Calling the PRIMUS and the Multiverse origins GOD COMPLEX origins for the human mind.

They are not. They have been been expanded and explained through further development that they and sparks are energy life forms and the Multiverse was a result of the dimensional shift. And the Multiverse are parallel timelines.

It hasn't been a GOD origin since the late 80's marvel universe. There is plenty of science fiction in the existing multiverse origin that has been well established and has lots of room to be expanded. I see no reason to un-invent 25 years of TFs because some people have issues with 'gods and religion' when those origins have nothing to do with religion.

 

You have no problem with "un-inventing" the designs of the TFs for the movie series. You don't have a problem with a lot of those "un-inventions". Why do you now suddenly get all uppity when the god complex is thrown out?

 

Just a thought: the film Transformers needing energon to live forever reminds me of the Norse gods, who needed special apples to live forever.

Now to the question at hand: from the very start of the film franchise's development, I always imagined a combination of the Quintesson and Primus origins, where the former found a way to give physical form to the All Spark, which makes up Primus' consciousness anyway, and eventually He created the robots. I suppose the Primes may have fought off the Quintessons or they may have already left having exploited the energon radiation from the Cube, I'm not one to go into too much detail since I'm not a screenwriter.

 

Because I have yet to see a single thing about the movie origins that contradicts the 'multiverse' origins. The multiverse origin basically allows every universe to be totally unique as long as it follows 3 things: Parallel timeline, Primus's physical body and sparks.

Movie universe is capable of fitting all 3 of those.

Hell, even metallic robo-evolution is capable of being in the multiverse. Basically anything is. Every origin is capable of having ultimate freedom but still being part of the multiverse as long as the source of the existence revolves around the physical asteroid that represents Primus's energies entering the physical universe ended up with. Is Primas a Living creature? is he a dead asteroid that things happened around? who knows but that is the multiverse.

So poo-pooing the multiverse/primus origins because it is 'god worship' is false. he is an energy being from another dimension that entered the physical realm in all timelines simultaneously and his energies were converted into physical matter, IE: an asteroid. And then an infinite number of 'natural results' happened which all seem to result in Transformers.

Of all the Origins, I think the Go-Bot's one probably the most realistic one of all of them and closest to real science today as we know it.

 

As bitter as ever and still denouncing other people's views as wrong. Wow, you're really something huh? Only your way or the highway.

I am going to stop talking to you now. Because as it is with everything else - you will not listen to another point of view. There have been many series that use the Primus origin thing before and you again will not tolerate a new take. Just let go dude - you aren't always right. In fact, in the realm of opinions, you are wrong.

 

All I said was the Primus/Multiverse origin is Science fiction and you called it 'god complex' and Religion. You don't have to like the Primus origin, but it isn't god worship and people who like it are capable of liking it without being someone who needs a 'god' model to explain things to him. It is Science fiction just the way metallic evolution or the Go-bots origin would be.

Did I not say that the evolution that you suggested, would fit the multiverse established fluff just fine? But the justification that it is better because it is 'science' is odd because that is no more or less science than any of the other ideas, multiverse included. I think there is plenty of room for more series in the multiverse. I just see no reason to completely obliterate the multiverse and start a new series completely devoid of any and all similar aspects to other franchises and all possible connections to the multiverse.

If you dislike the multiverse and Primus because it has been done a lot, that is also valid. But instead you seemed to need to bring religion and god into it and try to paint that as "God Complex". It isn't enough not to simply not like something, you must personally insult those who favor that thing you dislike.

 

I really love this concept as an explanation for the movie-verse Allspark. Although, it adds a potential ambiguity. Is the Allspark on Earth the one that originated on Cybertron, or is it another Allspark?

 

Eh. If I tackled the origin of the Transformer race, it'd have to be in a rebooted franchise, and then made simple enough for a general audience to buy into it whether it's B.S. non-science or not.

That said, I'd pull a Star Trek and have Voyager 1, at some distant point in the future, hurling through a space-time warp of some kind that thrusts it back to the very beginning of the universe, its arrival generating the conditions that led to the Big Bang. The dead satellite itself - as the result of the various elements in comes into contact with - collects spores that meld with its metallic structure, causing it to eventually evolve into a techno-organic planetoid which its dominant species comes to call Cybertron, and the Golden Record contained within - with augmentation and adaptation as the result of its creations' maintenance over the eons - becomes the basis for Vector Sigma...thus going at least some way to explain why there are "male" and "female" Transformers and why they seem to be fluent in our languages when they first arrive on Earth.

In addition, when the internal geological processes started re-powering the planetoid's "core", it started "traveling" across the cosmos back to the boundaries of our solar system - in keeping with Voyager 1's original mission - and took up a permanent orbit in the closest star system to our own, Alpha Centauri (as per the planet's given original location in the Marvel books). To do this the planet periodically generated gravitational and electromagnetic disturbances to create supernovas whose force it could channel to "push" it along to its destination - and as Alpha Centauri existed prior to our own sun, Cybertron likely passed through what is now our solar system via such a supernova, in essence creating our solar system.

Basically the idea is meant to be a big paradox. Hey, I said it'd be B.S.  

 

Sorry nkelsch, but I think I may have been the one to coin "God Complex" in my original response to Superion33.

My only issues with the Primus/Unicron dynamic is that it's too saturated to the point where there isn't really more to be done with it other than a rehash.

Henceforth, I would be down with re-inventing the socio-religious aspect of Cybertronian life just to offer a new take on things.

The only thing that I would caution is if the more religious/philosophical side would actually be relevant (and if so, how much) to the story that the movie series is trying to tell.

The whole origin of the All Spark points to it being made by something greater that is far more advanced. Whether that's the Quints, Primus, God, or something else is up for the movie writers to decide (granted, it may have been better to have used part of the second movie to have actually explained the All Spark's purpose and origins a bit more than show us a shard that somehow was left in Sam's D-Day shirt from TWO years ago. Did that thing not get washed?).

 

I don't see how Primus is anything but a god in the Transformers mythos. God/supernatural force/whatever. He/It is that creation source.

There are many ways to have a universe without having to resort to something creating everything. I know the human mind finds it hard to grasp - but things could have happened all on their own, randomly. Or they could just have been that way for all time.

Eitherways, the god power has already been done by the TF mythos, why not break free from it and start anew? What if its not connected to your multiverse at all? Is it so wrong if it isn't connected to your multiverse? If your multiverse is the possibility of any and ALL ideas existing WITHOUT any limitations whatsoever (ie no 3 rules of nkelsch), then I'd be all for that. But I don't think thats what you're saying.

To me, I think it would be very nice to have the "metal beings" take on TFs. Have the metal beings evolve into robots.

I want a TF series with as little mystical mumbo jumbo as possible. They are already giant transforming alient robots. Add in the disguise concept or a war concept or a search mission concept on top of that, and thats enough. You don't see Batman using Deus Ex Machinas. He's just a crazy dude in a Halloween costume. He can't fly. He doesn't have super powers or magic or anything along those lines. Yet his stories are very interesting.

Can we not just leave it at giant transforming alien robots and leave the hocus pocus out of it?

 

I Would stay far away from any kind of "GOD" type scenario. Anything with Primus is boring and uninteresting. I'd add to the Quintesson origins. It's far more original and relevant to Transformers. Plus much more interesting with better possibilities. We have enough "GOD" stuff in our lives as humans as it is. Just my  

 

You keep saying GOD and Mystical mumbo jumbo and hocus pocus. I don't see why Primus is any more a 'god' than Q from Star Trek. Why is Primus being an energy being from another plane of existence in our universe any more or less science than time traveling, parallel universes or advanced life forms of Star trek? I see many double standards here where people are purposefully trying to see god and religion and magic where there has shown not to be any. Constantly saying it is religion doesn't make it so.

It has been developed by multiple series into being a perfectly reasonable scientific origin with lots of room for freedom. I think people want to dismiss it as religion because they have a personal beef with religion in their own lives and are unwilling to entertain there being any scientific explanation to Primus and the multiverse.

Would it be such a horrible thing if Primus, the advanced energy being that lives in multiple dimensions when he sharded into the new shard of the Multiverse in his physical form became a barren rock where upon life evolved naturally based upon the metallic substances from the asteroid? No one said Primus had to be anything more or less than raw material in the physical plane. How many thousands of comic series start off with a singular universe origin and quickly become part of a multiverse or have parallel universes? I can hardly think of a single Sci-Fi or Hero series that DIDN'T have multiverses.

Along with all this anti-religion stuff, I see a suspicious need to explicitly have an evolution origin, The same coudl be said that the Human minds are so limited that we need things to emulate our own existence in order for us to understand things but that would be condescending and rude and just as false as when it is used the other way. Frankly, there is no more science behind robot metal evolution than there is energy beings crossing universes into ours and becoming an asteroid. It is all SCIENCE FICTION, not Hocus Pocus.

 

I second that, but then again thats probably clear in my OP. I don't see the issue with the Quint origin. Its always made perfect sense to me and I think the writers of the G1 show deserve credit for it.  

It could have been imagined far, far worse. Like evolving from robotic monkeys that in turn evolved from an electromagnetically charged ooze of naturally occuring solicon chips and...  

 

Yeah, technically, being built by another race or the 'go-bots' origin are the most plausible. But the nice thing about science fiction is things don't necessarily have to be plausible, usually just not impossible.

 

Personally I've never been a great fan of the TFs being created by another being, race or anything like that. It always means there's something or someone above them and it lessens the wonderment factor of the TFs for me a bit. An evolution by a series of natural factors at least means the TF can just be what they are and not have has to rely on stuff like Quintessons (I quite liked them in the movie, but once they got named as the creators of the TF I lost all positive feels about them) or Primus.
Does there really always have to be a higher power or master creator race for explaining away how everything came to be? That kind of stuff usually brings too much additional baggage with it that can take away from the adventures and importance of the TFs themselves.

 

It hasn't seemed to 'take anything away' in the past 25 years of the franchise since every series but the movieverse so far has been a confirmed member of the multiverse via the Primus origin through the universe and Armada comics.

I think the baggage seems to be with some of the fans, not the origins.

If they don't keep some of the core stuff like Sparks and physiology similar or the same, then are they transformers? Would Superman be Superman if he didn't come from Krypton and was a being made out of nanobots that gave him super powers on earth? Sure he can look the same and have the same powers, but would he be superman? That is what the argument for throwing 100% of the transformers documented existance out the window for another origin... "As long as they transform into shit, everything is ok".

I don't agree. People like superman because he is the son of Krypton and not a hive of Nanobots emulating a superhuman hero. People also like Transformers for being Sparks, coming from cybertron and being children of Primus in a Multiverse. The baggage comes with those who seem to have a problemw ith the science fiction of Primus because they have a personal issue with religion in general and not because 'it has been done'.

Maybe someone should tell the Batman Creators that killing his family when he was 8 "has been done" and needs to change for no reason.

 

If the Quint origin is true - then why have all the mumbo jumbo of the Matrix and ancestors in robot heaven? How exactly does a race create an entire planet?

 

And I'll gladly put my hands up to that because it's my personal preference and that's all. Couldn't give a mote of hairy arse what others think of it. It's why I started my post with the word 'personally', because it's my personal opinion of it and for me it does take away from the TF a bit for me.
Not fussed about any multiverse stuff either. I just take every series of TF as it's own series and don't feel the need to connect them all up through some multi-Primus dimensional shard splitting thing. To be honest I'd come across very little about it until this thread, not because maybe there's not much out there on it, but because I've not needed it to enjoy or explain away aspects of TF.
I'm not religious, but I'm not against Primus because of that. I just have a preference for a different origin for TF, the one which was just a simple explanation of some kind of evolution of natural gears and levers in the first issue of the TF Marvel comics and nothing more. That's all I need. To add anything else to it starts to make things more complicated and then it all becomes about the bigger things in the past than what I'm actually interested in, which is the lives of the TFs and the events they experience in their war. Certainly I'd rather have Primus have a hand in the creation of the TF than the Quintessons though. But actually I'd rather have the Primus that is just Cybertron and doesn't transform into a robot.

 

Well, in G1 did Prime also not venture into the Matrix and Autobot heaven? Then it was called the 'combined knowledge', but we all knew what it really was. Whats to say thats not what this was? 'combined knowledge of the ages'. The TFs only started to give it that name or metaphor of 'robot heaven'. Its an easy continutiy fix for TF3/4.

...'robot heaven', tee hee, reminds me of 'Red Dwarf'.
Kryton (android): 'No Silicon Heaven?...but where do all the calculators go?'  

 

Through the eons and millenia of time and through the vastness of space life has sprung forth on numerous worlds. It has grown developed and adapted to it's surroundings. But on one world, the world of Cybertron life evolved in a different manner. Lost to time was the original name for the planet we now know as Cybertron, and many stories exist as to why life has come to this point. Some speculate that they were built by another race for an unknown purpose, Others suggest a god like entity known as Primus, but there are others that suggest that originally life on Cybertron was organic and through millions of years of technological advancements in the feilds of bionic replacement and reconstruction the beings of Cybertron took they great leap from biological to Mechanical.
The reasons are as varied as the mechanoids that have sprung forth and have as many adherents. In time immemorial this was a great subject of debate and even dogmatic practice. but now on Cybertron a new war wages. not one of beliefs and history but one of survival and the future. For on Cybertron two factions have arisen. The Heroic Autobots and the Tyrannical Decepticons. Many generations have been sacrificed on this altar of war, and it has bled the once plentiful sources of Energon Cybertron once had. Now with every cycle is a fight to survive.


Hows that?