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I had v2/toon colors and had zero issues. I heard the legs transformation was easier with that one though.

 

Apollyon was pretty BADLY engineered, but was he OVERENGINEERED? I'm not sure he was. Megatron is a super involved transformation. Even the takara one is a lengthy process. What doomed Polly was bad materials and bad tolerances, something XTB has never entirely gotten away from, but the level of complexity is pretty standard for the character, and for what that transformation has to get done.

When I think of OVERENGINEERING I think of things that should be simple, but aren't, like their Skids, who somehow manages to make a dirt simple transformation into a mess, or when FT puts extra flaps and gubbins on a character just to fill in a tiny gap, or the underside of an altmode nobody was ever going to turn over. Their Galvatron has a ton of those, all in service of a sci-fi-space-nothing altmode that STILL just looks like Galvatron doing a push-up.

 

Literally the post above yours correctly pointed out the base mode didn't add much extra fluff!   Base mode added two swivel joints and 4 little hooks to help hold it together. Otherwise it's simply half the trailer exploded out on transformation and articulation joints.

One could still consider it overengineered of course, although the payoff is the accuracy in bot mode and compactness in trailer mode compared to DX9, but it has nothing to do with base mode!

 

And I disagree with that point.

 

The XTB trailer transformation isn't really all that complex, in theory. It's just turning the trailer inside-out, with a few interesting steps in the torso area to improve its shape. The biggest obstacle in handling it is just how damned big it is. So much weight on thin hinges means it's difficult to manage everything.

I can't really see any design optimizations that could have been made with it, to make it simpler, considering what it needs to do. DX9's offering looks a tiny bit easier to manage in some areas, but in that course, it still winds up looking like a trailer unfolded into a humanoid shape. XTB was aiming for a more complete "MP-44"-style transformation that doesn't look much like a trailer at all.

What do you find messy with Savant? The only thing remotely complex on that toy is the arms, and most of that's due to Skids' weird animation model.

 

Its not really up for debate though. All the joints it has, except for two, and a few hooks, are used to get it from bot to trailer and back. That's just a fact. Base mode is literally just half the trailer opened out, then they thought hmmm if we swivel these two panels it'll look a bit better, and if we add a few little hooks here and here it'll be a bit more stable. But 99% of the engineering is demonstrably for the basic transformation. Take any of it away and it cant transform.

 

Basically, you are stating: I say it is so. Thus, not up to debate.

OK, you win the internet for the day.

 

But he's exactly right. Have you even tried out the base configuration? It's super simple. And if none of the proprietary joints for that mode are used for the Combiner configuration, then it doesn't add anything to the overall complexity, either.

 

What they did, specifically, and its pretty amazing they pulled it off imho - look at the orivinal Menasor design. From before the big redesign, when it didn't turn into a trailer, but it just was gonna fold up somewhat and fit inside a bigger trIler. Compare that to the final transforming redesign - the proportions and sculpt are pretty identical.

So it seems like they've decided were keeping this damn sculpt - we spent a ton of time on it, it looks good, it integrates with the 5 figures, possibly even made some moulds. So come hell or high water this is gonna turn into a trailer now damnit, changing as little as possible.

So they had to take this finished Menasor that they could make suoer clean and accurately, with quite a lot of freedom cos it didint have to transform, it's nicely shaped and non blocky around the torso, abs, crotch, thighs, and had to engineer it to turn into a trailer. So they kept the original 3d model and started slicing it up. Hell of a task.

I think that backwards workflow - starting with a finished sculpt then adding the engineering afterwards - and not settling for much deviation from that sculpt, no trailer showing where it shouldn't - probably contributed to the overall complexity and lack of elegance. Base mode certainly didint - thats demonstrably an afterthought.

 

Lol. If my post stopped after the part you bolded, you'd have a point. But the stuff after it, the reasoning and facts and stuff, is why my argument is not 'because I said so'. Worth reading.

The roles of a joint in a transforming figure are not a matter of opinion! They do what they do! Simple as that. I dont know what to say. We have the figure in front of us, we can see what every joint and feature is for, how it is used, what it does! Again - there are a total of two joints added exclusively for base mode that you don't need to touch going from trailer to bot. And four little hooks. Everything else is needed for trailer to bot.

 

Might be controversial, but to me Toyworld Knight Orion is one of the most over-engineered figure I've ever seen with a subpar bot mode. It's too complicated for a figure that already nailed by UT Challenger. Also, the weathering effect and all unnecessary accessories are not worth the price.

 

Omg - Badcube Warpath!

Also ToyWorld Sideload. What were they thinking?

 

Agree with all of that but that desktop background...

 

It's why I own him, kept in robot mode, and the Generation Toy's version I TF.  

 

Noone mentioned Bold Forms Gladius yet? Ok.
Megatron is already complicated with the gun mode, but he threw in a tank mode on top.
I can transform, back and forth, Fansproject Diesel and Badcube figures without instructions (after the first time). I will never be able to transform this Megatron without instructions and I still get lost with them.

 

I wouldn't call this figure over-engineered. This figure is not solid at all so you get lost easily.

 

He tried to do too much and did not have a good grasp on transformations, hence I would say he's over-engineered. Complicated more than it needed to be.

 

Ugh! This^

WHY IS THIS SO COMPLICATED?!

I love the combined look, but to get there? Never again.....

 

This largely contributed to me moving away from 3P.

 

For me it’s Zeta/TW Jazz. Not that the transformation is impossible but it is unnecessarily frustrating. Mostly because like XTB Apollyon It can't be done without destroying the figure. I remember about half way through thinking ;oh well, it's already fucked might as well go for broke.

I've transformed hundreds of car bots G1, CHUG, MP, 3P, and 3PMP. Nothing has given me the grief of Zeta Jazz. I've only ever broken 2 figures during transformation one was my own damn fault and the other was Jazz.