Reading the book "I Killed Optimus Prime"... it explains why people didn't gravitate towards Rodimus

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Proud Nintendo, Aug 4, 2020.

  1. Hellebore

    Hellebore Well-Known Member

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    a couple of things here.

    IMO, the animated film is one of the reasons TF is still popular today. It had such a massive psychological impact on its audience it stayed with them far beyond their childhoods. I can't remember the other shows and movies I watched and loved from the 80s anywhere near as much as that film. Whatever the reason they chose to do what they did, the result generated memories that have stayed with people. If the film had been just another episode, with no stakes or status quo shift, I don't think it would have been anywhere near as memorable - nay notorious.

    So whatever your feelings (and personally I loved it - because it had weight and was probably my first real experience of consequence and irrevocable change in entertainment as a kid), it was important.


    The whole Rodimus thing I find really sad actually. I never really liked Rodimus that much growing up but not because I personally blamed him for Prime's death (as a kid it just seemed like a classic hostage fight), but because they didn't really try to make him that likable in the 3rd season.

    What they were going for was a Luke Skywalker/Ben Kenobi situation (which is, sequentially in a very similar spot in the film to A New Hope anyway) and the story of how the chosen one comes of age and responsibility - the whole disembodied voice 'arise Rodimus Prime' even leans on 'use the force luke' to show the mentor is approving of and supporting the new blood.

    Unfortunately, unlike episode 4, TF the movie already had the mentor with a story arc and backstory played out in front of the viewer. so rather than seeing Kenobi through Luke (or Optimus through Hot Rod) we saw Hot Rod through Optimus because he went into the film as the protagonist. It's one of the reasons why (IMO) the prequels shouldn't be watched in in-universe chronological order with the first trilogy, because the protagonist beats are all different.

    So Rodimus didn't end up in the situation that he was intended to for the audience. If Optimus had never appeared until the film then he would have been a vehicle for HR's story. Instead Rodimus came off like an upstart rather than the chosen one. And it didn't help that the backlash meant Hasbro backed off their chosen one story line. Normally the hero goes on to greater and greater feats, proving their worth. But because of the backlash to prime's death, they undermined their own narrative, continually having him second guess himself, act selfish and appear lesser to the original, all the while feeling sorry for himself. Now this can work with heroes if they strive to be everything their mentor was or expected, but they kept driving on this reluctant leader schtick that eventually made it easy to reboot Prime and kind of make him the chosen one all along (the hate plague save was arguably more 'light our darkest hour' than unicron because it fixed the universe and drained the matrix dry, undermining the importance of Rodimus' victory against unicron and his place as the chosen one).



    Now while I loved the original, I think that it has shaped depictions of Prime and TFs in general far too much. The dies for our sins approach to Optimus is now a staple of his incarnations, making it mean nothing. The impact is gone - just like having Sean Bean in your film is a spoiler (unless you do it deliberately to subvert expectations)....


    Just as Hasbro killed Optimus for money, then brought him back for money, they now continuously milk that accidental plot arc for more money, for ever. Optimus took on a position that makes it hard for other stories to breathe, to exist properly because Hasbro rides the optimus train as hard as they can.



    I would like to see someone actually double down on the Hot Rod is the chosen one plotline and show that Optimus, for all his amazingness, was actually just the last keeper of the matrix and he knew and accepted this. I would like to see Rodimus done well and his relationship with Optimus done better. where the mentor spirit in the matrix guides him and communes with him.

    Or you could do the Babylon 5 Mimbari triad - the one who was (Alpha Trion), the one who is (Optimus Prime) and the one who will be (Rodimus Prime).



    TLDR: Rodimus was done dirty for the same reasons Optimus was killed and has suffered from it ever since. And this has been partly because they tried using a narrative device that didn't work in the context of the story they were telling and rather than try to improve it, they tanked it in order to go back to the status quo.
     
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  2. Cyberbot8460

    Cyberbot8460 Who The Hell Do You Think I Am?

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    Prime's death is his own fault. He's the one who blabbed on and on instead of just shooting Megatron. Plus, Rodimus is an easier character to write and that's why he's always so compelling. He was one of the best written characters in the G1 cartoon and one of the best written characters in IDW.
     
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  3. Rojixus

    Rojixus Celebrating 40 Years of Transformers!

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    Setting the bar pretty low there, aren't you?

    Now on that I absolutely agree, IDW Rodimus is exactly the type of Rodimus I have unknowingly wanted all my life. But alas, even this Rodimus got shafted once Autobot Megatron came and sucked up the spotlight like a vacuum.
     
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  4. TheUltimateBum

    TheUltimateBum Nautica Lover

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    Not really when, despite the writing of the time, he actually had a lot more depth than some of the other characters (definitely had a lot more depth than Optimus) and really showed that you could have a leader with problems instead of the typical confident guy in charge. Plus, IDW Rodimus tended to be quite unlikeable due to how much of a jerk he was.

    If you want an even better Rodimus, check Marvel UK (mainly Space Pirates). That was basically season three Hot Rod/Rodimus without the writing restrictions of cartoons at the time. Plus, in another story, he basically did what Optimus wouldn't bring himself to do (while a Decepticon begged for mercy the same way Megatron did, Rodimus just didn't make the same mistake Optimus did and basically blew his head up).
     
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  5. CryptiniteDemon

    CryptiniteDemon Well-Known Member

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    I've never really liked Prime. He's godawfully boring, and somehow they keep making him lamer with every cartoon. He makes Superman seem like an exciting personality. Rodimus was much more likable to me. I like my characters flawed. I'm just tired of Prime as a character. I can't take any more of this shitty, slow, monotonous cadence they keep forcing on him. Like how is the voice direction from a crappy 80s cartoon so much better for Prime than anything that's come out in the last 10 years?
     
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  6. ArcanielRE3

    ArcanielRE3 Honorary Autobot

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    Honestly... I'll never understand, from a purely business perspective, why Hasbro didn't do that. It would've been so easy!
    Bruh, I feel ya. The entire '86 film makes me feel a way. Damn, what a movie!
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  7. Nevermore

    Nevermore It's self-perpetuating a parahumanoidarianised!

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    Again, you are saying that from a 2020 perspective, which has been informed by the way the Transformers brand has been perceived for the past two decades.

    Back in 1984/85/86, had you asked any of the people in charge at Hasbro what they thought of releasing a new toy of the same character, they'd have asked you if you though of them as intellectually bankrupt.

    Back then, the mere idea of "two toys of the same character" was perceived about as imaginative as telling the same story twice. Hasbro was heavily pushing for new toys to be new characters, all the time. Even the fact that Galvatron was an upgraded Megatron, and Rodimus Prime was the same character as Hot Rod, was not mentioned at all by the bios on the toys' packaging. This was of course in part because Hasbro didn't want to spoil the plot of the movie, but also because they didn't want parents to be like "You already own that Megatron, sweetie. You don't need another one."

    Keep in mind that Hasbro was still very new to the whole idea of "characters". Before Marvel helped Hasbro modernize G.I. Joe as "A Real American Hero", they were just toys. Toys with no characters, no personalities except for those kids would give them when playing with them. The idea of giving toys a fleshed out story and pre-defined personalities was an almost revolutionary concept at the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro were totally surprised by how well it worked for the brand.

    The idea of "characters" being more than easily replacable marketing tags was likewise an idea that apparently never crossed anyone's minds until kids started crying when Optimus Prime died. For Hasbro, that was an "oh shit" moment.

    Its easy to judge Hasbro's decisions from a modern-day perspective, based on everything we know today. But you have to understand their mindset at the time, their lack of experience, and their frame of reference up until that point.
     
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  8. Bass X0

    Bass X0 Captain Commando

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    season three was enjoyable because Rodimus Prime was flawed. when Optimus Prime shows up in the first two seasons, you can expect him to save the day. when Rodimus Prime shows up, there's still a sense of urgency to the situation.

    He also had a crappy toy even by 1986 standards.

    I found him likeable because of how much of a jerk he was in MTMTE and Lost Light. I found the whole dysfunctional crew highly entertaining and compelling reading.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  9. ArcanielRE3

    ArcanielRE3 Honorary Autobot

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    I'm not saying they had to call the Powered Convoy toy "Super Optimus Prime" or anything. They could've still called him Ultra Magnus, and have him be an upgraded Optimus. Just employ the same strat they used for Galvatron, and Hasbro would be all set!

    I understand just how different the toy industry was before the multi-media franchise boom of the 1980s, but considering the popularity of both the comics and cartoons for both G.I. Joe and Transformers, surely someone at Hasbro had to know the popularity of their characters, right?

    I find it pretty hard to believe that they were completely oblivious of that fact, especially considering that character appeal is what sold some of the biggest toylines of the late 1970s (such as Kenner Star Wars and MEGO's World's Greatest Super-Heroes, among countless other licensed lines).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  10. Prime Noble

    Prime Noble Well-Known Member

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    I think might the first time I actually don't agree with you. Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime has always been my favourite Autobot while I hate Kup. Ugly design and a pain in the aft knowall.

    Sorry.
     
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  11. Venixion

    Venixion Its always the middle of the night in Moonside

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    Hasbro during that time was not hyper-focused on characters and it did not have a tight-woven and well fleshed out cast as Star Wars did, since that was a movie trilogy and not an ongoing cartoon. (Okay, so it had an ewoks cartoon but aside from that.)

    While I can't personally vouch for TF as a collector, I can vouch for another of their big- hitters back then, and we were barraged with a collect em all mentality with new figures that kept the line fresh and diverse and kids wanting more, and just like Transformers, it had rotating characters in its show. They just didn't get replaced so err... dramatically is the difference.

    Perhaps kids who did collect the originals can confirm or deny the collect em mentality with Transformer toys? I don't know, did they re-release a few favorites back then, like they do now? Or was it a You snooze, You lose deal?


    @Prime Noble I don't know much to anything about how command restructuring works, but I'm willing to bet that good looks generally don't supercede years of practical experience. And sadly, no strange moistened wenches that hung about in lakes tossed Roddy the legendary sword. ;) 
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  12. Magnus Leader

    Magnus Leader Young Optimus Prime is the Best Optimus Prime.

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    Kup: I knew you had potential, lad!

    Oh really, Kup?

    From the way you talked down to Hot Rod in a condescending matter throughout most of the movie says otherwise.

    No, but the spirit of the deceased Autobot leader before Rodimus gave him his explicit divine approval to take up the mantle of leadership.
     
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  13. ArcanielRE3

    ArcanielRE3 Honorary Autobot

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    Yes, its quite clear that they weren't. Still, I think it was incredibly short-sighted and stupid of them to have been totally ignorant of the popularity their characters had. Seriously, they invested so much time and resources into the production of comics/cartoons meant to sell their toys through stories... yet expected the children reading/watching to not become attached to the characters?! Ridiculous! Sounds almost counter-productive, if you ask me!

    Transformers was doing the same rotation sort of thing in 1985, and it worked out great! 1985 was almost certainly the peak of the brand's popularity during G1. I have no idea why they suddenly decided to take things in such a radically different direction in 1986, but I will commend them for taking such a risk (even if it was an entirely unnecessary one).

    I'd say Transformers has always had a "Collect 'Em All!" aspect to it. I mean, what kid (or hell, even adult collector) wouldn't want complete Autobot and Decepticon armies?

    As for your question regarding re-releases, I know Europe received a re-release toyline called Transformers Classics in the early 90s, but there wasn't anything like that in North America during G1, as far as I'm aware. Once a Transformer figure had been discontinued, that was it. It wasn't coming back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  14. Venixion

    Venixion Its always the middle of the night in Moonside

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    I recall him giving it to Magnus before he bit the dust. If the matrix chooses leaders, it had shit taste choosing an unsympathetic hothead who blows up other people's planets and doesn't want to be bothered with the responsibility after what? A few months at most? Which is why it decided to go back to the big guy.


    @ArcanielRE3 Couldn't agree more. And thanks for the insight on how they did business, particularly in other parts of the world.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  15. Nevermore

    Nevermore It's self-perpetuating a parahumanoidarianised!

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    The difference between the 1980s and today ist that distribution worked quite differently back then. Instead of new lines every few years with new titles and a small number of pre-defined price points with multiple waves that would rotate out older toys, there were a plethora of different gimmick-specific assortments every year. However, toys would also often ship for multiple consecutive years before being discontinued. These days, if you still see a toy that was released six months ago on a store shelf, you'd consider it a shelfwarmer. Back in the day, it would have been considered normal. Even after they were discontinued at retail in the US, some figures were still being offered via Robot Points mail order.

    The European "Classic" reissues (the line wasn't truly called "Classics"; many of the assortments were just called "Classic Heroes", "Classic Aerialbots", "Classic Triple Changers" etc.) came out just as Transformers was canceled in the US. It's uncertain if they would have come out in the US as well if not for the discontinuation of the brand.

    Also, some of those toys were technically not "re-releases", since they had never been available in those markets before.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  16. ThrustJan

    ThrustJan Well-Known Member

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    Rodimus Prime is an amazing character in season 3 because is a doubtful leader with his burden,I prefer him much more there that in the movie.
    Optimus Prime is still the best one but also Rodimus ,now that I'm adult ,I understand and appreciate as character. One of most inconic scens is the one where he looks for Daniel before he sleeps ,and that scene shows how he's also aware of his role,for him isn't just his teen friend but he must fill the void left by Optimus's death ,both for his human friend and Autobots.
     
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  17. Megastar

    Megastar Well-Known Member

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    I'm personally tired of the flawed leader type, because it's just an easy way for writers to have the characters do something stupid or reckless.

    I mean IDW Rodimus almost got removed from leadership twice by 2 people from his inner circle before finally being mutinied and the rest of the crew just going with it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  18. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

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    Rodimus Prime back in G1 is just poorly executed on all levels. He has a crappy toy, season three is all over the place, and the movie does him no favors.

    On paper though he’s a great character and stands in direct contrast to Optimus. Optimus is the paragon hero. No compromises, no real defeats. He always always wins. In fact, as a child I never got why the Autobots had to even flee Cybertron. Optimus was always pantsing Megatron so hard the Decepticons seemingly gave up on even trying to win. Optimus only faces black and white situations, and only ever sees things in those absolutes. And he always wins.

    Rodimus is in a harder situation. He’s got a more complex world to deal with where season three has Decepticons, many more threats from humans, alien cultures, and the Quintessons, all while trying to deal with and live up to Optimus Prince’s legacy. Unlike Optimus, Rodimus hasn’t been a leader for millions of years of war. Everything is just that much harder for him and he faces each day as a brand new challenge.
     
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  19. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    And it didn't even fit in his chest. (also remember when the Matrix literally bathed Hot Rod in divine light the moment he touched it?)

    And considering the whole plot was Hot Rod discovering his true potential, just giving Hot Rod the Matrix would've completely undercut the point of him earning it.

    Oh yeah, those few months where he brought Cybertron back under Autobot control, successfully established stable relations with not just the Earth's major governments, but other alien worlds, and drove the Decepticons to the brink of destitution.

    Hot Rod accomplished more in a few months of self-doubt than Optimus did in twenty years of unwavering self-confidence.
     
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  20. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    I see a lot of fans make these kind of comments and in all honesty are used to think that way myself but as I’ve gotten older I’ve come to realize that these feelings come from our own shock and dismay from the event at the time

    Trying to think of it from a business company’s point of you at the time, before Do you know GI Joe and transformers they really hadn’t been a show/fiction based on a toyline

    So there really wasn’t reason for the guys at hasbro to have considered the level of connection the fans had with a certain character......The guys at Hasbro really only considered the kids wanted new toys

    and speaking of the connection to that character think about this, How many characters were killed/or effectively killed In the film...... and the only real outcry was over Optimus ........there’s reason to believe that there wouldn’t have been as much of an Outcry if they had not killed Optimus
     
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