Avatar 2

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by jackets, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. Purple Heart

    Purple Heart Some other time..

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    I’ll admit that sometimes I think James Cameron says some dumb stuff, but we all do at times. When your a celebrity it is televised to the world.


    As for Avatar, while it’s not the most mindblowing movie of all time, Avatar was a fucking technological marvel of movie making.


    A lot of people want to hate Avatar because they don’t like James Cameron, and a lot of people want to hate James Cameron because they don’t like Avatar. But most of the hatred I see seems to be bandwagon hate. It’s the cool thing to shit on and everyone wants an easy target.


    Cameron took a long time to make each movie, they are his passion project, and not only are they marvels of movie making and animation, thousands of other people worked on them to make them happen too. Shitting on the movies just because you want to hate James Cameron is a disservice to thousands of other people, and it’s pretty petty behavior that like I’d imagine from the stereotypical fat nerd on the internet we all try not to be.
     
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  2. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    He's always allowed to, but screaming at randos on the internet to "shut the fuck up" for saying that his passion project was only successful because it was a spectacle and the story was mediocre only makes one look like a lunatic.


    Maybe read the article I posted. He was having a fit for the part you said in bold. Cussing at move critics and audience members for suggesting that the plot had no long term impact and it was only successful because of the technical aspects is petty.
     
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  3. Bumblethumper

    Bumblethumper old misery guts

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    Most of that is just a lowbrow comedy routine, and in a world where everyone is in their own private media bubble, in order to get the laughs you need something that everyone is familiar with. On a surface level, many of these observations ring true, but in context, there isn't much substance to them.

    I don't think you read the article you posted. Either that or your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

    Here is the quote, which they harvested from a different publication:
    It's a candid remark; I guarantee you he wasn't screaming when he said it, nor was he telling anyone to "shut the fuck up". What he's saying is that when such people actually watch the movie they realize how superficial and irrelevant those criticisms actually are and they shut up about them.
     
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  4. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    No, he's talking about how people online say that the first one has nothing deep but still go watch it again. A guy who I used to work with watched it eight times in theaters and he admitted that it was for the spectacular 3D, and the story was mediocre. Cameron was trash talking people who pointed this out as "trolls".

    Similarly he shit talks reviewers.
    “I can almost write this part of the review. ‘The agonisingly long three-hour movie…’ It’s like, give me a fucking break. I’ve watched my kids sit and do five one-hour episodes in a row."

    Yes, I used hyperbole, but then you have no room to complain considering that you compared the tree scene in the first film to 9/11.

    I don't hate Cameron nor the movie, but I dislike any time a creative type can't handle valid criticism of their work.
     
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  5. Bumblethumper

    Bumblethumper old misery guts

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    I don't see how anything Cameron has said is any worse or less classy than anything you have to say. I think it's beneath him, but he's perfectly entitled to address bogus attacks and trolling. I don't think most of the criticism is valid. It's about as perceptive as your smurf comments.

    The film is full of 'war on terror' rhetoric. I don't see how that's an unfounded comparison. It was an unthinkable outrage that galvanized them into action.
     
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  6. Gaastra

    Gaastra Well-Known Member

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    First reactions are out. Bad news is some are saying story is "paper thin" (so the first movie) however they ARE saying the 3-d effects are incredible and breathtaking and characters are likable!

    So even with weaker story people really enjoyed the film.

    'Avatar 2' First Reactions Praise James Cameron Masterpiece - Variety

    So, recap. Incredible 3-d effects. Fun characters. Thin plot. Good thing no one goes to avatar films for plot. Sounds like the first with better effects. Could see this doing well if word 3-d is great spreads again like the first.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
  7. Deathcatg

    Deathcatg Well-Known Member

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    The reactions I've seen across Twitter tonight seem to be in the area of "James Cameron is kind of a dick, but wow that film is phenomenal!!".
     
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  8. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

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    Sounds like it's simply a visual spectacle as I bet most people aren't talking about the plot.
     
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  9. Beastwarsfan95

    Beastwarsfan95 Putting the ‘Bi’ in Bionicle.

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    As with any chemical it's not the substance it's the dosage. Literally anything could be called a 'toxin' if it's in excessive dosage. Water is lethal in large amounts, bananas are packed with radioactive potassium, etc. Bulls used in runs and fights are intentionally hopped up on excessive Testosterone for "sport"*. Too much Estrogen can also be a bad thing but you don't see people screeching about 'Toxic Feminity'.

    Either Cameron d9net know basic biochemistry or this is just a case of 'say something to piss off man babies' that you see alot of on the hellsite known as Twitter.


    *If you can even call screwing with an animal until it's too exhausted to stand and then kill it a sport.
     
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  10. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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    I am one of those people who get a headache from 3D, and so a lot of the wow factor is lost on me.
     
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  11. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    I think this is what always screws with me brain an' all. These movies are not cheap, shat-out-the-door moneygrabs offering a cheap thrill. They're these incredibly labour-intensive, calculated and collaborative undertakings that span years of development before, during, and after filming.

    And this is the best story they come up with? I'm not one to talk, but I don't understand how you can make a movie for this long with this much effort and have such a weak storyline and characters. You'd think it'd be the opposite, with overstuffed plot and too much attention to details that perhaps should've been trimmed. Excess characters and perhaps even convoluted storytelling as more and more creative ideas pile on, but it's the opposite. It's like they keep shaving bits off until you're left with an emaciated wick of a story. Effects are nice but they don't stick with you the way emotional beats and characters do.

    I don't hate Cameron as a filmmaker or person, and he can have a fragile ego or be impervious to criticism for all I care. I put him on the same professional level as Michael Bay. No hate, no love, he's just a carnival barker for the modern age. All I know of Avatar 1 is that... blue cat people fell in love. I actually don't remember much beyond that and the incredibly generic villain with non-existent motives. I don't remember the main hero doing anything. I don't remember any time I felt an emotion. Even flawed movies can stick with me if there's a sense of humanity to them.

    I find it mildly depressing that Avatar's success is owed entirely to its visuals. And I know that's not a hot new take, but it's still how I feel, not only because it assumes visuals supersede story to the mass audiences, but makes me think how many genuinely amazing movies out there perhaps don't "measure up" to audiences because they're not a visual spectacle. I don't hate Avatar or anything, but it's like this weird irreconcilable math puzzle to me where the advantages to of its effects don't fill in for the weakness of its plot, yet is still regarded so highly despite it's near-universal deriding based on that. It's like the TF movies only at least those were pushed out every two years or so, so the quick turnaround accounted for the simplicity and constantly supplied appetite until even they dried up with TLK.

    Avatar has these incredible legs that have kept it going for so long and I don't know how the hell it got them.
     
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  12. Purple Heart

    Purple Heart Some other time..

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    Avatar is James Cameron’s passion project, something he really wanted to do. Sometimes, as a creator, as an artist, yoy want to create things because they are beautiful to you. They don’t have to be groundbreaking, they don’t have to be revolutionary. They can just be…. normal, and thats okay.



    Film is an art, and I can tell you Avatar is meant more as a work of art of film then a generic blockbuster. Is it revolutionary? From a technical standpoint, yes. From a non-technical standpoint? No. But thats okay, and it’s okay that James Cameron loves it so much.


    If I was in his shoes, my passion project would be a movie about warship anime girls that follows a guy trying to change the fate to save the women he loves and failing miserably the entire time. Would it be a revolutionary story? No. Would there be a lot of cool action sequences? Yes. Would it matter to anyone besides me that it exists? Not really. Does that matter? No.


    Avatar is no different to that.
     
  13. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    I'm not asking for revolutionary or groundbreaking, merely substance.

    I get art is subjective, and subjectively speaking I don't see the passion on display in Avatar or this sequel form what little I've seen or read from it. Or rather I don't feel it. I'm not saying the story is not commensurate to the time spent creating it, I'm saying the story barely feels to the level of a generic blockbuster despite being anything but.

    My problem, such as it is, with Avatar is that despite being one man's multi-year (and before you know it, multi-decade) passion project the end result feels like corporately distilled Hollywood box ticking. It is safely bland, inoffensive, palatable, and entirely machined to avoid activating any negative response from the brain. It's an iPhone, devoid of any personality, reduced to the simplest shape so as to appeal to the broadest audience. I'm not even saying that's bad, or that Cameron's wrong for creating that, just that it's strange that so much personal investment could produce something so sterile. That sounds super mean but it's the best way I can describe it.

    I feel like, going back to the subjectivity thing, art is all about that risk. That risk you take when expressing yourself and opening up how you feel to the rest of the world through something non-literal like art and its many forms. You're not just saying what you think, you're expressing how you feel, and that's what makes artists sometimes so defensive or vulnerable to criticism. Your art is you, and it's easy to feel like an attack on it is an attack on yourself even if it isn't. It sucks to create something with no right or wrong answers, spawned from your emotions, and have another person snub that. I want to make it clear that I not only understand that but have personally experienced it. Especially since non-artists often don't understand the vulnerability an artist has created for themselves simply by daring to put that creation out to be seen.

    So when I say Avatar feels antithetical to that very notion of risk, that the movie itself is so safe and formulaic and devoid of potential vulnerabilities via its creator's expression, that is why I find it strange. I'm not saying it's not art, but it doesn't feel like a passion project. I know it is, but it doesn't feel like it. It feels like every detail and decision was run by a focus group. It feels like an obsessive attempt to appeal to as many critics as possible and shield its creator from those criticisms, yet in doing so leaves itself toothless and ill-defined. He plugged every hole he could find, rounded every edge there was, and we're left with an egg. Featureless (in the metaphorical/storytelling sense, not visual) and devoid of personality or emotion, yet also incapable of drawing ire or disdain.

    Maybe that's why you have these stories of Cameron blowing up at critics? He scientifically created the most appealing, inoffensive creative work designed to appeal to as many people as possible, and in a way remove him of that risk I mentioned that comes along with expressing yourself, and he still gt flack. This is not an insult, BTW, and there's no blaming a man for being human, but thinking about it I can't help but think if I were in his shoes the thought of "how can you fuckers hate this when I spent so much time and effort making it unhateable!?" would probably cross my mind.

    Jeez, that makes me sound like an armchair psychologist and I'm not, but you get my point. It's also not like that theory fully explains the whole thing. I don't think it's pure ego. I don't think it's that cynical, but it doesn't feel like it's un-cynical.

    I feel like this sentence alone has more of an emotional core than the first Avatar. :D 
     
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  14. Lord Kaukazus

    Lord Kaukazus Banned

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    Kino.
     
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  15. Purple Heart

    Purple Heart Some other time..

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    Thanks, I’d give you a TLDR, but that would be paragraphs long for even just the first installment. But, it is a story at it’s core about people and love, and the first installment has a man leaving his wife who goes on to start a war he tried to prevent, and he is called to action to fight against her and the nation she serves, leading to a very climatic battle at the end where a husband and wife must reconcile in the aftermath of irreversable death and devastation, with the wife dying after forgiving her husband for only trying to love her to prevent the war she wound up starting.

    The whole thing is based off of WWII naval history and inspired by the game Azur Lane, only taking it’s actual story potential and doing something with it, mainely taking existing character traits and real history and a unique premise to create a story all about love and the tragedy of war.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
  16. Chopperface

    Chopperface Chadwick Forever

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    Echoing everything Split said, especially the part about how it was tailor made to be as appealing and common denominator as possible.

    I would really like to see this in IMAX 3D. Not expecting much and it’s truly disappointing that the plot and characters are STILL paper thin after that was the biggest criticism of the last one all these years.
     
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  17. Gaastra

    Gaastra Well-Known Member

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    They did. They said it was "paper thin." Watched one and he gushed over the 3-d and effects the whole review than says "as for the plot--well its nothing groundbreaking or new at all. Might bother some people but not me" than goes back to the effects. Ironic he loved the film.

    So, like the first. If you liked the first, you will like it. If not, you won't.

    Edit--we have our first big negetive review--

     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
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  18. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

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    Yeah, I thought the original was serviceable enough despite being Blue Cat People Pocahontas (I've heard people say Dancing with Wolves but I've never seen that film myself) but beyond that and groundbreaking visuals in IMAX 3D at the time, over time it really hasn't proven to be something truly timeless. If Way of Water is more of the same then I don't mind missing it, especially since trying to get to the nearest IMAX 3D is such a pain in the ass these days for me.
     
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  19. Chopperface

    Chopperface Chadwick Forever

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    That makes sense. My default theater has IMAX 3D so that’s never been a concern for me. I’ve been spoiled.
     
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  20. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

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    Yeah, closest one to me is about a 20 minute drive distance wise...in the middle of a major tourist destination I have to pass through the heart of the nearest city to get to. It's not fun getting there.