My main hunch is that they don’t think they need to explore the basics of this universe because they don’t consider it a different universe. Sure, they said a few times a few years ago that they were rebooting but they haven’t really stuck to it, so I think they are still considering this to be a continuation of the last 6 movies.

 

Exactly. This ties into why I give the whole 'Bayverse Scourge Prime' rumor some legitamacy because it sounds exactly like the kind of bullshit Paramount would pull to try and pretend they aren't rebooting. Much like how Age of Excrement was supposed to be a continuation...by basically murdering everybody except two certain characters off screen, which in any other context would rightfully be seen as a soft reboot. Its a case of these people wanting their cake and eating it too by trying to not alienate anybody regardless of if they want a reboot or a continuation of some sort.

Paramount needs to learn the old adage of 'trying to please everybody will only end up pleasing nobody'.

 

Agreed 100% I want a good ole autobots vs Decepticons movie

 

So pretty much Nemesis Prime take 2?

 

Geez.. You think this will be last time the MCU is talked about then?

We just had a discussion involving Transformer stuff and other stuff and you’re complaining about the other stuff as if you wish you knew that stuff better.

 

Merry Christmas Autobots, Maximals, Terrorcons and Predacons!

 

Yeah, part of the reason I left this thread a bit ago, It get so annoying saying and hearing the same thing. Along with nothing new happening for this film.

They've said since the beginning of ROTB being announced that the Decepticons are barely in the film so basically, the Terrorcons are the full main villains. So I expect a most credit scene of Decepticons - my idea a scene on Cybertron of Soundwave either getting part of Shatters signal or getting a new signal telling Megatron (Shockwave and Starscream are also in the room) that Prime is on Earth teasing a sequel.

 

I'd like to see Megatron in the next Transformers movie. And I don't think Megatron was adapted well in the Michael Bay transformers movies. I'd like to see Megatron as a powerful and ruthless decepticon in the Transformers movies. And I'd like the Transformers movies to appeal a little bit to adults.

 

For this movie to be a win for me I need to hear two things from two characters......Primal: That's just Prime
Galavar: Yessssss

 

With Steven being a BW fan I'm sure we will get Primal saying that and also if Galvar/Predacon Megs is in the movie we will get him to say that.

 

But the flipside is the problem of something like Amazing Spider-Man, which retreads a lot of ground we've already seen. Which is an inherent problem with reboots. This is one of the reasons I honestly kind of hope we stay in the same continuity, at least loosely. I for one don't want yet another Optimus vs Megatron story after five movies that feature Optimus vs Megatron and Autobots vs Decepticons. Especially since we're getting a Cybertron prequel about exactly that. Introduce some new threats and storylines.

 

You can introduce new threats and still have it be the Decepticons. The problem is making the Decepticon threat in each installment be fresh, which in itself isn't hard given there's more than a handful of Decepticons through the entire franchise to pull from. You have a small group of Autobots on Earth, you do not need the entire goddamn Decepticon battle fleet mobilized and fighting the Autobots. Just send in a subgroup like the Stunticons, the Combaticons, or just a random small team of ungrouped random guys supporting a single heavy hitter like Sixshot or Tidal Wave. You're acting like deviation from the source material must happen just because the Decepticons already got used, so other Decepticons can't be used doing different things to achieve the same ultimate end goal just because of the badge they wear and no other reason.

The whole point of the Decepticons is ultimately to be the guys the Autobots are locked in endless combat with, that's the pillar the franchise is founded on, same way COBRA is the arch enemy of the GI JOE forces. Not to mention what good is introducing new bad guys when you can't even define who the old bad guys were in the first place, thus rendering the very idea of making them different moot? Even Beast Wars which took place so far in the future that it involved (largely) different factions? Nope, that tied right back to the original Autobot/Decepticon conflict with BW Megatron effectively being G1 Megatron's time travelling agent to change the outcome of the Great War in 1984 so the Decepticons would win. Even Rescue Bots, which doesn't have a single Decepticon ever appear, doesn't pretend the war isn't happening off screen and Heatwave casually namedrops Starscream and even Unicron at one point or another.

The Great War is the framework of the franchise, to deviate from it before actually explaining it even on a basic conceptual level is to invite disaster. And your idea of needing the prequel to explain stuff so the movies don't have to even mention it? Having to consult external media to understand something else is a fundamental sign of extremely flawed narrative since while that's okay for the super esoteric stuff not necessary to the plot, making it required reading/viewing to even understand why anything is happening is only going to piss off casual audiences.

 

I think you're placing too much importance on these specific factions. The heart of the franchise isn't "Autobots vs Decepticons", it's the heroes protecting Earth and its inhabitants from the villains who want to do us harm. Outside of name recognition, it doesn't really matter what the factions are called. I could see this being a complaint if the '07 movie jumped right in with new factions (considering it is important to capture the brand iconography in the first installment), but we've had so many movies about Autobots vs Decepticons that I kind of welcome something different.

Not to mention the Terrorcons can (and probably will) tie into the Autobot/Decepticon war, like the other examples you mentioned. Not that they even need to. I kind of dig the idea of some random faction just showing up and getting in the Autobots' way between Decepticon encounters. Surely there are other Transformer factions out there with unique motivations, who don't want anything to do with the main war. Even the G1 cartoon did that, with the Junkions and whatnot.

I think the brand as a whole could stand to dial back the whole "two factions locked in endless combat" thing...it makes the universe feel a bit small and gives the impression that nothing else is happening. I love the episodes of G1 where the Autobots travel off Earth and encounter weird alien threats. I hate Sea Change, but love the stuff with Deceptitran. I tend to like that sort of stuff a bit better than the typical "Megatron builds a doomsday device" plots. Not that there's anything wrong with those, but we need a variety of stories. And we've had quite a few with Megatron creating doomsday plans. That's kind of how I see ROTB...a fight with a new threat before another inevitable Decepticon battle.

 

I’m always behind new ideas to liven up the franchise myself. But in the end it always come down to quality. Give me a good movie any day over a movie trying to conduct new ideas and failing miserably at it.

 

You're basically asking for the side story before the main story has even been developed enough to support such a thing. If we're treating Bumblebee as its own continuity, then you're basically insisting that the narrative eschew even explaining why Bumblebee ultimately even needed to happen in the first place, and thus simply have "they're in the middle of a war because of REASONS" before simply diverting attention to even more bullshit that can build off of the nothing you've left the main narrative with and thus abandoned any notion of a little something called context. And this isn't just about the Terrorcons, there are Maximals and Predacons as well, so that's THREE FACTIONS being introduced as sides to a war that remains unexplained.

I mean, you basically want the story of all of Hitler's generals trying to kill Hitler before you get the story of how Hitler so badly mismanaged the war to even get to the point his own inner circle thought killing him was their best option. Sure, the fact Valkyrie made 42 attempts on Hitler and he survived all of them is quite a fun narrative, but without the context of the deteriorating political situation in Berlin that Hitler's own men wanted to remove the Nazis from power (and by which it meant killing Hitler, who was the embodiment of the Nazis by that point) in order to negotiate a quicker peace before the Soviets got there, all it looks like is a cartoonish assassination plot by evil Nazis trying to pull Praetorian Guard Succession on the top Nazi. Context radically changes how events and facts work together, and you want to throw that all out because you're bored of the important stuff over the effective side story fluff.

And if this isn't a clean severance from Bayverse, then the narrative is already in the shitter. If the Bayprime-is-Scourge rumor is true, then that means the Bayverse was entirely pointless as it has BAD END where Unicron wins. And if it's not true and this ends up being a solid prequel, then nothing matters there either since Bayverse pretty much doesn't have any payoff at this point, everybody basically dies at the beginning of AoE and any new characters won't show up in TLK, thus highlighting the problem with trying to endlessly retcon shit that probably would have mattered during the events of the existing films.

Plus, the fact you highlight the whole 'doomsday plot' is precisely the kind of problem where you're throwing out the entire Decepticons simply because of the shit writing Paramount had going. Here's a novel concept: don't have the Decepticons try to go full Exterminatus on Earth. Back in the original cartoon, the Decepticons didn't really even care about the humans, it was all about harvesting natural resources for energy and humans getting hurt was collateral damage, not the entire point of whatever was going on. You don't have to introduce entire new groups you have to explain from the ground up, something Paramount has proven utterly incapable of - because how about the big fat fucking nothing the Creators were, hmmm? - just have the normal bad guys do something different. You are demonstrating the exact mentality that is behind Paramount's belief the Decepticons literally can't do anything other than threaten global destruction every other week, when really they shouldn't be giving a shit about the Earth. They should be focused on winning the war which they pretty much haven't been doing in any film to date except Bumblebee.

 

I'd argue the Autobot/Decepticon war is kind of like Spider-Man's origin story. Everyone knows it, and you don't really have to recap it in every continuity in order to tell good stories. Like how Homecoming didn't even bother. Even general audience members know that Megatron is Optimus' arch enemy and that the Decepticons are the rival faction. Even if the Bay movies didn't do the greatest job developing their motivation, everyone knows who the Decepticons are and what they're all about by this point.

I mean, I'd personally be fine with redoing the '07 movie with a more G1 aesthetic. Not gonna lie, it would be fun to see a more charming and scheming Megatron as the main villains. But to a lot of viewers, that could seem derivative of stuff we've seen. You have to understand why Paramount might not want to do that. Especially when an upcoming movie (the Cybertron prequel) seems to be incorporating aspects of that.

I honestly think you have a good head for storytelling and how to craft a series. In a bubble, I think your ideas would make a fun Transformers series. But we are living in a world where six Transformers movies exist...four of which were seen by a huge portion of the population. Hence why something like your Stunticon idea probably wouldn't happen. People have already seen the Combiner gimmick a few times. Using another Combiner as an end boss would be derivative of Devastator and Infernocus, who appeared only a few years ago. Not repeating the same visuals, villains, and gimmicks is a concern. And it could affect the box office if audiences go home and tell their friends "eh, don't bother, it's just another one where Optimus fights Megatron in the end".

 

Are you really expecting new people to sit through ten+ hours simply to be caught up with the plot when everybody pretty much dies anyway offscreen in AoE? This is not The Young and the Restless that we're talking about here, it's a franchise mainly aimed at hocking toys to children.

Plus, an old story told well is going to do better than some brand new thing told idiotically. Remember how much people gushed over Cameron's Avatar? That wasn't a new story, that was Pochohantas except with blue cat people instead of Native Americans and humanity's military-industrial complex instead of some asshole colonial governor.

And I would much rather have Paramount prove they can actually retell the foundation of Transformers correctly before they immediately try diverging in different directions. I mean, for all you talk about how we keep getting Optimus vs Megatron...when was the last time we got anything even remotely resembling G1 Prime vs G1 Megatron in cutting edge 3D technology?

2008, as part of the Universe (2.0) advertisement campaign. And it was just a copy of the TFTM fight with Hot Rod's involvement cut out.

I get what you want, but we are so damn far from where Paramount should be looking at that. The main selling point of Transformers used to be the cutting edge CGI, that ship sailed years back. Now it has to stand on the narrative and to do that needs a solid foundation, which Bumblebee alone does not provide. You trying to salvage the Bayverse is entirely Sunk Cost Fallacy. It happened, yes, but there is just so much more room and potential if we abandon that to the dustbin of history and start from scratch.

And I think Paramount is a bunch of fucking idiots that couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground at this point.

We also live in a world where Spiderman has been rebooted three times and nobody's cared. They literally just made a movie about there being three different Spidemen continuities simultaneously existing. Why can't we just have a separate Transformers continuity with the movies? Most of the population you even cite think the movies are shit, too, so they're not going to care about a rebooted continuity not being in line with the white noise that Bayverse ultimately amounts to - hell, they probably don't even remember most of what happened in Bayverse anyway since really none of it mattered by the subsequent film more or less.

Because of application and context which you are ignoring. Devestator was fucking nothing after his dramatic centerpice of CGI animation combination - he ate a bunch of sand, got half his face blown off after completely failing to take out the Twins, and then knocked off half a pyramid before his arm got blown off and he fell to his death. He does more fighting with Autobots in the Universal Studios Ride.

And Infernocus...who actually cares? Even by your own argument about how there are only four films "most" people have seen, I'm betting TLK is one of the two that wasn't, which undermines your combiner argument over people being "tired" of it.

And in the context of Bumblebee being a new continuity...no, combiners wouldn't have been done before, so Menasor being this giant that largely can team wipe the Autobots and requires strategy to defeat would be a far cry from "Devestator dies from a single railgun shot from a weapon deus ex machina" or I guess Prime one-manning that ugly abomination Infernocus (I didn't bother seeing that trash film).

The main thing I'm seeing is...you don't want start over for some reason. Again, sunk cost fallacy.

Yes, because it's TRANSFORMERS. Of course Prime should fight Megatron, they're the respective leaders of each of their factions, people expect this! And we have not gotten a good Megatron worth a damn so even if something does turn into Prime v. Megatron, if it's done well then people are going to like it. Look at the Legend of Zelda - almost every single final boss? It's still Ganon who was the final boss in the first game and is usually the one responsible for all the bullshit Link has to deal with - either as Ganon or Ganondorf.

Trying to introduce new threats because you feel the old ones are boring solves fucking nothing if the execution is still shit.

 

Im not disagreeing you here my friend, but I know some people who watched all of the mcu films to get ready for Avengers Infinity, when they only watched a few of em before. It’s antecodal sure, but it has happened.

 

The difference is that you don't need to have actually watched any of the previous MCU films to understand Infinity War. The whole bit that Wong talks about with the Infinity Stones early in the movie is purely a recap of what was explained over the course of the MCU up to that point. Thus, you understand what the stones are (if not necessarily what each of them individually does) and why Thanos wants them, thus the entire conflict is explained. You understand what the "win condition" for Thanos is - delete 50% of all life with a snap using the stones. Everything that's happened up to that point has been tied, more or less, with building up to Infinity War as the overarching background narrative.

EDIT: Likewise, the MCU is having a problem now that the whole Infinity War/Endgame stuff is resolved, as you've got powerful entitles who on paper would have been invested in the situation, but have to have contrived explanations for why they didn't help stop Thanos at any point.

With Transformers films, this isn't as true because it's just the same shit over and over, the Decepticons wanting to murder the Earth and everything on it, but the reasons for it keep changing and thus make the Decepticons look inconsistent and their "win condition" both fleeting and ultimately insubstantial since even murdering all of humanity doesn't necessarily actually do anything for the Decepticons. The issue simply was there wasn't a background overarching plot from the get go and there still isn't, with the Bayverse trying to force one with the illumnati nonsense which doesn't work. Starting fresh allows all the garbage to be thus ignored and a clearer, competent path laid out to tell the narrative. That is what every cinematic universe has failed to do other than the MCU - they don't plan ahead so they know how much build-up needs to be done for the overarching story and how much focus on the actual movie plot needs to happen.

 

Megatron is my favorite transformer and the way hasbro has been neglecting him these last few years makes my blood boil