Knock Off Cliffjumper Upgrade Kit warning

Discussion in 'Transformers Toy Discussion' started by Venksta, Sep 17, 2008.

  1. nkelsch

    nkelsch Do you know this Icon? TFW2005 Supporter

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    Trademarks and copyrights are two different things.

    If they are using Hasbro's trademarks, then Hasbro does have a say.

    They are not using Hasbro's copyrights unless they are recasting parts from hasbro figures.

    Unless declared public domain by the copyright owner, he has a right to his own creations. Since 1988, in the US and most countries in the world, Copyright is automatic upon creation. Registering only gives you the ability to claim statutory damages and sue for attorney fees and damages in the US. Your works are still protected without being officially registered and you still have the right to determine how they are used or not used.

    Pretty much any country in the WTO recognizes copyrights are instant upon creation of the work and do not require registration to be legal and binding.
     
  2. y2jversion1

    y2jversion1 Rent this space today!

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    Bootleg Central: China seems to be an exception to this rule. If FP is China-based than I'm surprised that they didn't expect this to happen sooner.
     
  3. ricky503

    ricky503 Well-Known Member

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    This is no different than companies who make aftermarket parts for cars. There are very few aftermarket companies who are actually licensed/approved to make the aftermarket parts. For those actual aftermarket parts that perform well or have a unique look to them, there are plenty of knock-off's of them available. Same goes for CJ kit and probably the Magnus kit later on down the line.

    As for those who complain about the initial price point for the product, the buyer is paying for the ingenuity, engineering, and production of the kit. If you were the creator of the kit and were soley building them on your own or even hiring someone/people to build it, think about how much you invested in this project and the price you would charge for your time and effort.
     
  4. nkelsch

    nkelsch Do you know this Icon? TFW2005 Supporter

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    Why should they have assumed the risk of creating more pieces in the first item in a new endevour without guaranteeing it would be a success? And you are not factoring in the costs of low-run plastics. So you lack Business model understanding and the costs of such production.
    Wrong, the price is reflected of the production process.
    Reproduction is deceptive... they are not being clear and truthful unless they say 'illegal bootleg'
    the pricepoint was 30$, low run plastics cost near that to create. Retailers screwed up not FP and FP corrected that with city commander.
    Let's see you start a business and have your first product be a huge mass-market production run and see how well you do assuming the risk. They made as much as they felt they could sell. And it is reasonable for them to protect themselves.
    Low run plastic molds don't last long. Destroying the mold often means the mold was destroyed because it was used up. 300 castings, I wouldn't be surprised if it was rubber molded instead of metal or aluminum. Rubber molds don't last long.
    The problem is, the 'market' has rules and one of them is copyright. This other group needs to pay a sculptor to make their 'OWN' product instead of making money off the R&D of another company. FP paid the time and effort to develop the kit. City commander is a feat of engineering. This bootlegger didn't do any of that so they are competing and pricing based on raw production costs alone. That is totally unfair and in the 'market' is illegal. But you are supporting it and claiming 'the free market at work' because you are getting something personally for cheaper not caring who you harm in the process.
     
  5. Venksta

    Venksta Render Project Creations TFW2005 Supporter

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    First off, I've had the chance to check out City Commander in person, and transform it. Its not a bunch of plastic pieces you pull apart and stick on. There is more to it, and you can see a lot of work that went into it, to make sure everything fit, along with the way it transforms. If you ever see it in person, it looks like an official product. Saying that, because there is a thin line, and their doing this as fans, they can't mass produce this like Hasbro does with their official toys. If they did, there would definitely be a greater chance of Hasbro coming after them, if not already. Plus, mass producing this would hurt them. There is not guarantee 5,000, 7,000, or even 10,000 pieces would all sell out. Plus, they would have to find retailers to pick them up and sell them. The group is just a few people at the most, and its already a lot of work just designing and producing the products. How would they sell all those pieces themselves?

    As for Cliffjumper, and originally making more. When images were first shown online, the community didn't give it a warm welcome. This most likely helped the group decide to go with selling them in asia, along with a smaller quantity. Once the kit was released, the demand soared. If there was way more interest shown before the release, maybe they would of reconsidered how limited the CJ kits would of been.

    In all, if you think FansProject is in it for the money, the City Commander armor would look more like a G1 brick, then what we are actually getting.


    Great point. A lot people don't even think about that when complaining about the prices. Its like the group is only selling this, everything else was magic, so it should be cheap as possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
  6. y2jversion1

    y2jversion1 Rent this space today!

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    This is why there's such a thing as a beta run and test market, to evaluate the market and the reaction.

    See above - the initial beta run in the test market would be somewhat costlier than the production run, however if the beta run would be successful, this would impact the price point of the production run.

    See above again.

    re·pro·duc·tion (rpr-dkshn)
    n.
    1. The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced.
    2. Something reproduced, especially in the faithfulness of its resemblance to the form and elements of the original: a fine reproduction of a painting by Matisse.
    3. Biology The sexual or asexual process by which organisms generate new individuals of the same kind; procreation.

    reproduction - definition of reproduction by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    See beta run/test market points. And I am speaking as part of a sports supplement company that develops bodybuilding products, beta testing is ALWAYS done prior to retail pricing and mass production. This not only provides you feedback regarding the product, but you also have time to analyze the pros and cons from the beta testers and possibly reevaluate the compound and if need be, do some more testing - or - it can give you an idea of how 'huge' the compound will be on the market and can then plan ahead with supply management.

    Goes back to poor planning on the business end.

    Apparently in Asia, there seems to be a lack of that copyright rule. It's a free-for-all.

    FP is not selling the kit any longer and as per the mold situation, cannot produce more until they fix the mold. If the bootleg is being sold as a reproduction without the FP logo, labels and certificate of authenticity - FP's reputation logically, should not be at stake.

    I've got 2 City Commander sets on preorder. This is not what I'm referring to. The engineering in City Commander is not what is in question here - it is the CJ kit of snap-on parts. For the rest, see above.

    See above re: testing.

    Actually you're wrong. It wouldn't look like a brick because that's too 1980's. If it looked like a brick, nobody would buy it. And you're only kidding yourself if you don't think FP is in it for the money - they know what fans like and they're only capitalizing on it and turning out a nice profit.
     
  7. DJCHARTERS

    DJCHARTERS Well-Known Member

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    dont thinks there is one point there i dont agree with really
     
  8. deliciouspeter

    deliciouspeter Back in Black TFW2005 Supporter

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    But...the REAL upgrade kit is a knock off.
     
  9. Ramrider

    Ramrider TF Art Lad

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    No it's not. It's not an official Hasbro or Takara product, but it never claimed to be. It's not a n ilegal copy of one of their products, it's something that FP researched, designed, sculpted and manufactured to work with one of their products. That's not even close to being the same thing.
     
  10. Venksta

    Venksta Render Project Creations TFW2005 Supporter

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    What I pointed out was do to you stating FP is in it for money only. If they were, it would be easier to follow Justitoy's route, and take something Hasbro/Takara has made, and make a different scaled size. For City Commander, all they would have to do is make it fit the Classics Optimus/Magnus mold. What I meant about a G1 brick, is that it would be easier for them to make the kit less advanced then the actual Classics toy its meant to be.

    There is no denying they are making money off of their products. They deserve it, especially if a lot of effort and time have been put into the product, just like anyone else would with a similar product. Any extra money they make also helps them fund new projects.
     
  11. Ramrider

    Ramrider TF Art Lad

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    And their eating. :p 
     
  12. Lucs

    Lucs This Guy!

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    I believe the KO part is refering to the gundam or whatever that big gun they used came from. I could be wrong though

    Oh yeah and I just checked out some pics of the new City Commander set, which looks awesome by the way. It totally uses the wheels from the Hasbro Ultra Magnus and that is and of itself is copyright infringement I believe. They KO'd his wheels so where does this conversation go now?

    I know the trailer would look weird with different wheels but c'mon FP ain't no saint
     
  13. Metal Chaos

    Metal Chaos The Spark of Chaos

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    They only copied his wheels so it'd match. I believe Hasbro and Takara both know about Fansproject and that neither have any issues with them making third party add ons.

    Real KOs claim to be made by Hasbro/Takara and they use the full mold and likeness of the character they create. FP makes addons for Classics and BT, KO Companies make the full figure from just about every line known to man. They also sale them as an original line as if they made them, it's theft.

    Reprolabels isn't bad, they make restorative stickers and decals to make old figures look new again as well as make newer figures resemble their older selves.

    Fans Project makes add ons that alter the appearance or gives better display quality to certain figures.

    KO companies sale entire figures thus taking away money from Hasbro/Takara.
     
  14. TM2 D-bot

    TM2 D-bot Forsight Into the Future Veteran

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    Hi guys I used to post here a long while back (even modded for a while). I still lurk around the boards but just re-registered today.

    I actually bought this "upgrade" without knowing it wasn't the official Fan's Project one. I knew the comic was missing, as also the certificate but just nudged it off as thinking the seller was just listing an opened item. The picture he uses seems to be the same as one I saw previously on the TFClub website, as are the blades and other stuff he's selling.

    Eitherways since I already took the plunge and sent him the money through Paypal, I'll let you guys know of the quality of this bootleg once I get it.

    BTW thanks to hazardousprime who also sent me a message through Ebay giving me a head's up.
     
  15. Lucs

    Lucs This Guy!

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    You make a very good point here about reprolabels. What's the difference really other than semantics. Hasbro makes stickers RL copies them and sells them for profit. Sure fans can't buy them anywhere else but it's still the same thing it seems. This "KO" company makes a copy of FP's item and sells it for profit. But the same thing applies here, fans cannot get this item for cheaper or perhaps at all with the small run of the item.

    I know a lot of people on this board don't care for rabidsquirrel but the owner told me one of his designers made a sweet figure and used a few gundam parts (if I remember correctly) and Bandai (or whoever owns gundam) told them to stop cuz they were using a few reproduced pieces from their toys to build it, this is my point with FP and the UM wheels being used. I have no real idea of how much takara or hasbro back FP or if they have a deal with them, but it seems like the same type of thing
     
  16. TM2 D-bot

    TM2 D-bot Forsight Into the Future Veteran

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    The biggest problem I see with this bootleg is that the only people that it is harming are those who already bought the official TFC upgrade kit. Fan's Project actually destroyed the molds and limited the production. They probably didn't see the overseas demand the kit would have since retailers were only supposed to sell them in Asian countries.

    This bootleger is actually quite savvy going after a quick easy buck. The demand is there, if their wasn't he wouldn't have put money up front for the molds and an original kit to copy from.

    This reminds me of Hasbro/Takara. Up until they started releasing the Encore line they didn't give a damn about chinese or korean knockoffs being sold on Ebay. Once it started eating into their present profits they took action. How many times didn't fans send letters and emails warning them of the situation and they did nothing.

    Fan's Project is screwed though, since they most probably haven't copywrit anything (costs money and eats into slim profits), plus they don't have any physical evidence anymore that they did prototype the kit. Hell as far as we know, this guy could have probably bought a prototype or a discarded mold and set out to mass produce. To many variables and to many assumptions.

    I already got screwed out of 90 bucks for a fake CF kit, I just hope the quality doesn't ram me over :( 
     
  17. DJCHARTERS

    DJCHARTERS Well-Known Member

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    god or bad copying the wheels is the same thing, its copying from an already existing product. like it or not even reprolabels are unless they have some kind of deal with hasbro. i use them all the time but dont see myself as supporting the downfall or the fandom by supposting knock offs......

    copyng is copying. although as i type this im waiting for my reprolabels to arrive and about to place and order for city commander
     
  18. TM2 D-bot

    TM2 D-bot Forsight Into the Future Veteran

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    The same can be said about Ken when he started Transrepro, and I remember everyone being happy they could finally have a Marlboro Wheeljack :rolleyes: 
     
  19. Venksta

    Venksta Render Project Creations TFW2005 Supporter

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    Wrong. The wheels on City Commander are not casts made off the real wheels from the Prime/Magnus toy. FP made a new sculpt based off the design of the wheels. And they even went as far to only put in 3 holes through the spokes instead of 5, so people can't say its casted off the real wheels. The prototype did have 5 holes, but then went with 3 on the production. Also, there are other differences with the wheel, if you see it in person. Its not as deep as the cab wheels. All the differences aside, if they went with a different design, fans would be complaining. So its a tough decision, but they did what they could by sculpting their own wheel, and it should be good enough. Trying to call City Commander a knockoff, is really stupid. Since a fan needs the Ultra Magnus/Prime figure first, this gives hasbro/tarkara money before people plunk it down to get a City Commander kit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2008
  20. Lucs

    Lucs This Guy!

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    After looking at the trailer again on Tformers here Transformers Toys News and Reviews G1 to Movie - TFormers.com I can tell the wheels are not exact but I doubt they made a different sculpt entirely. It looks like instead of 6 spokes there are 3. They simply filled in the gaps between every other spoke to make 3 spokes from the existing 6 and if the wheel is thinner they could have cut cut down the original to make it just that much different. They still used an existing toy with modification to make a profit