What would you say it is then? Is rebirth part of beast Wars? Or another universe of marvel?

That's your opinion. I do not see it that way.

And that's also just your opinion.

You could say that.

But when galvatron tried to install it to his cannon, the ghosts of the autobots where as a plague and drove him away. (Odly though, the matrix accepted scourge to some degree).

It's a great question. Remember though that one could ask that about any other transformer life. Or what about teletran one? Was it alive?

Why do you think scourge was compatible to some degree...and not galvatron? What special circuitry did he have that galvatron did not?

another point: it's interesting that Carly or any others could manipulate circuits to change transformers. Makes one wonder whether circuitry in fact determines choices of transformers.

Or maybee sparks with special programs alone are compatible with the matrix?

I wonder though.....we both seemed to agree that the matrix is some kind of medium. If so, then who is at the other end of the telephone?
And are those ghosts the soul/sparks of transformers? Or are they artificial creations of the matrix itself?

 

I’m not understanding your question
we were not talking about “universes”

we were talking about if 1 story is considered a “continuation” to an other

the rebirth and the return of Optimus prime are part of the Sunbow universe, and the events follow each other Inside the universe is internal history

But they are completely free different stories and are not continuation of each other

that’s exactly my point

the way you framed your words before was as it was a undeniable fact

True but what caused that

could it be the will of matrix itself or the sone kind of security system?

Which suggests the issue of some level of compatibility

All very good questions

To tell the truth there are a number of possibilities and I have a tendency to have more fun with coming up with questions then I do with answers

But just to throw one idea out there, it may not be an issue of circuitry and maybe more of the metaphysical

That is a very interesting question

And there were some episodes that would suggest simple re-wiring could completely reprogram the way they behave

Also possible

If we are talking about tge g1 cartoon,

Then I think that the show depicted the matrix a bit like a crystal ball or other “magical” item/totem that something allows communication with the “afterlife”

it also sometimes bestows power or can be used as a weapon

 

Okay then the real issue is lack of proper understanding. For me, rebirth is the next episode following return of Optimus prime. Therefore it continues the g1 animation big storyline.

That's my logic. You obviously have a different logic since you reject my logic.

Explain what you mean by "security system"? If you mean some kind of alarm being set off by the matrix, I reject that explanation. Why was scourge accepted then? (Scourge is a decepticon all the way).

Just to let you know: metaphysics is a philosophical concept. It deals with mind. I would argue that everything in g1 transformers; (toys, comics, animation), is off metaphysics. Product of mind.
(But you rejected this logic before).

I agree.

Course I would add that a human soul is also initself a medium too, as well as a source of life. In other words, a human prophet not only is alive, but a living medium of a god.

I agree here too. Unicron fears of the matrix was more to do with this aspect. And even galvatron acknowledged the matrix as a weapon, he just could not use it, since it appeared to have rejected him, (or as you like to put it: matrix was incompatible with him).

The episode with primacon may also suggest that the living energy of the matrix was some kind of life form initself.

I for one think the matrix is alive as a part of Vector sigma. (Similar to Christian trinity doctrine.....god is one....yet has distinct separate persons).

 

Not exactly a different logic

Yes the rebirth is the next episode after return
Yes it continues the ongoing g1cartoon storyline.
But it’s not a continuation

In a serial Episodic series a continuation description a 2 or more part story that almost Immediately picks up from where the last one left off and the stories events are directly linked together

For example ,In the Cartoon “The return of Optimus prime part 1” & “The return of Optimus prime part 2”

Or for example episode without the same name or parts….

“The ultimate doom part 3” and then “Countdown to extinction”

Yes I do kind of been some kind of an alarm

As I pointed out earlier there’s a possibility he has a greater physical compatibility then some other autobots (Or even metaphysical)

there’s a possibility that not only autobots can use it

I understand that

I’m not sure what you mean by “I reject it,” please feel free to elaborate

Yes a lot of people like to draw a connection between the “assistant” and the matrix

The problem is outside of three seconds of animation, That the evidence suggests was more of a mistake on the part of the animation team, There is absolutely nothing else to suggest that conclusion

I will not tell you that you were wrong

My own personal canon has a similar concept

But he G1 cartoon didn’t show much to suggest that’s the case

 

I am looking at the logic and grammar of this statement. This seems like a contradiction. Look at these words. Analyze them. Think about it.

You say: IT CONTINUES. but then you say: IT DOES NOT CONTINUE.

you do realize this is clearly illogical.

Perhaps you need to explain this more.

And you do explain.

To me. Beast Wars continues the saga of g1. To me rebirth season 4 episode 1 continues the saga of season 1 episode 1 of g1.

You wish to emphasize the close proximity of time between episodes.

It's true....much time may have passed by between return of Optimus prime and rebirth....nevertheless....it is very logical and correct to say that rebirth continues where return of Optimus prime episode left off.

I am not even going to bother to debate this obvious fact.

This is all completely metaphysical. That means the laws of the dreamworld can break and goes beyond the real worlds laws of physics.

I for one prefer realism and accuracy as much as possible. (That a science fiction drama be as real to the real world as possible).

Clearly scourge....a decepticon....was able to be compatible with the matrix....but it did deform his appearance to some degree.

I refer to a past debate we engaged in. You said that facts about transformers are not of metaphysics. (Opposite of my position).
But never mind....

The teller of this origin tale identifies himself as primacons assistant. We are told that they are 2 organic beings who built "the primitives" (earliest animalistic robots). And that they built unicron. We are then shown what looks like a matrix figure, where primacons assistant escaped unicron.

What makes you think that this appearance of the matrix was a mistake?

Other issues: I find it interesting the the guy telling the tale claims to be a creator of early transformers. This is why I believe that the ape like aliens like primacon have a deep connection with the quints who also created transformers.
Furthermore, in the episode web world, the monkey like psychologist aliens also look like primacon alien, and the quints knew them. And these monkey aliens also lived on a living planet.

Metaphysics can be obscure. It is always beyond proof, logic, physics, anything. That's why one in reality can not prove anything in this subject. That's why one can be irrational and say there is a god, but no one can prove God exists. Or God is one....but also 3.

The irrational and the illogical rules the dreamworld.

 

G1:

No Alpha Trion, Orion Pax or Vector Sigma.
Cut all ties with Akom.
Cut out the silliness like Kremzeek and Lord Chumley.

Beast Wars.

No animal heads in robot mode.
No Rattrap or Quickstrike.
Give Dinobot a proper voice.
Kill Waspinator and Black Arachnia instead of Terrorsaur and Scorponok.

Animated.

Don't give Prowl those shades.
No stylised aesthetics like Bulkhead and the Constructicons.
None of those awful human villains.
No Lockdown, Alpha Trion or Wreck-Gar.
Make Soundwave a proper Cybertronian with his original voice.

Prime.

No Raf or Miko.
Base the aesthetics on the War for Cybertron games.
Ironhide in the main cast voiced by Peter Cullen instead of Bulkhead.
Drop the Insecticons but if they are included don't give them the corny warcry.

RID 2015

No Drift or Grimlock.
Sideswipe and Jazz designs based on WFC.
Troy Baker voices Jazz.

Cyberverse.

No radio voice for Bumblebee.
Don't kill Blurr.
Don't make Grimlock the Beast from X-Men.
Change Thundercracker and Sky Bite's voices.

Combiner Wars Trilogy

Give Menasor his Devestation voice actor.
Recast Starscream and Computron.
Cut out Windblade's anime style grunting and shouting.
Base Megatronus' design on his Dreamwave look.
More Seekers.
Don't give Rodimus Unicronus the shades and beard.

Netflix.

Use whatever Travis Knight did to give Soundwave his proper voice.
Recast Starscream.
Swap Ironhide and Hound's voices.
Give Alpha Trion and Bumblebee's role to anyone else.
Don't kill Skywarp and Ultra Magnus.
No Beast Wars. Include Rodimus Prime, Inferno, Huffer, Cyclonus, Tracks and Hoist in the cast.

 

No
I say: IT CONTINUES as it is after the previous story

but: IT IS NOT A CONTINUATION to the previous story

A “continuation” is part of the same story from the previous episode

A continuation is an episode that has a Direct narrative link to the episode before it

It continues but not from where the return of prime left off

the story clearly tells us that time has passed so it’s not a “Continuation” Of the previous story

I didn’t really say anything metaphysical,

So do I
That’s why I cited the possibility of a physical compatibility

It did it made him looked a bit monsterous

ok
[quote
The teller of this origin tale identifies himself as primacons assistant. We are told that they are 2 organic beings who built "the primitives" (earliest animalistic robots). And that they built unicron. We are then shown what looks like a matrix figure, where primacons assistant escaped unicron.

What makes you think that this appearance of the matrix was a mistake?
[/quote]And as we see that that image dialog says
“ I, the Primacron's assistant, escaped to this dead world

abd then we see the matrix fly away

What make me think it’s a mistake?

1) we are never given any indication tge matrix can fly

2)because there’s nothing in the dialog to indicate it’s the matrix, nothing the anything said to think it was he matrix

3) tge animation studios that made this episode never worked on transformers before this episode

4) we know (from interviews with show creators) that Sunbow had a bad habit of sending character models to the animation studies with no explanation as to who or what the images were

it’s the reason why we saw images of Skyfire,Powerglide and Broadside, used as autobot shuttles and destroyed in episodes like “Dark awakening” And “five faces of darkness”

All of this suggest that the studio that animated “Call of the primitives” mistook the image of the matrix as some kind of excape pod or shuttle

I don’t interpret the dialogue as that they created early “transformers”

Just that they created early robotic beast

That’s an interesting way to look at it

I understand

 

Okay. I see what you are saying.

Me and you are using word to focus on different things.

Okay. To me focusing too much on grammatical uses of words leads to trivialities not worth pursuing a discussion on. I see what you are saying. Hope you also understood what I said.

I wish to stay away from personhood. We are both discussing transformers. (A metaphysical thing)

And as we see that that image dialog says
“ I, the Primacron's assistant, escaped to this dead world

abd then we see the matrix fly away

What make me think it’s a mistake?

1) we are never given any indication tge matrix can fly

2)because there’s nothing in the dialog to indicate it’s the matrix, nothing the anything said to think it was he matrix

3) tge animation studios that made this episode never worked on transformers before this episode

4) we know (from interviews with show creators) that Sunbow had a bad habit of sending character models to the animation studies with no explanation as to who or what the images were[/QUOTE]

This genesis tale is exactly 2 minutes long.

From 11.30 to 13.30.

You have good points.

Note how primacon is an organic who "unicron tried to dispose off, but failed...leaving primacon broken, but alive..."

After unicron is shown balsting primacron, we are shown what looks like the matrix fly away.

The storyteller continues: I Primacrons assistant escaped to this dead world.

I think you said a long time ago, that what we saw meant to be portrayed was some kind of escape pod too.

But there has got to be a reason why the matrix is shown. By the way, the matrix to some degree also looks like a mini unicron planet mode.

Anyway, your explanation is good.

Primacons assistant summoned "the primitives" (transformers with beast modes), to tell them this tale...to grimlocks delight)
He claims to be the creator of primitives. Something quintessons also where claimed to be by the matrix or ghost of that old prime.

 

At least we understand each other now

I think there’s a difference between fiction and metaphysical

well like I said before , all the Verifiable evidence, plus what we know about The production practices of the show at the time, Seem to point to the fact that it was just a mistake on the part of the animation Studios

Just to reiterate

1)there's nothing in the original script , or any of the production materials found so far, that mentions anything About the matrix what so ever about the matrix being used in this episode

2) the animation studios that made this episode never worked on transformers before this episode……..So it’s foreseeable That they wouldn’t know what the matrix look like or what it was supposed to be

3)we know that at times Sunbow failed to attach relevant information about their character models When sending the information to some of the animation Studios
So given the information that we actually have right now it just seems to point to a mistake

That’s not to say that I discount the possibility that one day someone will find some more information on this I maybe will find out that someone somewhere I wanted to make a connection

Kind of I guess

actually the words in the dialog say…

Then allow me to tell it. Near the beginning of the galaxy, an organic being we shall know as Primacron built some of the primitives.

and we know the primitives were robot animals

so we know Primacron built some early robotic animals if some type but we don’t know if they could transform






.

 

If some of these characters show up before the Desertion of the Dinobots, curious how you would explain their absence from the show in a fictional sense?

 

I’m not sure what you are asking

Which “Absence“ are you looking to explain....After all every character doesn’t show up in every episode

 

"Ghost of Starscream?"

Even as a little kid, my brain went "isn't this sci-fi about machines? Ghosts?!?"

Of course Starscream would be the kind of character to back up his mind to a mainframe and graft it on to a virus. So that he could appear via floating holo-projector, and inject his virus-mind into other bodies to possess them, temporarily.

 

I am interested in your explanation and views of these differences.

Okay. A good explanation and analysis. I have no objections here...

Primacons assistance was the one who gathered all those primitives. (Transformers with beast modes). And he claimed that primacon built SOME of them. (Not all...yes your right....we know the dinobots for instance where not one of the primitives built by primacon).

And I think you make a good point about a lack of transformation ability among early primitives.

 

Everything begins with the mind

but once your put pen to paper and write what you it down you now made it tangible, something others can touch,feel,see, read ….and so on

so it’s no longer in the mind, it’s in the real world

Thanks

Thank you

 

Just when you said 'better' in an earlier post, I just do not see how.

Just on characters who could have stayed back on Cybertron, wish in Divide and Conquer and the Ultimate Doom that Autobots left on Cybertron could be visibly seen help the season 1 Autobots.

I know I mentioned something similar earlier, but after part 3 of the pilot, I would like to see Wheeljack, Mirage, Bluestreak, Hound and say Windcharger (they did not appear in Transport to Oblivion according to TF wiki) fly to Cybertron, as a way of the Autobots doing some research into the state of Cybertron, there Wheeljack sees that his lab has been locked and Bluestreak sees the ruins of his former city (according to his toy bio).

Say the likes of the seekers detect the Autobot presence but the likes of Impactor come to the season 1 Autobots rescue.

More stories on Cybertron, after City of Steel, Megatron is really disappointed with the Constructicons and orders them to Cybertron to defeat the remaining Autobots on Cybertron. Devastator is largely successful and Skyfire is sent to evacuate the surviving Autobots and end up on some other planet as Skyfire could be tracked by seekers. Maybe CounterPunch could have some sort of moment, where he decides to assist the Autobots, maybe he never liked Megatron.

Just on Deluxe Insections, I am thinking in the movie and Five Faces of Darkness and even Flight or Flee that is remastered the Deluxe Insecticons could appear instead of the regular Insections after the Astrotrain shuttle scene.

 

This can actually address a huge philosophical issue. I am very fascinated by the nature of mind.

You pose a very interesting thing.

Basically; that once mind is made tangible and available for other people's senses (see, hear, touch).....
once others can be aware of a minds contents (eg in written form)....

You conclude that It is no longer in the mind, but rather in the real world.

A great logical and simple philosophical exposition.

(I would polish up your concluding statement a bit though).

I would conclude this: mind to me is physical. The issue is that it is a private thing unknown to other people if our mind is kept within our brains.
Once mind gets transferred as words as sounds ...or as words by ink and paper...or captured by electronic technologies...

....now mind is available and exposed to the public.

This is exactly why I have argued before, that no writers or artists owns ideas. Why? Because their ideas where aired in public media and markets. They sold their ideas to many consumers. So those who bought the products now themselves own it.
This is why transformer stories and toys found in comics or animation actually belongs to the fans.

 

Please try to refresh my memory because I’m even more confused now than I was before

I still don’t understand what you mean by “stayed back on Cybertron” In the episodes you’re mentioning

Are you talking about season 1 characters that maybe stayed on Cybertron between episodes?

Are you suggesting that Wheeljack, Mirage, Bluestreak, Hound and Windcharger were on Cybertron during the events of “Transport to oblivion”

If yea, how would you have expected any them to make it to Cybertron?….the autobots didn’t have the meens to make such a trip without the ark

besides that they established that the first contact between Cybertron and the transformers on earth was when Shockwave contacted Megatron

As I said before I see no reason to create new continuity issues

 

I see what your saying but tge problem is that tge fan aren’t buying the idea

they are buying a product , a tangible item tgat was once an idea but is now Inhabits the physical world

The writers/artist have made the product,born from the idea/mind, and have made it available to everyone else by mass production

and to mass produce the Physical manifestation they must retain the rights to the work they created because The mass production of the physical items is not a free process

This is why transformer stories/toys found in comics or cartoons actually belongs to The license holders……..Because without the ability to retain the rights to the finished product there wouldn’t be so many fans at all

 

So, as I understand, you said the likes of Tracks, Skids would come to Earth during season 2, I am just saying that it would seemingly be better from a fictional sense if they come to earth after Desertion of the Dinobots, as it would not sit comfortable with me Spike and Carly going to Cybertron when Tracks and co. are on Earth.

In my headcanon, there are about 10 or so Autobots still left on Cybertron in 1983, the likes of Whirl, Topspin, Impactor and so forth.

At the end of part 3 of the pilot episode, Spike is about to board a shuttle to Cybertron. That clearly does not happen between the Transport to Oblivion episode, but I would like to retcon (and I intend to write some fan fiction in the next month or so) is that Hound, Windcharger, Mirage, Bluestreak and Wheeljack do go back to Cybertron at the end of the 3 part pilot episode.



In such a fanfiction, I would have Shockwave almost having completed the space bridge but he has got a number of seekers who do not believe it is going to work and Shockwave is facing a rebellion. However, Mirage is spotted by a Decepticon patrol, Shockwave suddenly believes that Megatron may be alive.

I know you might not like this thesis for a story and it may not fight in perfectly with the story but as a cartoon Shockwave fan, I cannot stand that at the start of Transport to Oblivion, too many fans of the show it just looks like Shockwave has been calling Megatron for 4M years, but I want those 4M years to look far more interesting than that.

By sunbow standards, I think it is feasible that the Autobots could build a spaceship with similar dimentions to the one Megatron used in the Ultimate Doom.

We can agree to disagree, anyway to me the movie can be remastered, and it should be clear who boarded Astrotrain at Autobot City in term of clone Insecticons so the Scavenger and Insecticon scene with Daniel makes sense, as does Starscream's coronation. To me, there is hardly a continuity error if Deluxe Insecticons were swapped with Insecticons as the Insecticons do almost nothing in season 3 anyway.

To me, it would fit nicely if there were beast robots on Cybertron and at the war before the golden age some beast robots who side with the Autobots were given the ability to transform and those that sided with the Decepticons were able to learn how to transform during the mid to later stages of the golden age.

On logistical question interest me, is if Primacon built such beast robots did he build them on Cybertron or did the Quintessons import them, in general how did beast robots end up on Cyberton?

 

replace prime wheeljack with drift