I don’t know about the Marvel comic, but in IDW there is growth. Stardrive took five cycles to reach physical adulthood.

 

Didn’t know that I haven’t read all of their books

 

Whether or not Transformers physically "grow" kind of varies from continuity.

Obviously, most of the time, they don't. They're forged the way they are and any future changes to their bodies are the result of modification and upgrades. IDW was odd, with the distinction between "forged" bots who did grow out of weird living metal and "cold constructed" bots who were just assembled in factories. But we're barely shown what the "forging" process looks like; we get a look at the new Protoforms born from Trypticon, who haven't fully formed themselves yet and are missing a lot of physical features and details, and when Anode revives Lug in a new protoform body. Lug starts out as a box and eventually forms a new body.

The movieverse is weird about this kind of thing too. The metal they're comprised of apparently has the ability to heal (which necessitates a form of growth), which in most continuities is explained by self-repair systems but we're never told that this is the case with movie bots; that they can suffer near permanent injuries also suggests that there's a limit to their ability to heal. Via the "hatchling" protoforms, we're also left to assume that movie bots can grow from something resembling childhood to adulthood.

 

So...back to the topic?

 

That's not an assumption.

Optimus after being rebuilt by Nebulans or all Decepticons created by Shockwave in Blackrock's factory don't even qualify as Cybertronians if you insist on your theories.

Their bodies were built from the scratch by people who had no idea of budding, since it's Furmans idea that did not exist before the nineties... Lol.

Also, all the time immature transformers were mentioned in Marvel G1 it was mental maturation, not the physical one. If a bot was given a new body, he was rebuilt. On the other had there are TF Universe bios that mention bots coming from assembly lines...

 

granted budding wasn’t introduced at that point, but it’s wouldn’t be the first time we are giving a retcon that doesn’t quite jive with what we have seen before in a series cough....matrix of Leadership....cough

And maybe “assumption” was too strong a word but you are overlooking options

To paraphrase what I said before, Shockwave and Goldbug would have followed their own “blue prints” , using every file they had on their “biological” makeup

And with that info they could have incorporated the ability to bud into those new bodies without even knowing they were doing so

Humans born off world on a ship or station would still qualify as humans, so I don’t see why it would be all that different for Cybertronians

If you recall, before they went to Nebulon they attempted to build a new body on earth......and failed.Perhaps they were missing some “special element” that they couldn’t find/substitute or replicate at the time.....the Marvel G1 cybertonium lol.....and maybe it is that “Special element” that allowed for budding

And maybe the Nebulens could replicate that martial, certainly Goldbug would have taken everything they had on file about the materials in their bodies with him to have the new body built

and again, we have seen them grow old...Physically, Even growing mustaches with the mustache getting longer as they get older

it’s not so clear cut as many think

True enough, but I don’t think that fully counters anything I’m suggesting

“assembling line” can be “Metaphoric” for the marvel g1 as megatron being “born” was to the g1 cartoon

keep in mind, this is more for fun then a serious debate

 

Budding is, technically, Generation 2.

Which was made and marketed as a continuation to Marvel G1 continuity, but then the question is:

Which continuity. And which continuation should count.

I don't think that Furman really knows how continuity or retcons works because by now he made a three different continuations.

Another Time & Place which is contradicting G2.

Then the G2 books.

Then the ReGenerationOne.

Retconning Primus and Unicron and the Matrix is a fairly non-conflicting thing. The Matrix as ritual storage for the creation program.


But there are things in Marvel G1 run that simply don't work with the G2 ideas:

Grapple, Smokescreen and others having their minds backed up as data and then uploaded into new bodies.

Optimus himself being backed up as raw data.

That apparently TFs can be fixed with the galaxy standard electronics bought from Mecannibals.

Only Pretenders being adressed as having any synthetic (non-carbon based) biology with their shells.

Because taking aside the Generation 2 story arc, the Generation 1 Marvel bots are mechanical. At the very best they have living attachments like Nebulan partners or Pretender shells.


And again, exchanging faceplate to a moustached one isn't exactly growing. For all what it matters in the comic books it could be a rebuild.

 

I don’t see how there was any real question about which continuity, seems it was intended , by at least “the powers that be” to be a continuation to Marvels G1 US continuity

And I don't think that Furman really doesn’t Care about the rules of thumb on how a continuity or retcons works, I think he feels they are sometimes a hinderance to the stories he wants to tell. But I don’t feel the 3 examples supports what you are claiming about his story telling issues.

I haven’t read Another Time & Place but from what I know that book is it contradicting anything.Its just a story being told about a “possible future” that did not come to past, which is done in comics all the time, one example: days of future past

G2 stands alone and ReGenerationOne was intended to be an alternate timeline from the start

I feel what he did by retconning Primus and making the matrix a tangible object were more problematic then the alternate future stories, but that’s my opinion

I don’t see much issue with the season 2 characters having their mind then uploaded into new bodies as it relates to G2.....But I’m willing to hear why are you do

I see a difference between the coping of Optimus and those others different, at least with Grapple and the others the coping was done with Cybertron tech..., not s floppy disk

I don’t recall electronics from Mecannibals...., mind refreshing my memory?

Also, I’m not seeing/understanding your complaint about the Pretenders and having synthetic bBiology with their shells and how it relates to the G2 story....maybe I’m missing your point there because I don’t see how the G2 story creates any contradiction

And again, you are assuming it’s an action of exchanging a faceplate.Nit that I deny it’s a possibility but it was never shown to be the case

It could just as easily be actually growing

 

Sure. Optimus sends Cloudburst and Ladmine to purchase processors on the galactic market because they're needed for fixing up the Underbase Saga casualties. He's not sending them to Cybertron and he doesn't even mentions manufacturer. He just wants to get microprocessors on the open market.

Because it means that Marvel G1 Cybertronian conscience is lines of programming code, regardless of the data storage it uses. Like programmable machines. Nobody in-story doubts Optimus being Optimus. End of topic.


It's also not possible for Nebulans to rebuild any "budding" background traces because nobody knows that this was ever a thing. They're just building a robot, like workers in the Blackrock factory.

Because they were all published as continuations.

Another Time & Place also is Marvel. It simply comes from before G2 was in plans.

G1 Marvel TFs are machines. That's what is in G1 books. There really isn't a field left for interpretations here.

Neither it was really shown to be grown.

 

Sure!

Like, what purpose does the spark serve in some continuities?

In Beast Wars, where they were introduced, they were pretty much just folded into the brain module (which in pre-BW fiction was usually the center of personality and consciousness), and Animated did the same (Prowl tries to save Yoketron by transferring his spark to a new body). The Beast Wars/Machines sparks, under some circumstances, could act without a body, though this wasn't usually the case and outside those situations, the spark couldn't survive outside a body. Animated sparks were never shown to be capable of roaming freely outside the body. Beast Wars was interesting because, while it also had some mystical elements, sparks were usually said to "come online", rather than being grown or something, implying they were advanced technology and the mysticism wasn't necessarily as mystical as it appeared.

IDW1 turned it on it's head. Prime and Bumblebee both died, their bodies (sparks and all) destroyed by the Crystal City singularity (which Bumblebee's body was sucked into at the end of Dark Cybertron). In Infraspace, they were reduced to streams of consciousness and data, which were subsequently uploaded into Pyra Magna's brain, and later into new bodies with new sparks. So obviously, in this situation, the spark wasn't the center of their being; meanwhile, in Lost Light, Anode was able to bring Lug back by capturing the remnants of her spark in protomatter and forging her a new body, and somehow Lug retained her memories. The only explanation offered for that is by a guy who suggested it's possible for the brain module to bleed through into the spark, allowing the spark to act as a memory backup, however unintentional. We don't get any further explanation, because he died.

So, in Beast Wars and Animated, the spark is basically just the brain module. In IDW1, the two things are separate and it's unclear how important one is to the other, but the spark is definitely necessary as the power source for the body at the very least, as well as in defining something as being Cybertronian life.

Then there's the movieverse.

The first time we hear the mention of sparks, it's in the 07 movie when Optimus says he'll merge the Allspark with his own spark to destroy the cube and keep it out of Megatron's grasp. When Cade identifies it as Optimus' power source in Age of Extinction, Optimus gives the typical explanation of what a spark is (housing their personality and memories), prompting the comparison to the human concept of a soul. But then, Megatron, reduced to a head and having no spark to speak of, was apparently still alive and able to influence the creation of his new body, Galvatron, who possessed Megatron's memories and personality.

This kind of throws a wrench into Optimus' explanation, since Megatron's sparkless head with his brain split in half was still conscious and self-aware (though it's possible KSI merely accidentally woke him up when trying to access his brain). It's also possible that, since his resurrection by the Allspark Shard, movie Megatron wasn't truly alive to begin with and that allowed for his return later.

But that's just speculation and we're never told one way or the other how that worked.

 

thanks

I think you misunderstood me

I said I didn’t have issue with the the Duplication odd Grapple and the others and how that relates to the G2 book

Again, those “copies” were made with cybertron technology, and could be far more then just coding

That’s just not the case
They don’t need to know that they are building in “budding” tech , they only need to duplicate everything in the blue prints

It would be akin to reverse engineering, they may not no what every part does, but if they Replicated every part exactly then they would have also would have Replicated the budding ability

Yeah ,separate continuations

Another Time & Place is again, a possible future story No different then the movie adaptation was for the US continuity

Again, This is nothing new in comics, it happens all the time

The human body is also called a machine

If you don’t wanna talk about it further that’s fine, I only brought this up for a little bit of fun but there is certainly a lot of field left for interpretations here

G1 marvel had at least two working theories for how they came to be, and neither one of them wisdom flatly in the field of being “not life”

I never said it did, only that what we were shown opens the door to interpretation and conversation as well as debate on the issue

 

You can't reverse-engineer anything if you don't understand what it does. I'm sorry, it's just not how engineering works. Especially not complex engineering. Building robot is not simply a recreating a shape of a sword you saw somewhere. You need understanding what laws of physics make the engines and the electronics tick to recreate them.

Another Time & Place is about as possible as all the other endings, no less.

 

Again that’s an assumption, and I said it was “akin” , (you know as on similar but not exactly the same thing) to Reverse engineering......remember this isnt the real world here, it’s science fiction so Real world reverse engineering doesn’t really apply here

anyway, it could be as simple as a chemical compound (again like cybertonium) that was capable of being replicated by Shockwave and Hi-Q when those bodies were being built. If you recall before going to nebulous they tried to build Optimus a new body on the StealHaven....But after the upgrade to Fort Max, the creation of the Pretenders and Repairs to a few robots They didn’t have all the materials to do the job properly

They may not have known everything that compound was Responsible for n a tf body, but Surely would have reproduce it if they could

ok , but what’s your point?Of course it’s as possible and ending as any other, my point is it contradicts nothing since as I said it was just a story about a possible ending, it’s just not the one that came about as the story continued or was added to

This is something employed in comic books all the time, “Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow“ “The dark Knight returns” “Old man Logan”.......The list goes on and on

 

It does apply.

Because, let it sink, to build a complex machine powered by any kind of energy you need to know what kind of energy can be used for powering it and how it must be supplied. You need to know how it works, period. There's a degree to which common sense still applies even in fictional situations.

 

I’ll give you that It’s possible “compound” in question could be responsible for a great number of transformer body functions that arecimmon knowledge .....But because Primus wiped their memory of the budding abilities it’s not something they remembered it could do

So again, they could have incorporated the ability to budd without even being aware of it

 

Cybertronians? Maybe. Humans rebuilding a body out of blueprints that do not contain it because it was wiped out of the memory? Hardly.

 

Shockwave was in charge of the project on earth

Hi-Q was The equivalent of Tony Stark or other fictional human geniuses, I would expect if anyone could on nebulous it would be him given all the info I’m sure Goldbug brought with him from the Ark or Steelhavens computers

 

Yes, you're going to build metal plates, circuits and cogs that have to be composed out of nanites or synthetic cells (to allow for budding) with use technologies amassed in human-built airplane factory, especially with workers shown on panels assembling those bodies part after part.

Same like Hi-Q is not going to notice that the blueprint is for a synthetic organism and it will never be brought to the front or adressed.

Same like like a supposedly cellular organism is going to be perfectly fine by having its nerve centers repaired with random electronics.

G2 is G2 and I think the idiocy of this idea is why it never was brought again for G1.

 

Fantastic, another thread got Sto Ko Vor'ed...

 

They're robotic beings, that's all.