Well, I would be frustrated if they wrote him badly, but at least I would respect them from trying.

As for Beast Machines, there were generics around used in the flashbacks and there were graveyards filled with these deactivated civilian bodies around Cybertron and they just used Soundwave and Prowl CGI models. So yeah, there were civilians there in order to show that there was once people around the planet.

Optimus is still the leader of his group, so I still consider him a leader-type character.

The problem is that making Optimus a rookie really isn't taking a risk. It was just adding characteristics of another character into him. A real risk would be having a character like Siren or Minerva or ROTF Breakaway as a main character instead of a familiar face (TFA did it with Bulkhead, but it was only one character compared to the others who were just previously established characters, but that made him feel somewhat out-of-place to me with all the heavy hitters around him). And also, the fact that the Decepticons got exiled by the Elite Guard just made them much more embarrasing considering how much of a joke the Elite Guard is on the show.

You say that my distaste for Optimus and Megatron blinds me, but isn't your admiration for Animated blinding you as well? Megatron was incredibly boring to me in Animated. All he did was be a disembodied head and when he came back, he just beat Starscream some and then stood around just giving speeches. I just never was invested in him and he didn't leave any impression on me (especially not when Starscream once again proved to be a much more competent and entertaining villain than Megatron ever was). There have been times where I could tolerate Optimus in G1 and RiD 2001 and even though I said that Animated Optimus is better than most, I still feel that he just doesn't feel like Optimus.

I liked what I've seen of Cyberverse so far, but others have seen more and prefer it a whole lot. RiD 2015 I've seen in full and despite some flaws and stuff that could have been improved, I actually could sit myself there and actually enjoy the show for what it is. TFA and TFP have always been massively overhyped to me and that is one of the many things that kind of increases my bitterness over them.

By better written TF shows I mean something like Beast Machines, which IMO had the most solid storytelling out of all the TF shows. And I don't think it undoes any struggles the characters went through in BW, but it actually gave them new struggles to cope with and things that they weren't used to doing (Rattrap learning to handle himself without his weapons, Blackarachnia now trying to be a comforting presence for Silverbolt when he comes back, Optimus Primal misunderstanding the Oracle's prophecy and almost dooming Cybertron and then learning of his mistake).

And I let TFA fans be pretty well. I dunno if you saw a thread that Maximus Danz did (as well as some other posts where we chatted, I think in this same thread), but while discussing TFA, I did explain my reasons for disliking it and he understood. So I do leave them be. Most of the time I reply, it's mainly because someone else replies to me and I feel the need to explain myself and really show my mindset. Plus, the reply I made to Smokeyoreo was because he said all people could agree on both TFA and TFP being better than RiD 2015 and I just had to speak up because not all people would agree with that (unless I really am the only weirdo in the universe who dislikes both of those shows). Again, RiD 2015 isn't without its flaws, but I could enjoy it despite them.

 

Here's my thoughts on Animated, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, RID 2015, and Cyberverse:

-Beast Wars is fantastic. It's probably the single best Transformers show out there, in terms of the quality of writing. I've watched the majority of the show, and I can't think of an episode or a character that I strongly disliked.

-Beast Machines is also really good. While I didn't watch it immediately after watching Beast Wars, and so can't evaluate its quality as a sequel, it was another show with terrific writing and decent character work. It's definitely a controversial show, and I can see why, but I personally quite enjoyed it (even if the Maximals' designs were the ugliest things ever.)

-Animated is a weird case for me, because while I really like it, I don't know how much of that can be chalked up to nostalgia (since it was actually the first Transformers show I ever saw, besides the 1986 movie). The character work was generally pretty good (though Bumblebee is rather annoying in Animated), and I thought the backstory for the show was one of the most unique ideas that the franchise has come up with (especially since BW/BM). That being said, the animation in the show is not my favorite; the giant chins especially are kind of weird. I really like Optimus, Ratchet, Prowl, Jazz, Captain Fanzone, Blitzwing, Lugnut, Blackarachnia, and Swindle (I always like Swindle).

-RID 2015 is okay. It's not great, it's not terrible, it's just okay. I liked Drift, his students, and Grimlock, and Strongarm was okay, but Bumblebee was bland and Sideswipe was annoying (he was like Animated Bumblebee on steroids for most of the show). It didn't help that it also had one of the dullest incarnations of Optimus Prime ever. The premise was interesting, but the show's plot felt rather formulaic, and a lot of the Decepticons were rather uninteresting. That being said, I liked Steeljaw, Thunderhoof, Fracture, and Shadow Raker quite a lot. Starscream's plot was handled reasonably well, and "Portals" (the first episode where Soundwave reappeared) was fantastic. However, my favorite part of RID, and the main reason I like the show, was the Stunticons. Drag Strip and Wildbreak in particular were fantastic, and it was a lot of fun to have the Stunticons show up in something again (even if only two of them kept their names and personalities).

-Cyberverse, from what I've seen, also falls into the "okay" category. Its backstory is rather uncreative, and the 10-minute format of the episodes isn't something I particularly enjoy, but it seems harmless enough. I do like the fact that there is a heavier female presence in this show than in most other Transformers shows, and Dead End is in it, which is fun, but other than that, it's basically just harmless and inoffensive. Not revolutionary by any means, but not the worst thing ever, either.

 

Sorry I had to make this I adore both shows tho

 

Here's an analysis:
Animated is known for its great storytelling and lots of character development.
Prime is known for being dark and its good animation.
Downsides:
Animated isn't done in CGI animation and isn't as serious as Prime.
Prime has some wasted character potential and often isn't for young kids.
Points:
Animation: Prime
Storytelling: Animated
Character development: Animated
Dialogue: Tied
Audience range: Tied
Soundtrack: Prime

Overall, they're tied, but I prefer Animated for story and character. For a darker story, better animation, and an overall larger world of fiction, I choose Prime.

 

What “darker story?” Prime refuses to do anything with the status quo and the protagonists always escape unscathed. They don’t even cover traumatic backstories as well as Animated.

 

For me, Animated just seems much more light-hearted than Prime. I have my ideas, you have yours.

 

Animated definitely doesn't take itself as seriously.

 

I can see this forum is populated by knuckle-dragging troglodytes.

Prime > Animated hands down.

Prime had a movie (Transformers Prime Beast Hunters: Predacons Rising). Animated has nothing

Prime won Emmys. Animated: nope.

Prime had a proper music score by Brian Tyler. Animated had loud obnoxious horns.

Prime had epic voice acting talent: Michael Ironside, Jeffrey Combs, Frank Welker, Peter Cullen. Animated had David Kaye but no Gary Chalk.

Prime had epic choreographed fight scenes incorporating acrobatics, gun-fu, wresting moves. Animated "duh let's slap a stasis cuff"

Prime had expressive CGI. Animated: cheap kawaii garbage.

Prime was so successful RID had to try ride it's coat tails. Animated: no direct follow on, no one cared.

Prime had more complex characters like Dreadwing. Animated: Duh Wreck Gar and trash jokes.

Prime had a much better story which didn't always end the same i.e. Season 2 where the base is trashed. In Animated every season followed the exact same structure. Autobots goof around battling discount comic book villains, with a couple of PSTD flash back episodes. Decepticons spend the entire season plotting only for a 2 episode finale where the lose anyway.

If you seriously think Animated is better than Prime than you are a child. A really stupid, petulant child.

 

I wouldn't go that far. I liked Prime more than Animated. But Animated was a very good show. It's kind of like Transformers's version of Teen Titans (not that Go! garbage, the real TT cartoon). Even with Rescue Bots (which was really only targeted towards young children), I still wouldn't fault an adult for enjoying.

 

Complex characters mean nothing if you waste them for no reason whatsoever. Dreadwing could have been given a lot more respect, but the way he was unceremoniously killed by Megatron just really gave me the feeling that the writers didn't know what to do with him. And honestly, the only characters that I would call enjoyable were Silas, Smokescreen, Wheeljack, Shockwave, Starscream, Knock Out, Bulkhead, June Darby and Fowler; all the others were either wasted or downright bland, boring, generic or annoying and irritating for me (Arcee, Ratchet and Miko fall into this category, I just couldn't stand them).

Jesus Christ... I dislike both shows (I find them extremely overrated, and as I've said before, when something is overrated and I just don't see the hype, I sour more and more towards the show), but even I wouldn't go that far. Calling fans who like the shows 'stupid, petulant children' is kinda disrespectful, no matter what you think of the shows themselves.

 

Literally your first post is a troll. LMAO, that's actually pathetic.

 

Not sure if satire or trolling, but if that was genuinely a real critique on how "Prime good Animated bad" I wouldn't be surprised since alot of those bulletins are always used.  

 

animated prime was boring and never arrive anywhere it was allways the same status quo

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that
your central argument is more or less as follows:

Given: Prime is superior to Animated.

Premise 1: “Failure to recognize the superiority of Prime over Animated is a failure to recognize quality.”

Premise 2: “Failure to recognize quality is a sign of childishness and petulance.”

Conclusion: “Therefore, failure to recognize the superiority of Prime over Animated is a sign of childishness and petulance.”

Thing is, I’m not sure how you would arrive at Premise 2, namely, that failure to recognize quality is necessarily a sign of childishness and petulance.

May I trouble you to clarify the logical connection between your terms?

 

The complete lack of self-awareness is hysterical.

This must be a troll-account. No one is seriously that delusional.

Yup, definitely a troll account.

 

You're right bro. Failure to recognise quality is the result of immaturity and childish behaviour. It's the equivalent of liking an old black and white TV over a 4K one. The latter is objectively better and it's only immaturity that blinds one to this fact.

Now you'd say quality is subjective ofcourse. But I'd argue even subjectively follows critieria based on objective inputs. For example Prime's voice acting talent was definitely more expensive. They had big names and heavy hitters like the Rock, Adam Baldwin alongside respected VA's like Frank Welker. Therefore you'd be hard-pressed to make the argument Animated had better voice acting.

Anyways an alternate argument is simply this: Prime was more mature than Animated. So it stands to reason than the people who prefer Animated are themselves less mature since Animated was aimed at them.

But heck if anyone is willing to list out Animated's superior traits over Prime, I'd be happy to debate them. But I suspect it's really only humour and flash backs.

 

Me, a Cyberverse fan:


But, on a more serious note, while I recognize Animated and Prime as two beloved series with their ups and down, they didn't quite click with me as Cyberverse did. There are things in both series that I liked. Aesthetically, Animated character designs is what I like - smooth and sharp lines, unique designs that don't make me confuse one mech for another like so many other versions do... I like that. Prime designs are hit and miss for me, I don't mistake one mech for another mainly because of the smaller cast.
Animated Decepticons are good, but even then, Prime antagonists as a whole are more enjoyable guys - Megatron who's not a dull tyrannical warlord, but that charismatic hothead that I see in most incarnations with a certain twist to him; Starscream who's actually rationally about his treachery; Soundwave, do I even need to explain that silent menace, especially in comparison to the fragile earthborn Animated Soundwave; Knockout and Breakdown are simply enjoyable. And that's just Decepticons, we also have MECH for antagonists occasionally, providing more of a threat than Animated supervillains (though, to be fair, I like some of those as well, especially Meltdown).
The heroes? Well, it's hard to say for me - I'm unused to Animated Optimus "upcoming leader" type, it fits RiD2015 Bumblebee better, the way I see it. While people call Prime Optimus dull (and I can see why), I like him, especially when considering his Aligned story. His Orion Pax persona also gives a certain side to this Optimus. At the same time other heroes are a mixed bag, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I like Animated Ratchet and Bulkhead, but at the same time I like Prime Bumblebee and Smokescreen.

So, yeah, I liked these two series about equally.

 

Are you really arguing "Prime threw away more money on VAs so it's a better show"?

 

In what sense do you mean "childishness and "immaturity"? Are you using these words to describe character traits or the level of refinement of one's tastes or in a different way? What I'm asking for here is a clear set of definitions through which, one may evaluate your case fairly.

This is interesting. From reading through your points here, I get the sense that you have a set of criteria against which to weigh something as better that others. But you didn't quite explain what those criteria are. I would like to hear them, so as to get a better sense of what you are saying here.

More particularly, how do you define the word, "better" here? Do you mean "better" in every way or "better" for the characters the actors were chosen to play? Moreover, is "better" determined by notoriety and expense or by something else? For instance, the Rock is a more famous and expensive actor than Frank Welker, but would you say then that he is necessarily superior to him because of it?

I don't quite follow this argument. Your argument would seem to imply a necessary connection between one’s maturity level and the kind of media one enjoys. But far as I can see, there is no necessary connection between maturity level and one's enjoyment of certain media.

For one, these two things (i.e. maturity and enjoyment of particular media) would seem to relate synthetically rather than analytically (i.e. "maturity" does not by definition logically contain enjoyment of particular media, unlike how the term "triangle" by definition implies three sides and three angles). So maturity and enjoyment of media are not logically linked by definition.

Moreover, outside of definitions, it is simply not the case that maturity level and enjoyment of particular media always correspond. If that were the case, then one could rightly argue the following:

Transformers are toys.
Toys are for children.
Children are immature people.
Therefore, Transformers are for immature people.

People who enjoy things for immature people are themselves immature people.
Transformers fans enjoy things that are for immature people.
Therefore, Transformers fans are immature people.

But surely you and I, as Transformers fans, know from experience that this is not at all the case. There are mature as well as immature Transformers fans, and our enjoyment of toys and cartoons does not indicate a lack of maturity compared to non-TF fans.

So, it would seem that maturity and enjoyment of media are not analytically related (i.e. by definition) nor do they always correspond in practice. Rather, it would seem that maturity and the kind of media one enjoys are distinct from one another, being related merely incidentally by way of inhering within the same individual.

Because of this, it appears that in order to determine why someone likes Prime or Animated, one must ask them their reasons, rather than diagnosing them beforehand. Which is why I appreciate your invitation to debate:

 

I’ve said this on the several other platforms but I can’t remember if I spoken my piece on this one, animated by far is the better of the two. When watching animated you can tell there’s much more of a passion project behind it DJW brought something to the table that really we hadn’t really seen since the beast era. Every single episode was filled to the brim with homages and Easter eggs for fans of the series encapsulating all generations. Looking back I don’t believe there’s one thing I would have changed, I’ll say for the exception of the series continuing past season three.

The cast was amazing, the art direction was impeccable, and the story was immersing, unlike prime which was very bland in its world building animated was a live with it and felt lived in not that that was really a fault of Prime itself however the art style didn’t lend itself very well to the limited budget it had. It felt very empty. And honestly that’s the biggest drawback to Prime. I appreciate what it did for the fandom, The content was there, the story was there but In the end the world felt so hollow and lifeless compared to what we had with Animated.