"Justified"? Never. Not under any circumstance are they "Justified". KO's ARE theft and there is never "justification". I've had my work stolen/KOed and I certainly don't appreciate it.

When are they "acceptable"? When the developer of the original F'd up. Be that materials (MPM-8 and reportedly MP-47 which I passed on), paint (or lack there of. MPM-4 which was inexcusable to only paint the front half and MPM-8 which I own and it is pathetic), QC (All the MP coneheads which I did initially own but they were horrible.), scale/size (MP-8 or SS Blackout I am not a scale junkie but these aren't even in the ball park), or replacement parts (I've done this for MP Ratchet to fix a broken pin joint).

Price is NOT an acceptable reason for KO. I mean no offence with this, but if you can't afford your hobbie, than you need to reevaluate your expenses and prioritize. For me, if an item is expensive, I save for it or take on some contract work. I do not whine about getting a KO before the actual official product release and I only go the KO route very selectively if the official is a train wreck. Am I "justified"? No. But I find it morally flexible in extreme cases to be "acceptable". I will admit that lately, I do feel that TT is artificially inflating their pricing with useless "that thing from that episode accessories" that only 1% of people actually care about as well as the over engineering for the, debatably, inferior "toon" aesthetic over the original "scale model" Hasui aesthetic that the line was built on and serve for over a decade.

Hobbyists/collectors should ALWAYS support official product first and only go KO if there is no other option. Price does not count.

 

I give money to whoever gives me what I want. Plain and simple.

 

What if my hobby is collecting KOs?

Perfect. This is what I should've written as my earlier post but I'm one of those "why use five words when 300 will do?" types.

 

Price does in fact count. I mean I can like it but simply not think the item is worth the price, so I buy a KO for the price I think it should have been. If you cant get an expensive figure for way less and that’s the only way, do it. I’m not going to be an asshole and call you poor because you can’t afford expensive collectors items. As an artist only thing that pisses me is when people pass the artwork as theirs. Otherwise, I don’t get angry over it because these are fucking TOYS. Spend your hard earned money however you want

 

You claim that “price is NOT an acceptable reason for KO” and then go on to say that you feel Takara is artificially inflating prices with useless accessories (I agree 100%) By that logic, Takara could put dozens of useless accessories in the box, inflating the price tenfold, but one should not by the KO that is a third of the price because the original is not a “train wreck” Seems like an odd argument.
One does not need to re-evaluate their expenses if they can not afford a hobby, if said hobby is raking them over the coals with inflated prices. Nobody will ever justify MP-44s price to me. That’s why we have the KO option.
Saying that buyers should “ALWAYS support the official product” makes you sound like you are employed by Takara or Hasbro. They are billion dollar companies, and having someone by a KO over their overpriced, usually flawed in one way or another product is something to be proud of, as it shows you a better with money than a sheep like mentality, whose though process is I’m going to work more hours to afford this overpriced item so I can feel better about it and express my superiority on the boards.

 

It's justified when it's cheap as heck

 

I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, have not read the entire thread, only the first page or so, and this may or may not fall under a justification, but more from personal experience, since I only came into the MP hobby a couple of years ago. I am sure there will be disagreement on this one, but when a company like Takara Tomy produces limited quantities or runs of an MP, and fails to reissue to meet continuing demand, they only feed the secondhand market. At this point, Takara is not loosing a dime, they've made their money, and the people making money at this point are people trying to turn a profit, none of which goes to the IP holder(s). If companies like Takara would either produce larger runs or continue with reissues every so often, it would discourage companies from doing straight KO's. However that is not the case, I came into the hobby around the release of MP-39, Takara had already had 38 releases, and up to that point, were not so much into doing reissues which made "catching up" nearly impossible without either buying second hand used MP or KO's. As it turned out though, thanks to the + line, I ended up replacing most of the Takara KO's with officials, only five remain, and one of them will be replaced soon with the release of the + version of Smokescreen. So, it's not my fault when companies lack faith in the TF brand and refuse to reissue, and it's not my fault when the secondary market would try to charge "collector" prices and I'm not willing to be a sucker, cause I've been down this "collector" road with many different types of "collectables" and at the end of the day, a thing is only as valuable as what someone is willing to play, and most someone's would think I'm a sucker for buying any of these toys for any price. lol Well that was fun, fire away!

 

When I have the funds for their purchase.

 

I'm not the one going to jail for making a KO toy, or have a store selling them, so as far as me owning them if either or both of the above disappeared I'm fine. It would suck but it's not the end of the world. It would mean that KO companies would (maybe) transition into making original 3P figures.
The justification angle is merely a "do you care or not" dilemma. If I can find the original for a price in the secondary market that I believe is fair I'll get it, but if some reseller thinks a toy automatically doubles in price "just because" then I'm going to look somewhere else and if that somewhere else happens to be a KO that's at my price point then there's my justification.

 

If you REALLY want to get technical about it. KO is not theft, at least not in those countries where they produce them. If you are going by the laws, it’s theft to do so in US land but the laws in Asia make it perfectly normal to reproduce and otherwise sell copyright protected items

 

I buy whatever I want for reasons that make sense to me, officials, ko’s 3p and osko’s and have no issue with how anyone chooses to spend their money, but this thread does make me wonder something.

For those who are 100% in on ko’s of takara or Hasbro products, would you still be fine with ko’s of fanstoys, or other popular 3p companies? I only wonder because this side of the board can come across as very (sometimes justifiably) hostile towards TT. Is supporting original 3p designs from smaller companies more important than saving a bit of money and buying the ko?

For example if there was a ko FT Roadking available for 40% less, would you happily buy it over the original?

Would it depend on the figure or company, assuming the build and quality was the same or at least comparable?

I have an ko version of striker manus and I did go back and forward on that one for a day or so before I bought it, but as I have and original Noir and a good few other of maketoys figures I figured I had supported that line as much as I was going to and wouldn’t have spent the money on another official of the ‘Striker mold’ anyways.

 

I would buy KO due to cost. That’s really the only reason for me. Better quality, if it is, is just icing.

 

Well, they kind of self-justify based on market conditions. By that I mean, if there isn't enough latent demand to support a run of KOs, they probably wouldn't be produced. Basically, KOs only make sense if there is a significant demand that the official item isn't capable of meeting. This mainly happens when there's a significant market for the item that can't reach its price threshold, either because the item is no longer available at retail (G1 KOs, MP10 and MP Soundwave back in the day), or because a significant portion of its target market isn't willing to pay its retail cost (MP Dinobot, Megs, Beast Megs, MP-44, even MP Lambor was very expensive when the first KOs came out). These KOs are of substantially similar but possibly slightly less quality than the official product. Sometimes things labeled as KOs seem to be factory rejects that have been "rescued" from the junk pile. This kind of KO is basically just a cash grab, although one I don't think harms Has/Tak nearly as much as people think (a person who buys a KO because they can't afford the official product wasn't going to buy the official product anyway, so Has/Tak has lost nothing... BUT some people--like me--who get their toes wet with the KO end up going ham afterwards with official figures)

The other main reason is when the official product leaves its purchasers unsatisfied. Often the official figures' decos don't do justice to their sculpts, or the sculpt has fit and finish issues, or engineering issues that the KO fixes. (Yes Model's Seekers and the IT Megatron KO are good examples of this). The WJ/BMB KOs take the MPM figures, improve their paintjobs and sometimes elements of the sculpt and engineering, and when necessary upscale them (or upscales Studio Series figures) so buyers can have a consistently-scaled display of MP movie characters. Sometimes this gets taken to extremes, such as the Black Apple KO versions of pretty much anything, where the KO has been upscaled with significant reengineering and new parts to (usually) be more accurate and (sometimes) transform more smoothly. (MPM Optimus and MP Ironhide are the best examples) ... to me this is an extreme kind of KO because it's basically a labor of love instead of just a cash grab. The KO company is doing the figure "right" when it wasn't done that way before.

Then, there is the EXTREME extreme, where an official figure is used as a base for what is essentially an entirely new figure. This can take different forms. Open and Play Big Cannon, for example, seems like it's just an upscaled KO of Titans Returns Galvatron, but only the lower legs and feet are upscaled... the entire rest of the toy is an original mold (to create far more screen-accurate robot and cannon modes), yet it's still seen as a KO. The new upscaled, heavily remolded Studio Series OP from the Bumblebee movie is another example... it's been altered so substantially from its source that it presents as a new toy to those who don't know. At this point it's debatable whether the toy is actually a KO anymore, IMO.

An even more extreme example is Ju Jiang Jet Commander, which copies the Combiner Wars Aerialbots' engineering ONLY but uses NONE of the same parts, creating entirely new (and, again, far more screen-accurate) robot, plane, and combiner modes. To me, at this point it's actually NOT a KO anymore, as official products frequently reuse engineering and nobody bats an eye (Earthrise Starscream comes... screaming... to mind). FansToys accused Cloud 9 of doing this with Quakeblast... again, since there wasn't a single shared part, the most they could have copied was the engineering, and how big of a sin is that? I mean, people have found lots of ways to make Motormaster transform but most Seeker, Shockwave and Grimlock transformations are substantially similar... my son's Ultimate Grimlock isn't really all that different from my G1 toy which really isn't all that different from my MP toy or FT Grinder.

 

To be clear, I called no one " "poor". If you infer that about yourself, that is not my problem. I am stating that if something is "expensive", I save for it or I work hard for it. The KO culture is KO for the sake of KO as if there is some righteous crusade against a big business.

On the other point... As an artist and toy designer having had my work KOed, is EXACTLY like someone passing my work off as theirs. I don't comprehend how you can say that it pisses you off when someone steals your artwork but it is fine for someone stealing someone else's artwork. That is bullshit.

To try to be more clear,... I meant to say that price is not a "justification". The definition of which is: to prove something to be just or right. To treat as righteous or lawful. Which doing the actual KOing is not.

If you cannot afford your hobby,... If said hobby is, "raking them over the coals with inflated prices". Yes, you need to reevaluate your hobby. Period. It may just be that you need to be more selective about your purchases or set and stick to a budget instead of buying everything. But, if you are spending your rent or grocery money or racking up a ton of debt on toys and you can't see the problem, than you need help. Some people do that.

I mention TT because it HAS gotten to a point where it is, debatably, not worth the price tag. And it's getting worse. There IS a breaking point where excessive price can be an "acceptable" rationalization but I do not feel it has reached that yet. The excuse that TT is a "billion dollar company" so it is OK to steal from them (the KOers not you) and claiming it "is something to be proud of" is a bullshit rationalization and implies a great deal of entitlement, which none of us have.

As for myself, I acknowledge a certain level of hypocrisy. I rationalize it under only extreme cases when the official product is flawed well beyond the norms (mass brakages from untested material, literal half paint deco, etc.) AND the rare occasion when KO provided an improved version. In these cases, the official developer had their chance to make a good product and failed. I do not, currently, use price an excuse. I take issue with KO for the sake of KO when there is nothing wrong with the official.

 

That’s very much what you implied

But as pointed out below, there is a big difference between “stealing” from a multi billion dollar company vs smaller or even starving artists. That’s why I’m able to not enjoy my work being taken and passed off as someone else’s while not caring about TF molds being KO’d. Artist/designer that made it already got paid for it, so at this point it’s the billion dollar company taking the hits, not him.

A friend of mine once said, “No one feels bad for the millionaire when they are stolen from because they can just buy back whatever they lost, but the average joe gets robbed and loses everything.”

(still think he reads too many books on this stuff)

 

@XIII -

I think you worded everything there much better. Without picking anything apart, I agree with almost everything you said.

I do however think there is a big difference from “stealing” from the (far far far) richer, than say.. a starving artist or something. Some members may also love the hobby very much, and would like to continue to get transforming robots and still have money leftover for other things though.

Not that I do it personally (I am not interested in 99% of KO stuff - I own one KO and it’s a correctly scaled IDW Overlord legends figure with a IDW face) though.

But I also am very indifferent to the people who just want to buy a KO because ... well, for whatever reason they desire. Whether its a legitimate reason, or not.

 

I agree with every point except for the last one you gave. If you can get the official product, and there are no differences, then you should get the official version. To me, that is the only example of an actual KO. All of the others are just 3rd party figures to me.

 

Reasons I’ve bought KOs?

Ratbat. Had no interest in Soundblaster and wouldn’t have cared not having Ratbat in my collection, but seeing him on eBay for a few quid made me decide to add him. Had TT released him separately, I’d of bought the official. (Did get the official Wingthing repaint later)

Exhaust. Had the official preordered, it was cancelled due to the licensing issue. The listing claimed it was KO, but it was bought within days of the intended official release and when compared to the official Wheeljack, there’s no difference.

I’m also considering buying a Prowl. I already have the official version, as well as one of every Datsun repaint, but it always feels like I’m going to break the clip that holds the hood to the body and given he’s my favourite MP, I want one that I can transform and if it does eventually break, it won’t matter.

 

I'd say when it comes to third party figures I'd rather buy the originals. These companies aren't drowning in millions and tend to have fairly decent prices compared to TT.
At that point it just boils down to supporting the company to make more stuff. Takara can miss your 200, a third party company might not.

 

Sideswipe (official) was $85 plus shipping. Tigertrack (KO) was $25 shipped. Both have been transformed and generally messed with more times than I can remember. YMMV but as far as these two copies, build-wise, they're identical.



Regarding the moral complexity of the matter, consider that a company's copyright can last no longer than 120 years, so with HasTak having Transformers© for only another 80 years max, KOs could reasonably be considered early-release post-copyright production runs; therefore, completely legitimate, and justified like homicide yo.