Problems with RID2015

Discussion in 'Transformers Earthspark and Cartoon Discussion' started by mn_128875, Apr 13, 2020.

  1. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    The show never really clarified who the arm belonged to and the design doesn't really match any of the Primes we see in flash backs but they also only ever showed 12 Primes.

    Also I wish Hasbro had made Variants of Megatron with the Prime arm and the Unicron upgrade rather than the toy only Sharkticon design. I mean I like the Sharkticon Megatron but it's never used the show and I'd rather have his other on screen variants than a toy only remold.
     
  2. sonicwing

    sonicwing Well-Known Member

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    Windblade should've remained with the Bee Team.
     
  3. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    Well Sentinel was suppose to of had the Matrix of Leadership before it got passed to Orion Pax so I would assume that actually made him a Prime just not one of the 13... and they never said that you had to be one of the 13 to use the hammer, just that you had to be a Prime. So I would assume Sentinel would count.

    Plus I don't think anyone knows that Optimus is one of the 13 except for Alpha Trion so it would be kinda weird if it worked for him but not Sentinel.

    I do still find it questionable how Megatron can work it with just an arm when he is not actually a Prime himself. Doesn't it go by spark not just any random body parts? Oh well I guess that works... some how...
     
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  4. ChickenQuicken

    ChickenQuicken Well-Known Member

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    The kid's name is Russell. His dad calls him "Rusty" a few times as a nickname.
     
  5. DepthWave

    DepthWave Decepticon Storm Trooper.

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    Generally, I was fine with all of the cartoons you listed.
    The thing that really was wrong with the RID: all battles were the same- all Decepticons sort of never attacked the Autobots first, then the Autobots lost, then the Autobots were just attacking a Decepticon again and again, until the Decepticon was caught...Why are the Decepticons so ******ed? Do not allow one thing to attack twice- kill them. They surely have no honour and will come to you again and again, no matter, how many times so spared them.
     
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  6. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    Well what you described is how the game shows it but the game also never called him Orion Pax. He was just Optimus before he got the Matrix.

    Ever since Sentinel Prime was originally introduced he is usually depicted as the Leader of the Autobots just before Optimus and the one who gives Optimus the Matrix... or he's a jerk... or both... Prime never clarifies on any of this and different source material on the supposed history before Prime doesn't even collaborate the same story for how Optimus got the Matrix, so I'm really just assuming at this point based on how the story plays out in most retellings. Sentinel had the Matrix... this may or may not be accurate for Prime specifically but who really knows at this point?

    Maybe the arm doesn't belong to any of the named Primes we know. Maybe it's someone else entirely. I mean supposedly Sentinel was the only Prime between the original 13 and Optimus so there's really only 14 Primes in the entire history but that makes their history feel really short to me. I like in the G1 cartoon with all the Primes they show there passing on the Matrix. That feels more like there was actually a long linage of Primes instead of just ONE guy. It also really doesn't fit that well with the whole 13 idea but that concept didn't exist yet.

    Well they never said one of the Thirteen. And you would have to be a Prime to use the Matrix as well. It's not just the Forge of Solus Prime that rule applies to they said that about any of the relics of the original Primes, that you had to be a Prime in order to use them. The Matrix itself is a relic of the Thirteen, originally being a part of Prima's sword, so if you have to be one of the 13 to use it then the only reason the Matrix works for Optimus is because he is one of the 13.

    Come to think of it... How can the Matrix make anyone into a Prime if you have to already be a Prime in order to use it? The rules of the Thirteen relics don't really make any sense...

    Kinda like how we see Bulkhead swinging the hammer around but he some how can't use it? I mean the way they explain it is that you can pick it up but can't really craft anything with it. I would think that it would work by Thor rules where you shouldn't even be able to lift if. Because if you can lift the hammer there's really no reason why you shouldn't be able to use it. Is being a Prime suppose to give you some knowledge of how to unlock it's full potential or something?

    It's probably best we don't over think this too much.
     
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  7. HispasatBot

    HispasatBot Banned

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    I'm talking about Transformers: Exodus novel. Optimus Prime was ''Orion Pax'' before he became a Prime. And he was always a Prime since Megatron started the Great War... uh... due Optimus' ''betrayal''

    1- Sentinel Prime was never an Autobot in TF: Exodus novel.
    Starscream: You Autobots believe in redemptive action, atoning for failures of will, things like that, right?
    Sentinel Prime: I am not an Autobot. I am Prime. I ally myself with no movement.

    2- In both Transformers: Exodus novel and WFC game, the Core/Primus gives the Matrix to Optimus. Sentinel never had the Matrix in TF Exodus or WFC

    According to TF: Exodus and The Covenant of Primus, yes. Sentinel was the only Prime between Thirteen and Optimus.
    But according to WFC/FoC timeline, there were some other Primes before Zeta Prime.
    PRE-CIVIL WAR: ''A line of Primes have emerged to lead Cybertron'' (probably the Golden Age)
    WAR FOR CYBERTRON/GREAT WAR: ''
    Civil War ravages Cybertron for eons. The Primes fall.
    [​IMG]
    That's why I believe that Aligned novels and WFC/FoC games are different continuities.

    Maybe I misunderstood you. But didn't TFP show that Optimus went to the Core to fix it? Then Primus bestowed the Matrix upon him.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  8. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    That was in the WFC game. In the show, Orion Pax wasn't Optimus at all till he got the Matrix. But exactly how he got the Matrix was a little ambiguous. They just said he was chosen by the council to be the next Prime and that he received the Matrix of Leadership but not exactly how he received it. It seems like every Prime needs to have the Matrix of Leadership before they can actually be a Prime, elected or not, so that kind of makes it sound like whoever was Prime before him would have to pass it on to him.

    Another hint that Optimus Prime was never a Prime without the Matrix is his memory loss when he drained it's power defeating Unicron. He regressed to Orion Pax and couldn't remember anything he ever did as Optimus Prime or the events leading up to the council choosing him as the next Prime.

    Oh something else I wanted to point out about Sentinel... The first game only ever called him Zeta Prime. There was no Sentinel. This seems to have been later retconed making his full name Sentinel Zeta Prime. To be honest I think Sentinel Prime and Zeta Prime were meant to be two totally different characters, Zeta Prime most certainly WAS an Autobot as both games clearly give him Autobot insignias and the Autobot red tron lines. There are no neutral parties. And he's no where near the jerk that the Covenant of Primus describes Sentinel as which is very similar to his Animated portrayal. Trying to retcon the name to Sentinel Zeta Prime is a rather lame attempt to connect them even though they clearly still have very different personalities and histories. In my mind Sentinel Prime and Zeta Prime will always be two completely different characters. Sentinel Zeta Prime doesn't exist to me.
     
  9. HispasatBot

    HispasatBot Banned

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    That was in TF: Exodus novel too. And also in TFP.

    What do you mean ''not exactly how he received it'' ? He earned the Matrix after he went to the Core to save the Core from Dark Energon.
    Ratchet: Poisoning the planet, to its core. Orion journeyed there. Hoping reverse the ill effects. But he met our very life giver, Primus himself....... and he bestowed Matrix upon him.. etc

    This is Ratchet's point of view.

    He was a Prime before he earned the Matrix. How do I know? Because TF: Exodus tells this.
    He wasn't a true Prime. He became a true Prime after he earned the Matrix.
    He was chosen as the next Prime by the High Council. Both TFP and Exodus novel prove this.

    Yes, after he lost his memories, he regressed to Orion Pax/his pre-Prime self. He remembers everything before he and Megatron went to the High Council. You know, he became ''Optimus Prime'' after they went to the Council. Councilor Halogen named him ''Optimus Prime''.

    Actually, High Moon Studios made the character as Sentinel Prime, but somehow they changed his name as ''Zeta Prime''. In Aligned novels continuity, he is named as ''Sentinel Prime'', while he is named as ''Zeta Prime'' in High Moon Studios games continuity.
    This is just like Optimus. In Aligned novels and TFP, he was ''Orion Pax'' before he became ''Optimus Prime''. But in WFC, he was ''Optimus'' before he became ''Optimus Prime''.
    WFC Zeta Prime and Exodus Sentinel Prime have different backstories because WFC and Exodus are different continuities. This doesn't mean they are different characters.

    WFC game files refer him as ''Sentinel'' and ''Zeta_SentinelPrime''.

    Btw, isn't WFC Zeta Prime similar to Animated Sentinel Prime? As appearance and personality?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  10. KrazyKraang

    KrazyKraang Krazed Kraang

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    Something about Bisk, Clampdown and Springload really gets me. Besides these three the show was bum average. I wouldn't say it was bad( It would largely have been aimed at a young audience) but it was far from good/ memorable if you ask me.
     
  11. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    Again, never read Exodus so I'll take your word for it there. But that was never said at any point during Prime.

    Well you'd have a better understanding of exactly what I meant by that if you didn't quote me out of context. It doesn't even make sense the way you quoted it cause you chopped off like two thirds of what I had said that already explains this.

    "In the show, Orion Pax wasn't Optimus at all till he got the Matrix. But exactly how he got the Matrix was a little ambiguous. They just said he was chosen by the council to be the next Prime and that he received the Matrix of Leadership but not exactly how he received it."

    That's not from Prime. There's no mention that Dark Energon was ever used on Cybertron. More to the point that actually contradicts the pilot of the series where everyone is clearly seeing the effects of Dark Energon for the first time on Earth. So Dark Energon couldn't have been used on Cybertron before they even got to Earth when no one had ever seen it before and except for Megatron no one even believed that it even existed in the first place. Why would anyone not believe it exists if they've all seen it's effects before? Why do they all react to it as if they're seeing Dark Energon for the first time?

    Nope all that stuff is left very ambiguous, how Optimus got the Matrix, how Cybertron became a dead planet. We're never told any of that information in Prime itself. If you look at other source material you can sort of put the pieces together... though they don't exactly fit properly, and come to those assumptions but the show by itself doesn't actually tell us any of that.

    Right, but as I said above and in previous posts, judging from the show alone, it doesn't tell us this at all and even seems to contradict it.

    Well considering he is actually suppose to be one the 13 he was ALWAYS a True Prime, he just didn't have any memory of it.

    Both the video games and the Covenant of Primus prove this as well. This is really the only aspect of the story all these sources seem to agree on. No one is even debating that part. Everything else both before and after that moment are a bit contradictory. Some events even happen in a totally different order. In some instances Optimus is shown getting the Matrix BEFORE this event ever happened. In others he gets the Matrix. And in some cases he's given the Matrix at the same time.

    Again you seem to be taking information from other sources and injecting it into Prime. Who the F is Councilor Halogen?

    Um... what?

    1. WfC and Exodus according to Hasbro are the same continuity, they're both suppose to be part of the Aligned continuity. Though High Moon Studios originally intended it to be a prequel to G1 not to Prime. They were kind of forced into the Aligned continuity by demand from Hasbro.

    2. Being from different continuities actually WOULD make them different characters. Or at the very least different versions of the same character if they ever intentionally shared the same name. But Sentinel Prime and Zeta Prime were clearly two separate individuals entirely before the retconning to Sentinel Zeta Prime.

    WfC only ever calls him Zeta. Sentinel may have been a place holder at some point in the game's source code but we're talking about officially canon. That's like looking at the leaked script for Transformers and insisting on referring to Frenzy as Soundwave, Blackout as Vortex, and Brawl as Devastator. Whatever name he has in file isn't officially canon. Only what you see in the officially released game without hacking into source codes you weren't meant to see actually mean anything.

    Not at all. The only thing they have in common is a similar color scheme.

    [​IMG]

    This guy is a jerk who no one really likes but put up with anyway because of his status. Him and Optimus hate each other.

    [​IMG]

    This guy is someone who was actually respected nearly as much as Optimus Prime himself. Even Optimus himself looks up to him and fears he won't be as great a leader as Zeta Prime was.

    Side note: Rodimus Prime might not have been hated as much if he was portrayed this way. While both characters felt they weren't as good as the leader who came before, Optimus wasn't as eager to dodge his responsibilities and reluctantly just did his job despite not feeling worthy of it while Rodimus tried to ditch the responsibility at the drop of a hat.

    [​IMG]

    This guy is also a jerk who no one really liked. And you see now what I mean about having a similar design. Zeta Prime looks totally unique only vaguely sharing similar colors. This design here is just Animated Sentinel in a more Prime aesthetic. More to the point, Animated Sentinel Prime was designed to look like a robotic version of the Tick, another character voiced by the same actor, giving him a similar color scheme and body proportions to that character. And that's also how this guy looks. They even have similar body proportions while the WFC games went for more classic proportions than the overly cartoony style this guy and Animated shares. They aren't exactly the same I mean they did at least tone down the cartoony style a bit, his chin isn't quite as large but you can still make out the Animated design influence. He even still has that big screw in the middle of his chin imitating Tick's chin dimple. Zeta doesn't have this feature at all. You can see the yellow stripes on his head are all present in the same spot but aren't on Zeta. The large hands relative to the biceps with the giant shoulders. The smaller legs relative to the rest of the body. Zeta is the only one of these three who looks like his feet are actually capable of supporting his body.
     
  12. Gzstg

    Gzstg Autobot Historian, Armada Dub Defender

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    something that always bothered me about RID2015 was the lack of agent Fowler and Raf. when Bumblebee gets to earth shouldn't he have called agent fowler for help or as a heads up after he found out about the escaped Decepticons. I feel like his life would've been a bit easier if he had help from Fowler. the Government probably found out about the cons anyway so why not talk to Fowler and get help. and wouldn't Bee want to see Raf again even if from a distance?
     
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  13. HispasatBot

    HispasatBot Banned

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    Optimus thought the same thing for Sentinel Prime in TF: Exodus. He thought Sentinel was a great Prime while himself was just a clerk and not worthy to be a Prime.
    Also, WFC Zeta Prime and Exodus Sentinel Prime have similar events during the war.
    He faces Megatron in Iacon, Megatron defeats him, Decepticons imprison him in Kaon Prison, Optimus tries to save him, but the Prime dies.

    WFC and Exodus can't be the same continuity due many differences.
    Really, how can be they the same continuity while Optimus' predecessor is different in both medias? (This is one of many differences between WFC and Exodus)
    Oh, another difference: In Exodus, there was only Sentinel Prime before Optimus, while there was lineage of Primes (not Thirteen) before Optimus in WFC.

    Fans asked why the name of Optimus' predecessor is different. Hasbro couldn't say ''Because WFC and Exodus are different continuities'' So they said Sentinel and Zeta were the same individual (Sentinel Zeta Prime) But this doesn't make sense. Their names are different. If Zeta Prime was the ruler of Cybertron and ruled it with the caste system, why would the Autobots chose that jerk as their leader? That proves WFC and Exodus are different continuities. In WFC continuity, Optimus' predecessor is Zeta Prime. In Exodus, Optimus' predecessor is Sentinel Prime. (They are both jerks, but Exodus Sentinel Prime is more jerk-ish)

    I'm talking about Transformers: Exodus novel, the prequel to TFP? (I don't consider WFC/FoC as TFP prequel because TFP matches better with Aligned novels(Exodus,Exiles,Retribution)

    Isn't Halogen mentioned in Covenant? I didn't read it, so I don't know.

    But in WFC, Optimus became Prime during the war. But TFP, Exodus and Covenant state that Orion Pax became ''Optimus Prime'' prior to the war.

    But the flashback shows Dark Energon while Ratchet says ''Poisoning the planet to its core'' in One Shall Rise, Part 3. Also, even TF: Exodus and Covenant prove this.

    This is a retcon. This weird thing a.k.a. retcon happened in TFP for three times:
    I took these from TFWiki:
    1- Dark Energon: Notably, although the Dark Energon infection of Cybertron's core as seen in Exodus and War for Cybertron is made clear to have happened, the episode only refers to it as "poison", probably to avoid highlighting the incongruity this creates with the characters' lack of familiarity with the substance back at the start of the series.
    2- Optimus and Megatron's past: Ratchet's statement that Megatron started the war after not being made Prime contradicts the history given in "Darkness Rising, Part 1", where Megatron is said to have split from Optimus during the war. Optimus could have believed that the war began with the initial movement of Megatronus, or Ratchet could be bringing continuity closer to Exodus.
    3- Orion Pax: Ratchet also says Optimus has lost all memories of being a Prime, which means he should remember up until he received the Matrix of Leadership. By that time, Megatron had already started the war, started the Decepticons, corrupted Cybertron, and proved his true nature to Orion. Yet, Orion displays no knowledge of Megatron's fall to evil, the Decepticons, Cybertron's shutdown, and still regards him as a friend and teacher. Arcee comes close to bringing this up, but ultimately, the issue is glaringly ignored.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  14. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    In my head canon I agree with you but officially according to Hasbro they are suppose to be regardless of the fact it doesn't actually make any sense.



    Honestly the only reason is because Hasbro said so.

    Again I agree with you. Sentinel Zeta Prime is just a poor attempt to connect two different characters who really shouldn't have been connected at all.

    Zeta Prime isn't a Jerk though. In all honestly he barely appears in the story at all and is pretty much only there to die so Optimus can become the next Prime. We only know about him through the couple of brief scenes he's actually alive and by reputation, how other characters in the game react to the news of his death. Not a single character has anything negative to say about him and if he were a Jerk you'd think at least one Autobot would be glad to have a new leader.

    I haven't read them so I'm just going by what was actually shown on screen during Prime itself.

    If they were it was a very small role in the story. There were a few incidental characters mentioned in that book who barely did anything, other than get their name dropped once only to be forgotten moments later. I vaguely remember they also mentioned another Medic who either trained Ratchet or worked under Ratchet who's name I also can't remember. Halogen might of been one of those names that was mentioned off handedly and then never brought up again.

    Side not they also did that with the 5 bots who form Nexus Prime. Their names are mentioned once and I can never remember then without looking it up on TFWiki. They don't even use the names of the original Nexus Prime... and I kinda wish they did because at least Heatwave is actually memorable. But aligned Heatwave has nothing to do with Nexus Prime.

    Right... Well at least the stuff I've actually seen just taking your word for it with Exodus.

    In that case then Exodus really doesn't fit with Prime either. In the pilot of Prime it's said that Megatron flew out into space looking for a legendary substance called Dark Energon. Starscream and the others didn't really believe it existed and Starscream especially was taking advantage of Megatron's absence to lead the Decepticons not thinking he would ever return.

    Although we're also told that Dark Energon is the blood of Unicron and since we later find out that the Earth is Unicron I question why it was never found by the Decepticon miners on Earth.

    Anyway... when Megatron comes back with Dark Energon everyone reacts to it as if it's the first time they've ever seen it. So it couldn't have been use on Cybertron before it was introduced in Prime otherwise everyone in Prime would already know about Dark Energon and what it could do.

    I should also point out that the effects of Dark Energon are completely different between what we see on Cybertron and what we see in Prime. It was never used to create zombies, it was however used to boost the power of living Decepticons… which we also see some what in Prime but Megatron reserves this power for himself while on Cybertron he powered his entire army with Dark Energon. (Including Starscream who also originally guarded the only supply of Dark Energon with Jetfire the Aeiralbots and the other Seekers before him and the Seekers joined the Decepticons. So it really makes no sense for Starscream to be seeing Dark Energon for the first time in Prime when that was literally his ONE job back on Cybertron.)

    Yup like I said, TFPrime never mentions Dark Energon ever being used on Cybertron and directly contradicts this fact.


    I don't think that was really an issue. Optimus became a Prime at the same time. That's what initiated all that other stuff to happen AFTER he became a Prime. So it makes perfect sense for Orion not to have any memory of it since those would be Optimus Prime's memories not Orion Pax's memories. If Orion Pax were to keep any of those memories there's also no reason he wouldn't remember being named as the next Prime, he would still know he was Optimus Prime but would only remember the very beginning of the war not all of the events that lead him to be on Earth. This is why it's a major clue that he received the Matrix right away not some time later because if he didn't get the Matrix till later then he should still have all of those memories up to the point where he actually received it.
     
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  15. SpiraPhantom

    SpiraPhantom Decepticon Propagandist

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    That is, assuming it hasn't been too long from Earth perspective. I do not remember if there was any time reference, but I had that fridge horror moment when I thought that it may have long enough for humans from Prime to pass on.
    A more troubling point would be the absense of Knockout, a fellow cybertronian who'd actually have a legit reason for being on Earth due to his love of local automobiles, even inspite of the Council's restrictions. Or even to have him as one of the Alchemor Decepticons to drive the point home about the Council.
    It's... disappointing how much potential was wasted.
     
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  16. Gzstg

    Gzstg Autobot Historian, Armada Dub Defender

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    you make a good point. though i thought the kids were supposed to be re introduced in RID15. that may have just been a pitch meeting thing though. indeed it had much wasted potential. imagine seeing the kids as adults and doing there own things with unit e. I didn't even notice the lack of knockout. if he is on earth I assume he just didn't want to get involved with things.
     
  17. TransMuffin84

    TransMuffin84 Empress of Cybertron

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    I think the creators confirmed it's only been three years since Prime ended.