Are multiversal singularitys Omnipotent?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Skyfire98, Jun 20, 2020.

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  1. Skyfire98

    Skyfire98 You can’t beat the original!

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    Are they?
     
  2. Reygn

    Reygn Banned

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    No
     
  3. Cyberbot8460

    Cyberbot8460 Who The Hell Do You Think I Am?

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    They got rid of multiversal singularities by saying Nexus Prime used the Star Saber to get rid of em.
     
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  4. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    Even when they were a thing, no. Omnipotent means able to do anything. That clearly is not the case.
     
  5. Skyfire98

    Skyfire98 You can’t beat the original!

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    That sucks...
     
  6. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    1. I still don't believe they were ever really a thing in the first place other than Hasbro saying they were. Nothing in universe actually suggested it and the characters who were supposedly multiversal singularities were just as different in every universe as every other character who wasn't a singularity.

    2. How can Nexus Prime use the Star Saber to get rid of em when both he and the Star Saber themselves were Multiversal Singularities? Nexus would also have to get rid of himself and the weapon he was using to do it with. That doesn't make any sense. And again why would they even need an in universe explanation to get rid of a concept that never really existed in universe the first place? It was a thing only because Hasbro said so, and it stopped being a thing because no one really believed it a was. That's all the explanation it needs.

    That's not what Omnipotent means... I mean it's pretty damn close but not exactly. The dictionary definition says NEAR unlimited power like a god. Some gods are described as able to do anything which is probably why this misconception exists but other gods do have limited powers. Essentially as long as something is described as being a God or god-like it fits the definition of Omnipotence.

    The only characters who were ever Multiversal Singularies were in fact either literally said to be gods in universe (Primus and Unicron) or had god-like powers. (The original 13 Primes) So technically yes they would be and still could be considered to be Omnipotent.
     
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  7. Skyfire98

    Skyfire98 You can’t beat the original!

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    I had a feeling.
     
  8. Reygn

    Reygn Banned

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    Omnipotence/Omnipotent does indeed mean unlimited power. Only the creator of everything, the one who can make the unltimate choice, or do what they "want" can be classified as omnipotent. TOAA, before Regulator Thanos' whole thing, was the supreme being of Marvel. Someone who isn't omnipotent would be The Precense; while generally regarded as being the most powerful being in DC, he has been defeated more than once.

    I've never heard of either Primus or Unicron being omnipotent. So then the question is, has there ever been a confirmed being or entity above The Transformers ?
     
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  9. Scrapmaker

    Scrapmaker Hadar Sen Olmen

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  10. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    The only multiversal singularity I recall is a black hole in the Unicron Trilogy.

    But I think if you're bringing in cosmic deities, then they must be all-powerful.
     
  11. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    The One is essentially non-existent within lore. The few accounts of it are competing narratives as well. You could theoretically assume that by creating Unicron and Primus it should be more powerful than either or both but that still isn't quite omnipotent.
     
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  12. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    Nope.


    That's not the dictionary definition of the word. That's how Christianity defines it but that isn't the true definition. It's a misconception.



    So let me get this straight... You're saying that a character from DC can't be omnipotent because he has been defeated more than once but Thanos, a character who has also been defeated multiple times is omnipotent? How does that logic work?

    Or are you saying that Thanos is only Omnipotent when he's in possession of the infinity gauntlet with all six infinity stones. In which case yeah you'd be right but this also contradicts what you said at the start of the post. Thanos doesn't have unlimited power, the Infinity Stones have unlimited power not him. Thanos can be separated from the infinity stones which is a small seemingly insignificant weakness but enough to disqualify him from ever being all powerful. Heck even his own imagination kind of disqualifies him since he has the power to do literally ANYTHING with the infinity stones and just uses them to wipe out half of all life in the universe at random. That's not much of a anything at all when you considering the countless other things he could of done with that power. Heck technically he should of been able to use that power to ensure that only he could ever use it and make it impossible for anyone to separate him from the gauntlet but he doesn't. Yet he's still considered omnipotent because of the potential of the infinity stones he holds and despite the limited power he actually uses with them.

    Well I don't think they've ever been directly called Omnipotent. They have been said to literally be gods though and according to the dictionary god like powers is all that's required so they really didn't need need to say omnipotent, they just needed to call them gods.

    And yes it has been confirmed in universe that Primus and Unicron are "above the Transformers" as you put it... at least in some continuities. And this is another reason why they can't really be multiversal singularities. There are some universes where they don't even exist or are nothing more than larger planet sized Transformers not gods at all. Like in the G1 cartoon there's never any Primus and Unicron has a creator. In other continuities some transformers worship them as gods but it's not clearly spelled out that they actually are gods.

    In the Covenant of Primus however it is clearly spelled that Primus and Unicron are literal gods who are older than the universe itself. They're brothers. Primus created the 13 and gave them each some of his power so they're technically Demi-gods but still god-like beings. Quintus Prime is the one who created all other life in the universe starting with the Quintessons and eventually even creating humans so they're not only the Transformers gods but in universe they're even technically OUR gods!

    Which also fits your earlier definition even though it's technically the wrong definition, in the fiction Primus Unicron and the 13 were the first things to exist in the universe and they created everything else. So they are omnipotent.

    I'd also like to point out that even characters who are literally described as all powerful, are never really all powerful. Genie from Aladin is an all powerful cosmic being... but also a slave bound to grant 3 wishes to whoever rubs his lamp and is also trapped inside that lamp if he doesn't have a master to let him out. That's a lot of stipulations for a supposedly all powerful omnipotent entity. He can do literally anything but there are so many rules that limit how the magic works that it's not really all powerful. As soon as you add on even one tiny little restriction like say you have to power to do whatever you want whenever you want, bend the entire universe to your will, you are all powerful... but it doesn't work for 5 minutes, once a year, on the second Tuesday in June unless you eat 12 tocos. If you were really all powerful you wouldn't have ANY limitations at all. There's no such thing as being all powerful.

    Even in Bruce Almighty God tells Bruce he can't effect free will so even the literal creator of the universe isn't all powerful.

    (I'm trying to keep this in the realm of fiction by the way because we're technically not suppose to discuss religion on here... but this is a thread about Omnipotence which is defined as god-like power so it's kind of hard to discuss the top without discussing religion in some way.)

    Anyway this is probably why the actual definition doesn't say all powerful since it's never actually been used that way. The whole "all powerful" description is an easily disproven misconception since every character who has ever been called that has had some sort of flaw or weakness. It would be impossible to beat someone who is truly all powerful and the story wouldn't be very interesting with a character who was impossible to even over come which is why it's never actually been done. The phrase "all powerful" is more of an exaggeration of how much power they actually have rather than a literal definition of omnipotent. If a hero was ever really all powerful, every problem in the universe solved, no place for the story to go. If a villain was ever really all powerful, no way for any hero to ever over come them equally no place for the story to go. There has to be some sort of conflict for the story to happen and there can't be a conflict if anyone is all powerful and can end any conflict before it's even started.
     
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  13. Reygn

    Reygn Banned

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    I'm sorry I should be more specific in my comments.

    First off, were do you get the non-christian definition of omnipotence; every person I've ever debated who uses omnipotence does not say it's commonly misconstrued.

    Second off, no, the Infinity Guantlet does not have unlimited power. The Infinity Stones can only be used in their reality. Even in their reality, they can be overcome. When Doctor Doom had the power of the Beyonders, individuals from the Beyonder Realm, outside of space and time, he was able to defeat Black Panther, who was using the Infinity Guantlet.

    Third off, TOAA created the Regulators, select individuals who controled different aspects of the entire Marvel multiverse, Thanos was able to obtain the power of these Regulators, and used them to defeat TOAA.
     
  14. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Yep. I don't know what dictionary you're looking at.
     
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  15. Furnace

    Furnace Antroid at a picnic

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    Could I trouble you to post a link to that definition in a dictionary? I’m not trying to argue, it’s just that none of the dictionaries I have checked corroborate that definition in such terms and I actually want to know.
     
  16. FAKER II

    FAKER II Cheap Repaint

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    I think this point right here is the best example of why omnipotent can't mean "so powerful that it can do ANYTHING." My personal understanding is that omnipotent means to have all logically possible power. The power to affect free will is logically impossible. If will is affected by an outside force, then it is not free by definition. An omnipotent being could not create a married bachelor, 4 sided triangle, a poor millionaire, etc. If we throw out the law of non-contradiction, absolutely NOTHING makes any sense whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  17. Skyfire98

    Skyfire98 You can’t beat the original!

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    Instead of omnipotent characters we get bumblebee,bumblebee and bumblebee.
     
  18. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland

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    For the best. Omnipotent characters are ridiculously boring.
     
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  19. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    You're citing a Jim Carrey movie to support your argument? FFS. Just a heads up, but Bruce Almighty wasn't a documentary.
     
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  20. imfallenangel

    imfallenangel Well-Known Member

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    omnipotent
    Pronunciation /ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt/ /ˌɑmˈnɪpəd(ə)nt/
    adjective

    1(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
    1.1 Having ultimate power and influence.

    Omnipotent | Definition of Omnipotent by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Omnipotent

    omnipotent
    noun
    om·nip·o·tent | \ äm-ˈni-pə-tənt \
    1 : one who has unlimited power or authority : one who is omnipotent

    Definition of OMNIPOTENT


    Omnipotence
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Omnipotence is the quality of having literally unlimited power. Monotheistic religions generally attribute omnipotence only to the deity of their faith. In the monotheistic philosophies of Abrahamic religions, omnipotence is often listed as one of a deity's characteristics among many, including omniscience, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. The presence of all these properties in a single entity has given rise to considerable theological debate, prominently including the problem of theodicy, the question of why such a deity would permit the manifestation of evil. It is accepted in philosophy and science that omnipotence can never be effectively understood.

    Omnipotence - Wikipedia

    I could go on... but this isn't a forum about that sort of thing...

    Get over yourselves, accept the fact that omni = everything, and potent = force, authority, or influence and together they form the Captain Planet of all powers!

    Don't try to invent crap or rewrite a definition because it bursts your bubbles, just sit back, relax and let the reality of all of this slowly sink in, just let it happen.


    And for the actual question... the multiversal singularitys will be as powerful as the writer of that particular story decides them to be.. there is not going to be any valid answers outside of that reality.

    Any debate over the meaning of the word, any debate over what is a "fact" from a FICTIONAL work does not make you an intellect or anything of the sort, and I will stop at that so not to state what it really makes you.
     
  21. FAKER II

    FAKER II Cheap Repaint

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    I have no problem with omnipotent meaning all authority/force. The problem I have is with a false understanding that it would also include the ability to create or enact logical contradictions.

    I didn't invent the law of non-contradiction. That honor goes to Aristotle. Or at least he's credited with putting it to words.

    Without the law of non-contradiction, it's impossible to have any rational thought. Without it, there can't be any truth.

    So it is no stretch at all to say that "all powerful" does not include the ability to create logical contradictions.
     
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