I've come to the conclusion that there's no way Jughead's core changed anything. There's just so many paradoxes and problems that would arise from that happening, that I see no way for the writers to possibly make it coherent. I'm theorizing that it wasn't Jughead exploding, but another time flash. Why? How? Season six bros.
I don't think Ben was supposed to be Judas. Maybe each leader of the others is a possible candidate to be Jesus. When Jacob said what about you to Ben maybe he was just asking him if he was going to disobey Locke and be killed in order to save everyone else and restore things to normal. Jacob visited everyone else as a backup plan to cause the incident and keep the time loop going. I also like the idea of the flash at the end being another time jump.
Hurley has got to be an important part somehow too. He's the only one who Jacob actually talked about the island to.
It kinda sucks how Locke goes through life, and has so many bad things happen to him. But he believes he has an important purpose, a destiny. And in the end, he ends up getting strangled and some sort of ancient Greek/Egyptian demi-god takes his form in order to convince Ben to kill another demi-god. Some destiny that is. Unless he gets resurrected by Jacob somehow, or Jacob inhabits his body, and we have a Locke Vs. Locke fight to the death in S6. God that would be badass.
What a season finale. So Jacob half revealed, still don't know his true nature. And who is the other dude? In the Bible, Jacob's name meant cheater, since he cheated/tricked his brother. But in the story, he ended up being the good guy still. Did this Jacob also cheat or trick the other dude, that he would want to find a proper way to kill him off? Plus, Locke died when his father pushed him out the window! And Jacob brought him back to life then. It also seems Jacob some how gave something to each main character, to make sure they were put on the right path? Like for Jack, Jacob could of given him the gift to heal people. To Sawyer, give him that goal to hunt down the real Sawyer. Jin and Sun to be together, which drove Jin to be obsessive/over protective when seen in Season 1. Kate, to cheat, lie, and steal, lol. Also, about the Cabin. The ash circle was suppose to be a barrier/gate. But if they thought Jacob was in the cabin, was the barrier to keep Jacob in the cabin, or maybe the other dude? We don't know who Locke really saw in the cabin originally. It was suppose to be Jacob who Ben took Locke to see, but could of been the other dude who was in there actually. What lies in the shadow of the statue? “He who will protect us all.” - Rough translation found at Lost-forums.
I agree too that the man we saw at the beginning of the episode with Jacob, was the "new Locke" and that Locke is truly dead. I also agree that this "guy" is also the smoke monster. We've seen the monster take the shape of several people, alive or dead. I believe it/he is mad at Jacob for bringing people, like those on the Black Rock at the beginning of the episode (which was friggin cool btw), because it/he is the protector and guardian of the island and doesn't want outsiders messing it up. The so-called beings who originally governed the island must have made certain rules up and gave Jacob his powers and the monster his. Monster finally found a loop pole in the rule that it/he can't ever kill Jacob, and finally exploited it. The question though is who was then using Jacob's cabin? Why was he trapped there with the ash? Who moved the ash so he could escape? If he was trapped there for so long, how did Richard know to go to the foot instead of the cabin? What was it that Richard said to the question of "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" Who ARE those people that had Locke's body? Who?! In my opinion, all of these events are more interesting to me than whatever went on with Jack and the other people. I agree with whoever said it that by setting the bomb off, didn't change anything. And my basis for that is Chang's hand. We saw his hand damaged after the incident during the orientation film. I do believe that everyone, excluding Juliet, is still alive on the island, whether they are still in 77 or the blast pushed them forward to 07-08. I'll end this with one last question, how the hell is Jacob, Richard, the others, getting off the island??? My guess is teleportation.
Looks like we were writing about the same stuff at the same time, lol. Ilana, the chick that brought Sayid onto the Ajira flight, was visited by Jacob, which was shown in the flashback. She brought those other people with her to bring Locke's body to Jacob.
That does make sense. So she and her team must be a different group of the others, since Richard, who's been around for a long time, has never met her. Jacob must have created that question and answer thing so that the different groups of others can identify themselves to each other.
I disagree, that doesn't prove anything. I think the first "incident" could have been everything(include Chang's injury) we saw up until Juliet's decision to detonate the core. She had the variable free will to make a choice right then to change or not to change what was happening. Though it still may be that detonating the bomb results in the same events. As for the bomb not detonating when dropped and Juliet surviving the fall... well it's probably mostly literary contrivance but an "explanation" could be that while the EM energy pulls metal to it, when it gets close enough to the pocket the energy slows the velocity of those objects. So it slowed the metal bomb enough to not have an "impact" and not detonate and also slowed Juliet who was wrapped in the chain so she didn't die instantly when hitting the bottom.
It's entirely possible, and truly up to the writers at this point, but why would Juliet randomly deviate from history? If every single minute detail, including Jack dropping the bomb down the hole already happened, where is the catalyst that would make someone act differently? Out of everyone, Juliet randomly makes a different choice? It makes no sense and does a discredit to the writing. I think that the bomb did not cause the incident, nor did it change history by preventng it. It was threre to intervene at the moment the earth was on the verge of detruction, and it already happened. The reason we see Jacob in their lives in the past giving them a "nudge" as he called it was to ensure they got on the plane and played their parts in saving the world. Or at the very least saving the island.
One argumnet against this is the inverted LOST logo at the end, which could indicate a change of some sort... But then again, Richard and the rest of the gang in the present day, if they changed history, their entire storyline would be for naught. Also, Richard said he saw them die, which means he is living in the future they created, which we see is not changed. I think what he saw as them dying was maybe them returning to the present time.
It's a credit to the writing. Faraday said people were the variables and had free will to change things. So that's exactly what it boils down to: Juliet using her free will to change or not change things. Why would she randomly deviate? It's not random. Obviously throughtout the episode and the whole season Juliet has had mixed emotions about what to do. There are pros and cons to detonating or not detonating. In one possible history she decided one way and in another she decided the other.
We can't presume that Juliet changed anything by detonating the bomb. For all we know, Chang injures his arm regardless of the timeline and free will of others. My guess is the bomb changed NOTHING. It was definitely cool that she lived up to her namesake though. In Shakespeare's play, Juliet drinks the poison giving the impression she has died, only to wake up later on and kill herself for real after discovering Romeo's death. Here, our Juliet gets pulled down into the magnetic chasm to save Sawyer, but then we discover that she has survived and makes the choice again to sacrifice herself. Good stuff by the writers, IMO. It was a nice surprise to see Bernard and Rose again. I would guess their skeletons are the ones in the cave in season 1. Perhaps they went to hide there when the bomb went off? New Locke is the smoke monster. I, for one, was surprised but I never thought too much about what was in the steel box to care, to be honest. I was thinking that the ashes surrounding the cabin prevented the smoke monster from trespassing, but with the line being broken, it forced Jacob to the statue: hence we see from previous episodes the smoke monster manifestations of Christian and maybe others (Claire?) in the cabin. Illana and the Ajira group looked distressed when they saw the line of ashes broken, suggesting that they were worried about what got in, and not out. As for the previous comments about religion's injection into the episode being a turn-off......what? This whole show has been stuffed with underlying religious themes from the get-go. This episode was no different. Go back to the pilot episode where Locke and Walt are playing their game of backgammon. The whole story of this show is clearly defined in their little conversation. It's a couple of minutes and is on YouTube if anybody's curious. So much to digest still.....I'll have to rewatch it and see what others are saying.
But if that's the case, their free will would have already changed things multiple times. It's lame if they say that people have free will, then demonstrate that that same free will has actually led to what has happened over, and over, and over, and over. Sayid's free will led him to try to kill Ben, but that led to him being taken to the others and "loosing his innocence." Jack's free will led him to try to let Ben die, and that supplemented Sayid's actions. Farraday's free will led him to attempt to change history by confronting his mother, which led him to get shot, which we knew already happened as Eloise in the future knowingly sent him to his death. Jack's free will led him to drop the bomb, which we know already happened because those actions led to Mile's dad messing his hand up. Everyone of these actions was a demonstration of freewill, with the intent of changing history, and all of them, failed. So what makes Juliet's decision significant? there was no catalyst that allowed her to deviate from her actions that no one else had. So if Juliet's freewill changed history while the others did not, it's nothing more than a random occurrence chocked up to chance, which is a cop out. In fact, history could change all time because free will would randomly lead peole to make randomly different choices.
She didn't fall down to save Sawyer... She was trying to survive. She held on until the last moment humanly possible. And when she woke up, she didn't sacrifice herself. She was dead. No one was going to get her out of there. It was an act of desperation to either a) finish what they started or b) anger that everything went so wrong and she was about to lose everything that was dear to her. I really don't believe that, aside from the namesake, this Juliet is a parallel of the Shakespearean tragedy.
I totally disagree. Of course she wanted to live and hung on for as long as she could to Sawyer's hand. However, the camera pans to a big metal bar hanging over them that's about to cave in, suggesting that it's about to take Sawyer with it. Juliet appears to see it and I think she deliberately lets go. I am going to rewatch it, but that's what I'm sticking to for now. It's easier to prove that Juliet is a classic tragic heroine figure like the Shakespearean character than not. It's obvious to me, and many others who are much bigger fans of the show than me. These writers are totally capable of doing such a thing.
I understand your points, and generally I agree. I like the "whatever happened, happened" rule and wanted it to stay. However rules are made to be broken. The constant reinforcement of the rule they've done is really set up for "the exception that proves the rule". Also, when Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof talked about Faraday's free will theory they mentioned something about someone choosing to do something "significant". Deciding to detonate a nuclear bomb is pretty significant decision. So that at least avoids the "butterfly effect" deal of every little every day decision changing the future. I'm not too crazy about that direction and don't want to debate the pros and cons, just letting you know how I've interpretted what they have fed us. And hey, I'm not convinced this did necessarily change things. Maybe it is what always happened, or maybe not. I just definitely think Chang's injury is not definitive proof that it's one way or the other. Remember Miles raised the issue of whether this will prevent or cause the known future events but this was quickly brushed over. I think that's setup for season 6, for the audience: Did it change or did it not change?
Yes they are capable of it, but citing Shakespeare is usually a sign of newbie writers trying to impress their peers (I don't mean you, I mean them). Nowadays, paralleling Shakespeare, especially something as obvious as Romeo isn't really considered "innovative and fresh". I'm a Shakespeare fan, (way before the attitude of enjoying it was associated with pretending to be smart), and I did not see a parallel, aside from the namesake, in which case, I could find Jame's rogue attitude stemming from his Mark Twain-created namesake. As a matter of fact, one of the things that kinda bugged me about the episode (despite loving it) is how bloody selfish some of the characters were being, Juliet included. Jack's reason for blowing up hundreds of people was because he lost Kate, and Juliet's reason for agreeing was because of her jealous feelings towards James eying Kate. So she was going to put aside her resolve to save everyone because of a simple emotion called jealousy. Romeo and Juliet was pure eternal love, with no question of loyalties, which is why their tragedy was heart-felt. I believe James and Juliet love eachother, but Juliet didn't die to save him because the plan was for all of them to die anyway, and her reason for agreeing with this in the first place was because James glanced at Kate.
Brilliant episode. I feel that Jacob knew he would die. I think that he may have felt that Ben was a possible "candidate", although for what I can't say. Ben failed the test though. Maybe they are looking for someone that can eliminate the anti-Jacob. Most likely, Jacob and his counterpart were exiled to the island to live out an eternal battle of good vs. evil. Obviously we weren't made aware of the rules of this battle aside from not being able to inflict bodily harm on each other directly. I love the way the show is going and look forward to seeing it through.
