Agree

The bayverse movie hate I most is AoE, because why they kill autobots and blame the war of chicago instead the decepticons.

 

I don't think this argument really works. There are tons of examples of this happening and it not being a problem.

This is Superman.


This is also Superman.


This is ALSO Superman.


You can do this with Batman too.

This is Batman,


this is Batman,


and this is also Batman.

 

But these designs were all presented in the stories they appeared in as weird, different alternate versions of the original characters. That’s not what they’ve done with most of the Transformers characters. With Transformers, most of the bay redesigns have been completely different and presented as the main versions in the story. There is no implication that they have ever looked different, just that these are the main versions of the characters that appear in Transformers. You can see this whenever you show someone who has only seen the movies a G1 character design. They will likely respond with surprise that the characters don’t look like they did in the movies.

 

What exactly is 'weird' and 'alternate'? As far as I'm concerned, anything post the original source material could fit that description.

E.g. Prime Soundwave is a weird; alternate version of G1 Soundwave

Or on a larger scale:

Bayformers was a weird alternate dimension.

So was Beast Wars.

And so was Animated.

 

isn't BW specifically set in the future after G1?

 

I wouldn't say what I said if I didn't know that.

BW Megatron? G1 Megatron?

Optimus Primal? Optimus Prime?

What's the difference?

 

The BW counterpart is the future version? It's not some kind of reimagining, it's the "sequel"?

That's like asking the difference between Flash and Kid Flash-

 

Really because you haven't presented a single example of this happening.

Sure is.

This is not a problem because even though he looks different it's still recognizable as Superman. There's also perfectly logical reasoning as to why he looks this way. In the flashpoint universe Superman was never found by the Kents, he was found by the government and grew up malnourished in a secured location with no sun light. Honestly it's kind of weird that his prison uniform still some what resembles his original costume with the colors and the S on the chest.

Again not a problem because it's still recognizable as Superman. Same face, still has the chest decal. They haven't removed EVERYTHING that makes him Superman like the super screwed up version I made.

You can fail to do this with Batman too.

Actually that's Red Death. He's an evil fusion of Batman and the Flash and both those designs come across in this image here.

Actually that's a version of Batman who was infected by the same chemicals that made the Joker. And again, both those designs show up perfectly here.

That's the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh and again, he's still easily recognizable as Batman.

You seem to have completely missed the point of my previous post. I'm not against different designs for the same character as long as they're still recognizable as the character they're suppose to be which all of these examples you gave are. What I have a problem with is name slapping a design that has nothing to do with the character they're suppose to be. You say there's a tone of examples of this happening with Batman and Superman but other than the totally made up examples I personally made myself, you can't seem to find even a single official example for something you claim is super common.

 

One could sincerely argue that the Bay versions of the characters are weird, different alternate versions of the original characters.

Personally, I don't believe this is true, but it's certainly a possible argument.

 

“Sequel”?

Are you even certain about your answer?

More like asking the difference between Rumble and Frenzy here.

 

It is a sequel, takes place after G1, they merely traveled back in time as well.

The fact that they're not the same characters is a pretty big difference.

 

You can sure share the same name though.

Silverbolt; Inferno; Scorponok?

And here's the thing, my original answer was about 'weird', alternate takes of original characters. I hope me mentioning BW is not a distraction.

 

I mean, excluding continuations, aren’t most continuities of Transformers alternate versions of the original? Is that not what generally happens as a franchise evolves?

Okay, then let’s apply your argument to a much more relevant franchise in this discussion: Transformers.

This is Soundwave. The unmistakable, classic Soundwave. Cybertron, Animated, and Cyberverse derive their designs from it.


This is also Soundwave. It’s Soundwave from Beast Wars.


Despite looking EXACTLY like Gearhead, this is also Soundwave, a clone of the original to be specific.


This guy is Soundwave too, and is actually ANOTHER clone of the original Soundwave, even if he looks more like a clone of Stalker.


This is Soundwave. This iteration derives (but may as well not) from the Aligned Continuity. Aligned was intended to be an all encompassing, definitive Transformers continuity for the next 10 or so years that would span over multiple types of media.


But, this is not Soundwave. How can he be Soundwave if it looks nothing like him?


I don’t understand why this is where the line is drawn when several different iterations of Soundwave have continued to not look like Soundwave for over 20 years.

 

Uh, no? Transformers constantly reboots because ironically, despite usually involving a war lasting millions of years, by the end of the story the good guys have to win, Megatron suffers final defeat, and the plot is resolved.

With superhero comics, you can keep things going simply by virtue of the bad guys either getting caught and breaking out of prison, or simply having their plans foiled and they vow vengeance before making their escape. The main Batman, for instance, is always the same guy, in the same city, fighting the same iconic villains.

The problem with Transformers also incorperates the fact the continuity reboots, but the names stay the same because Hasbro has to keep the name rights or else they lose them, which is why Armada Hot Shot is named after the RID Spychanger and not Bumblebee as the original Armada story bible names him as - the rights to use the name 'Bumblebee' in a toy actually went to some child's swing that had absolutely no relation to Transformers and it wasn't until Hasbro needed the name for their multi-million dollar live action movie toyline that they got it back, but I'm not versed in copyright law so I can't recall the specifics.

Soundwave in name only. If you even bothered to look up this character's history, he has absolutely nothing in common with G1 Soundwave - doubly so given Beast Wars takes place in G1 continuity. He's just a nameslap.

Ignoring the recton bullshit from the 2012 Botcon 'Wings' storyline which introduces that clone nonsense, you act like this ever was seriously anything more than another nameslap. It is not. The entirety of the G2 Go-Bots lineup was simply a bunch of Hot Wheels/Matchbox style cars which later became the basis for the RID Spychangers. It was the mid-90s and Hasbro was flailing about trying to revive a line that at the time was past its expiry date. Plus, again, name rights.

Again, NAMESLAP. That was the cobbled together 1997 Machine Wars line, where nobody looked like what they were supposed to because it was a last minute creation for Kay-Bee toys and to save money, they just used molds already available from G2. Excluding the Botcon stuff that came over a decade later, Machine Wars also has no associated fiction whatsoever so, again, it's not even the same character in the context of its own existence at the time it was produced.

That iteration is bullshit within its own continuity. Officially, Aligned Soundwave starts off in the original WFC body which, surprise surprise, is basically his G1 body but with wheels. But the Prime show gave zero fucks and went their own direction, going so far as to show this version of Soundwave as having been present at the foundation of the Decepticons...which is impossible because as already stated, this was not what Soundwave looked like at any point when he was still on Cybertron because we see him in the G1-esque form in WFC and FOC.

Plus, it's got more in common with G1 Soundwave than you think. Laserbeak deploys from the chest is obvious enough, but his entire facial design is clearly meant to resemble the Decepticon emblem. And do you know what was the basis for the Decepticon emblem back in 1984?

TOY SOUNDWAVE'S FACE.

Probably because it abandons the entire point of Soundwave's visual design? I mean, look at those arms - he's a fucking gorilla. Why is the supposed espionage expert of the Decepticons carrying thicker arms than 99% of any other Decepticons when brute force isn't supposed to be his specialty? He also is a high-end luxury car which, while obviously to partner around with Dylan, doesn't mean they had to abandon the robot's signature blocky look. They only cared about trying to shove in some stupid modern high-end luxury car...in the same context as having Dylan be a collector of rare, high-end vintage vehicles.

Why the hell couldn't he "drive" something like the Lamborghini LM002?


Possibly the most American looking vehicle Lamborghini has ever produced, this thing was the only product of their "Lamborghini Militare" line that left prototype stage. Its big, its boxyy, it's European, and it only makes sense that somebody who collects rare vehicles would use one for his own personal transportation instead of some stupid shit Bay put in because of his obsession with generic modern Eurpoean luxury cars. And it would make a great basis for a Transformer who needed to look boxy...like Soundwave.

Its also not commonly well known to exist, which amusingly was actually a problem in the film itself regarding Soundwave having the Mercedes logo end up on his chest - it's missing during the scene in Africa specifically so people wouldn't immediately realize he's the Merc driving around during the middle of the film. The LM002 would have been better as really, it could be confused for any number of other boxy vehicles like the Ford Bronco, the Hummer, or a Jeep, so the kibble wouldn't have been a dead giveaway like it actually is in the film to the point they had to remove stuff on the model,

 

"This is the Decepticon communications officer and spymaster."
"Yep."
"And he has sound and communication abilities, partners with animal minions he can send out on missions, and is one of Megatron's lieutenants."
"Yep."
"I saw this character in the movies, where he was called Soundwave. Then if that's the case, he must be Soundwave."
"Makes sense to me."
"Then take it."
"But he turns into a Mercedes."

 

See, in ROTF he was a satellite so that made sense...but you might have to jog my memory - at what point does he actually showcase any communications abilities in DOTM?

Another issue I see with this kind of logic is like trying to say that Energon Prowl is the same as G1 Prowl. Same name and they turn into a police vehicle, but one is a Fairlady Z and the other flat out is a futuristic F1 car.

Plus, within the context of the films, Soundwave isn't even unique - the whole gimmick of deploying minions goes for both Blackout/Scorponok and Barricade/Frenzy, roles that Soundwave was originally planned to be for in the first film but was ultimately replaced for some reason or another. In contrast, I don't even recall him ever actually ejecting Laserbeak at any point during DOTM, but I may be forgetting as it's been nearly 10 years since I saw the film.

And then there's the matter of his face...um...


He has a mouth. A very clearly defined mouth. And also clearly defined eyes and a curved brow.

Even the ROTF design did a better job with a moving segmented mouthplate and a browline with lined compound eyes that at least looked reminiscent of the original's visor.

 

Been many years since I've seen the film myself but he used his skills to track down all his former contacts so he could send Laserbeak after them - surely child's play for him but it was something. Also he still had his data tentacles even if he only used them to menace Carly, lol.

I'm not trying to say that at all, I was just pointing out people like to go after the movie characters without much thought put into the argument. Once you point out movie Soundwave shares many similarities with the original you have to instead hone in exclusively on the design to even make an argument about why it's bad in terms of not being like the original. Celebrating the differences is more interesting and is what I would usually do (BW Soundwave as posted above - reusing the name for a bat with sonar abilities was a great idea, but I'm not about to try and argue it's trying to be the original Soundwave because that's not the point [though I'm sure some fiction already made him the original Soundwave a la Magnaboss]) but in the context of this discussion I'm just pointing out what I feel is a weak argument

Soundwave stopped being unique the second Blaster rolled up. It doesn't change the fact that he's the one most well known for that sort of thing. You're right other characters in the movies use it, but despite that the ROTF team gave Soundwave that ability too because they recognized it was a well-known trait of the character. If they had said "screw it, we already did that twice" people would be bitching it wasn't there instead.

As for not literally ejecting Laserbeak, shrug. To me that's the same as the people who call for a new toy of a certain character not because the existing one looks wrong but because the physical transformation of the toy doesn't match the cartoon.

I'm not here to argue the merits of the DOTM design, I think it's fucking ugly regardless of who it's supposed to be. I greatly would have preferred if they stuck with the ROTF head because it just looks much nicer. But does him having a mouth really ruin it for you that much? Did Marvel Soundwave having a mouth ruin anything that character ever did? This is mainly what I'm talking about, once you dismantle the initial "it's bad because it's not accurate" argument people are just left to zero in on more minor and minor things.

 

"During the 1970s, Soundwave had tried to hide the Ark's presence on the moon by gaining human contacts in the United States and Soviet Union, whose creative accounting would render further trips to the moon financially unfeasible. One of these was Dylan Gould's father, while Dylan himself would later accept Soundwave as a client." - TFWiki

Soundwave also held Carly hostage to force Sam into relaying the Autobots' counterattack plans to Dylan.

 

Jesus the Soundwave argument is still a thing?

 

Taking hostages and international corporate business deals are now 'communications abilities' as opposed to, I dunno, actually tapping into phone conversations and hacking the planet? Or, basically anything Frenzy and Blackout did in the first film.

Wow, how standards have fallen.