far more damage in these movies, but if there is something special about what it takes to defeat a Prime, then the movie has a plot hole big enough for Unicron to dance around in...
It's unlikely that Megatron is a Prime. Optimus probably just called him that because they were "partners in crime" on Cybertron, both ruling over the planet.
Ok, I agree with that assessment. So if he is not a prime, then why was he able to destroy Optimus when only a Prime can defeat another Prime?
It says that only a Prime is awesome enough to defeat The Fallen, but never that a Prime is needed to defeat Optimus.
You are assuming that "only a prime can defeat another prime". We have no reason to believe this. All that is stated is "only a prime can defeat the fallen". We don't know why this is, but clearly it cannot be solely because the fallen is a prime.
Well, Megatron's "defeat" of Optimus was only temporary, if we're getting technical. And the 6 other original Primes together couldn't really "defeat" The Fallen either. So I don't think it's a Prime = Prime equation. I accepted it as: A Prime was needed to defeat The Fallen, given how everything had played out prior to the final battle. Because he says "only a Prime can defeat me", not "only a Prime can defeat a Prime." And Optimus even needed a boost to be able to beat The Fallen in a fight. it may not be very logical, but the plot is never contradicted, therefore, no plot hole.
Option 1: One of the 7 first transformers (a Prime) can only be defeaten by another Prime or one of his descendants (In this case Optimus). But a descendant of a Prime can be defeaten by anyone, because of them not being a "full-blooded" Prime. So what I'm trying to say is: -The Fallen (a Prime) can only be defeaten by another Prime OR a descendant of a Prime (Optimus). So Megatron or whoever can't defeat him. -Optimus (a descendant) can be killed by everyone. Thus explaining why Megatron could kill him. Option 2: The "prophecy" means that THE FALLEN can only be defeaten by a Prime (or it's descendants). So every other Prime and it's descendants can be killed by everyone. Explaining why Optimus could be defeaten. Conclusion: -The Fallen can only be defeaten by a Prime or a descendant. -Every other Prime and a descendant can be killed by EVERYONE. Personally I prefer Option 1, because it gives all the Primes (including The Fallen) a god-like feeling, but Option 2 makes The Fallen look more powerful then his brothers, which I think sucks. So Option 1 it is for me.
If only a Prime can defeat a Prime, this probably only counts for the first thirteen or seven or sixpack Primes..all the Primes coming after them are less and less 'pure' Primes, because they are somehow offspring of offspring of offspring of the Primes..or however that works for the movie robots. In any way, this bond is alot weaker with Optimus since he doesn't belong to the originals. It seems to me nobody could defeat the original Primes except Primes themselves, but people CAN kill Primes that are not the originals. edit: jostru managed to post while I was typing my own, but yeah..option 1 is what I'm trying to say.
This was a plot point in the movie. It is the reason why the other 6 Primes hid the key, because The Fallen was stronger than them (and presumably they could not defeat him).
Well, I actually mean it makes him look more then them. I don't know how to put this... it just doesn't feel right... they all should be equals, but it makes The Fallen look more like a God and the others like normal transformers. Know what I'm saying?
Yeah it does not make sense that the Fallen would be special among his brothers. He's the same, he looks the same..he just happens to be stronger (where others might be smarter, or faster, etc.) I don't think it was the intention to make the Fallen special among his brethren as in option 2.
I categorize "Only a prime can defeat another prime." as a popular belief that is more of a placebo than an actual fact. I'm sure, say, Brawl could obliterate the Fallen if he wished to and so forth.
Optimus is a descendent which means that he has enough "Prime" in him to be able to defeat the primes but not enough to be indestructable to all but the primes.
The Fallen says only a Prime can kill him. He is only referring to himself. At no point does he expand that to include other Primes, so this does not effect other Primes such as OPtimus. Once Megatron kills Prime he says "finally the last Prime is dead", which tells us that Megatron is not a Prime. Another reason why Megatron is not a Prime is because if he was a Prime he would have killed the Fallen himself. Megatron's personality does not allow him to take orders from others. Only when it is convenient, and one he discovers the sundail he would no longer need him.
alright heres a real plot hole thats been buggin the crap out of me. forgive me if its been mentioned. in tf1 the secretary of defense says there wasnt any survivors of the base attack in katar(sp?) except for the 4 or 5 army dudes they didnt know about until they picked them up later on. in rotf where the hell did the general dude of NEST come from? he was the same guy in the base at katar. (im too lazy to look up "official" names so bear with me here) if you remember him, hes the guy that told blackout to "power down now" and "have your crew step out or we will kill you" if there wasnt any survivors at the base and he wasnt with the 4 or 5 gi's then how did he survive?
