It doesn’t matter to me what his opinion is; he’s entitled to it.
And this isn’t an anti BSF post either; just a disagreement with him on this matter.

I personally don’t think it’s a lie. I differentiate between 4P and KO, in that 4P does things different with the ko, so that it’s not a straight ko. My favorite example is MO1 Commander. With its O/S and many improvements it is not a straight KO by any stretch of the imagination. Or even WJ’s Detective with its re-engineering.

I have a straight KO of MP Sideswipe. That’s what I call a KO.

But can we be real for a moment: what we call “3P” isn’t any more noble than KO- despite the fact that 3P does their own designing and engineering. It’s still ripping off HasTak. If anyone wanted to argue that 3P was also a ko, I don’t think I’d argue with them on it.

And really, if BSF thinks 3P is better because they do their own work then I believe he should be more flexible toward 4P because they put additional work into improvements.

I just find myself amused at BSF and his crusade against KO’s (which he is entitled to, don’t get me wrong) while touting the virtues of 3P... even tho it too is theft. From what I understand he sells art at Con’s... and he probably thinks there is a difference between drawing a superhero and tracing it... but unless he has the license to do so he’s just as guilty of wrong doing.

I own it all, so I don’t care. I just want to be honest about it, that’s all.

 

I'm one of the few that seems to actually listen to what he says instead of brushing him off (yes guys, you do it all the time). But..... He does have a weird fixation on how OK 3p is but KO's are bad. Both are technically illegal, so its pretty funny.

People like this generally are people who either presume they are better than others and buy only the purist of TF's, or they are people who pick and choose who to support and generally pledge loyalty to a company. Strip 3p and official toys of their company names and logo's and you wouldn't even care. KO's are around for those who can't afford the original, don't think the original is worth it, or want improvements made. Respect other's decisions and don't see yourselves as better human beings for simply buying the "right" plastic toy.

 

Who is BSF and why should his opinion matter to me?

Also, what we call 3P isn’t third party.... it’s just an easy way to label them. Easier than calling them “IP infringing unlicensed transforming robots”.

The “knockoffs with upgrades” are often called 4P even though they aren’t. It’s just an easier label.

Either way, buy what you like. Don’t worry about what others like and buy. Rest easy.

 

They are, though. Third party just means any party that isn't the producer or the consumer. Hastak is the producer, they are the first party. We are the consumer, we are second party. Any outside party is a third party, regardless of whether they are a licensed third party or an unlicensed third party.

First, second, and third party just refers to the relationship between parties/groups in a given situation. It's the same kind of idea as "first, second, and third person".

 

I own very few KO’s. I think I have two. For as long as I am able and can afford it, I will always buy the real version(s) over KO’s. That’s just me. Nothing morally whatever against them at all.

I also wouldn’t call my “improved” KO’s “4th party.” I just call them (OS) KO’s. Yes, I like them better than the versions they were knocked off of; but they’re still KO’s to me. It isn’t a dirty word to me and I don’t mind calling them that.

There are hundreds/thousands of people all across the globe cosplaying as IP-Protected anime and video game characters and they make money off of it. There are hundreds of artists who make artwork of IP-protected material and sell their work.

Sounds kinda like what 3P companies do, eh? 3P’s aren’t stealing anything more than any of those other types of people I mentioned.

 

The cake is a lie.

 

Oh, so you're not going to post a thread critiquing his opinion, then?  

@Alph is correct. 1st party = producer. 2nd part = customer. 3rd part = other party that producers stuff to go with the stuff produced by the 1st party. There is such a thing as 4th party but it refers to a party and makes things for the third party producers. So if FT were to outsourse their rather joints to some other company, that company would be a 4th party.

KOs whether improved or not, are just more third parties. People feel the need to differentiate them from other 3rd parties but 4th party is completely the wrong term because it already has a meaning.

 

Don't have a problem with BSF as much as the people who listen to what he says like blind sheeple.

But, I always thought that 4P was knock off 3P. *Shrugs*

 

What does 1 have to do with the other? I can just as easily agree with him and still start a discussion about it.

 

I don't care what he says. Just some asshat with a camera and a google account, like the rest of them.

 

^^ I agree with all of this.

 

why do i care what the bible study fellowship thinks about 3p?

 

The law doesn't care about "nobility," it cares about facts. A toy that is an original design is and avoids using HasTak's trademarks is at worst copyright or design infringement. And the reason you don't see Hasbro taking legal action against companies like MMC and Fans Toys is because proving it is still a high hurdle; Hasbro owns Optimus Prime (TM) and the fiction he appears in (©), but not the concept of red and blue trucks that turn into robots.

A KO isn't just infringing on a design or copyright, it's a counterfeit. Counterfeiting is generally considered a more serious crime that faces harsher penalties.

4th party still isn't real, because it doesn't exist. HasTak, who owns the IP, is the 1st party. The consumer is the 2nd party. Anyone else is a 3rd party.

 

But...but cake... 

 

This. I actually like BSF quite a lot, his collecting sensibilities match mine in many ways so his reviews work for me in that regard.... but man does he lack objectivity and practice a lot of cognitive dissonance when it comes to both G1 and 3P. He has a real blind spot for these areas where I find he's a lot more objectively critical in others. I still think he's a good reviewer, I just know where his bias lays and apply salt where applicable.

On '4P is a lie'...yeah it's a silly and inaccurate term for what it's still both essentially 3P and KO... but it's a good way to describe when KO company go that little further in 'fixing' or 'improving' on the original. Thing is though... of you don't agree you don't have to buy the T-shirt. It certainly isn't something worth starting a thread about... or indeed writing two paragraphs on... whoops.

 

I enjoy BSF’s videos, so this isn’t a criticism based on any dislike for what he does, but I can differentiate my enjoyment of his videos and my regard for his arguments, and he has the reasoning skills of my anus. Now, my anus knows to pucker up so I don’t shit myself, but beyond that it’s pretty worthless.

 

This. Legally these are very different things. Derivative works are treated very different than exact/modified duplicates.

People can justify it all they want, but our courts have decided that counterfeits are a worse crime and there’s a lot of reasons for that.

 

Agreed

I agree, I like bobby, but I think he stumbles on his anti-ko crusade (I buy KOs, Don't care what anyone thinks) but I agree there is a difference.

 

3rd party PotatOis

 

The name third party came into vogue when such companies mostly made upgrades for official products. Getting a complete fabsproject bruticus requires you (party 1) to buy a toy from hasbro (party 2) and then the upgrade kit from FP (party 3.)

Now that we can buy FT or Xtb figures that are complete products on their own and hastak isn't involved at all, the name doesn't really make sense any more. Unofficial or unlicensed would be a better term.

4p would only be the correct term if you were buying, say, a repro label set for an upgrade kit for a hasbro product. It's a really stupid name for KOs, upgraded or not.

Coming up with a separate term for upgraded KOs vs straight KOs seems like splitting hairs.