I don’t think he could shower or cook the beans because he is driven to the point of insanity. Rorschach would be completely different if he had a normal upbringing or for instance had Adrian’s. When you talk about Rorschach I feel like you think he’s just choosing to be who he is, I don’t think that’s the way he’s portrayed. Because he’s a product of a crime ridden slum. There’s a reason Moore is using the murder of Kitty Genovese in Rorschach’s story. Rorschach is inextricably tied to crime ridden New York in the 60s, and especially the 70’s. Plucking the character out of context and environment then questioning why his behavior isn’t normal is completely unfair. Rorschach’s character is as much about class as anything. Remember Daniel is also wealthy, Adrian is fabulously wealthy Rorschach is the only destitute character who is actually born immersed in crime constantly. The urban decay of the 70’s is as much a character as mutually assured destruction. BTW I am aware if Mr. A and Ditko and exactly what Moore is trying to do. I don’t believe Moore used Manhattan as a surrogate, I think he said he was something like the ultimate 50’s white male, not very Moore. Of course everything is for naught, you know everything is for naught as soon as you know Adrian is Ozymandius, 'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!' The lone and level sands stretch far away.” I don’t think you can walk away thinking anything but Adrian’s ultimate failure cause it’s right in his chosen name. So everything you said about Rorschach is true, except the character has no true “choice.” Both Adrian and Jon are well above life and truly acting like gods Walter is the only one in the mire and still doing the “job.” I love the character because as fucked as he is he still fucks over Adrian. And Rorschach is the only one who won’t live a lie. Maybe because he can’t? He can’t live without the filth that produced him? Maybe cause his thinking is so fabulously binary and rigid he would rather die than conform to the great lie. Either way he’s a beautiful monster and endlessly appealing.. Daniel and Laurie are happy living a lie, I would identify with Walter and rather be another body in the foundation than live a lie. In the words of the American poet Willie Nelson, “If you’re living a lie it will eat you inside, and nobody slides my friend.” Okay so here are my final thoughts most of what you’re saying I completely agree with, except Rorschach’s depiction he’s more complicated than that, and better than that. Yes it’s a deconstruction, yes Moore is an Anarchist. You know that when you look at the book and it’s essentially a simile face button with blood on it...Life is Pagliacci, (It’s Rorschach’s dialogue BTW) But Moore’s anarchy, in my opinion, is more of the critic who is showing all the ultimate failings of mankind, governments and hubris (the nuclear age) is a horror but it’s a horror brought on by mankind an mankind is still ultimately a beautiful and worthwhile thing that should exist. Even in the Dr. Strangeloveesque parody of America Moore loves humanity. I think Moore basically saying life is random and pointless and the only meaning is the meaning we bring to the table. But as evidenced by Jon’s return and Moore’s loving treatment of the characters that in itself is worthwhile. And therein lies my concern about HBO I personally don’t think this looks capable of hitting those beats and I don’t think Lindelof has the kind of chops to do it, I truly hope I am incorrect.
I don’t think this is good so far. Tim Blake Nelson will get me to episode 2 I guess. Fuck if this isn’t exactly what I expected.
I thought it was interesting, but I'm still not certain why this had to be in the Watchmen universe, instead of being it's own thing. Also, I thought the Watchmen comic history was only an alternative history (from ours) from Nixon's presidency forward, but then I've never been a big Watchmen fan, so maybe I missed that...
It was alternative before that, we didn't have masked crimefighters running around in the 40s. But if you're referring to the opening scene, that wasn't alternative history. That actually happened.
What, you mean because they'll make more money if the Watchmen name is slapped on it? Or WB/HBO only okayed it if it was tied to an existing IP? Or both? Oh, I had no idea -- looking it up now.
...I think that "The Watchmaker's Son" play that Veidt is speaking to his servants about could end up being about his intention to Spoiler recreate Dr. Manhatton .
I normally like these shows, but i profoundly hate this, like i really hate this, i should of given it longer i guess but after the first 20 minutes all i could think was ohhh great another white people are trash, hicks, racists, bash the white people show, to be honest ive seen this a little to much in shows in recent times so any new shows that use this get chucked on the trash heap, i already have to many tv shows i watch
But only some of the white people in the show are depicted as trash racists -- they are the Seventh Kavalry. On the other side, there are plenty of white cops.
Caught it last night. The feel of it is right in line with the Watchmen, but it could have been written as a tribute without tying it explicitly to the Watchmen universe, avoided shoehorning in the squid rain, and probably wouldn't have gotten the backlash it's currently getting. It's a semi-interesting setup, but so far it's not unique, nor visionary, nor any of the other "highly anticipated" words HBO has been using to promote it. In all honesty, I think it's only flying because HBO got jealous of the dudes who ruined Game of Thrones claiming they were going to write a show for someone else where the South won set in modern day America with full-brown racism on constant display. And those two dudes ain't capable of doing anything more than the cursory surface scratching of a subject that explosive without full-on stepping in it. Looks like this show might be setting itself up to do the same. I'm not really sure the world needed more racist displays paraded in front of them without any form of analysis for people to argue about round and round, but hey, more power to them. Maybe they can do something REALLY controversial and copy the Handmade's Tale next? 'Cause more chauvinism is at least as "punk rock" as more racism. Just kinda burnt out on the whole thing already, and it's only been one episode. I realize it's a set up episode, but it doesn't feel very well fleshed out. The person we open the show with got zero characterization before he was gone. That leaves me little faith the cardboard cutout "characters" we've seen thus far will ever get past the stage of being cookie cutter cannon fodder. What's really sad is there are true issues within the narrative, but they're ignoring those issues to push the "edgy" factor. The characters suffer, the story suffers, the plot lags, and we're tossing in random Watchmen references like somehow that's going to make up for the parade of stupid in the rest of the show? Meh. They get one more episode out of me, tops, if they don't do something interesting and actually start to explore the issue they're parading through the screen. If it's literally just racists vs. face-hiding cops? Meh. And out. Not even Jeremy Irons can save a snore fest.
Yes. I actually liked the episode more after thinking about it for a few days. My issue is that it lacks the scope and impending doom of the original story. That being said I think he is grabbing a hot fucking frying pan by touching on these social issues. But I give him credit for trying something different. These are issues the country is coming to terms with and they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Nor is he really, at least so far I have my doubts still, being super preachy. The gun lock in the cop car is a tip of the hat to that as is the squid-rain. That squid shit was a lie, so if it’s raining squid still the government is almost definitely behind it. I think there is more going on than we think. I am sticking with it longer until I get more of an idea what he’s doing. And Don Johnson’s character has to be a bad guy.
Also if you’re a fan of the original comic well....HBO created this site with another character’s notes, Special Agent Dale Petey from the Anti-Vigilante Task Force. It basically fills in the history since the original story ended.... Hurm.... Peteypedia
Spoiler Yeah, I think Louis Gossett Jr's character is going to explain some things to Regina in the next episode. I also think LGJ will end up being Hooded Justice. It could just be a red herring, but all those ads for the American Hero Story TV series, which seems to feature Hooded Justice -- that's got to tie in somewhere.
Hmm. Maybe don't take it so personal? If the fact that the villains are white supremacists makes you feel like ALL the white people in the show are portrayed as villains (they're not), imagine how black people feel, considering we are grossly overrepresented as criminals and/or slaves and tend to end up dead in most movies we appear in. It's also worth pointing out that making a show about racial terrorism might seem exploitative or "inflammatory" to you, but racial terrorism is a real and ongoing part of minorities' lives. I had an uncle who was literally lynched by the KKK. My dad was targeted by COINTELPRO. Stephon Clark was my nephew's good friend and was killed in my city by a police force that 1) preferentially targets minorities for enforcement activities, and 2) is far more likely to use force against minorities. That's not politics, that's numbers -- objective facts. I don't think lots of folks understand the extent to which horror is a constant undercurrent in the Black Experience here. You're expected to fail, and everything is designed to lead to those ends... and success makes you a bigger target, as the black communities in places like Tulsa and Rosewood learned the hard way. I think it's telling that so many people thought the opening scene was sensationalistic when it was, in fact, an accurate portrayal of that event. (The Tulsa Massacre was the first time bombs had been dropped from planes on American soil). What seems "over the top" and sensationalistic to you is... ACTUALLY REAL LIFE for us. It's painful that so many people find the traumas we've actually sustained to be so unbelievable. That's why in 2019 it's so hard to get people to lend credence to the reality of those traumas, even when they're captured on video. That's precisely why movies like Get Out and shows like Atlanta and Watchmen are so satisfying to so many of us... they're works of fiction that, notwithstanding the fantastical elements, feel real to us. I get that it's uncomfortable to have to question your assumptions but it's actually good for you.
The American Hero Story is this show's Tales of the Black Freighter, and we all know from the comic that 1) Hooded Justice -- notwithstanding his intervention when the Comedian raped Silk Spectre -- wasn't as good a guy as people thought, and 2) he ended up being killed by the Comedian. However it plays out, it will be an allegory for the moral arc of the show's main characters.
Oh thanks. It's been a long time since I've read the book (or even watched the movie), so I didn't remember him being killed by the Comedian. And great point about the American Hero Story being the Black Freighter of this story -- I look forward to seeing how that plays out.
He doesn't explicitly kill him in the book, but it's strongly implied that he did. (IIRC, it's explicitly spelled out in the prequel miniseries). I went from being completely unenthusiastic about this show based on teasers, advance articles, and scuttlebutt, to being absolutely in awe after watching the damn thing. I did NOT expect it to be like THIS... and I mean that in the best way possible. I love it when people use the emotional distance that fantasy gives us in order to explore issues "too real" for more conventional shows.
Agreed, especially when they depict the Seventh Kalvary at the end Spoiler lynching the white chief of police, who is shown as being one of the "good guys" (coke habit or not) a la Commissioner Gordon to Night Sister's Batman. That said, there's quite a few things to unpack in this episode, starting with the opening scene showing the Tulsa Race Massacre. I had to Google it for detailed reference and it's yet another shameful chapter (among numerous other shameful chapters) in American history. It does set up some background involving Louis Gossett Jr.'s character (I'm thinking it's along similar lines of Eric Lenscher's Magneto in the first X-Men movie starting with the Holocaust scene). The police being depicted as masked good guys versus the (also masked) Seventh Kalvary as the bad guys seems overly simplistic to me but it's only the first episode. They'll more than likely expand on the morally gray themes sooner rather than later. That Rorschach as a symbol has been co-opted and corrupted by evil domestic terrorists seems like a realistic outcome from the fallout of his manifesto inspiring/radicalizing those with extreme fundamentalist views to begin with. The stuff involving Veidt (any excuse for naked Jeremy Irons ) and the squid rain confused me somewhat as I had incorrectly assumed that this series was based on and would be a continuation of the Watchmen live action movie (which I have seen) rather than the comics (which I haven't read), but my wife (who is a big fan of both) filled me in on some of the (odder) blanks (like Robert Redford having been president instead of Ronald Reagan). We're intrigued by the first ep so we'll keep watching. Looking forward to the next one!
Didn't care for the first episode. It felt like a series of mixed metaphors and I didn't really feel that it expanded the ideas and story of Watchmen in any big way. The parts I really liked were using the boy in the Tulsa Massacre as a Krypton/Superman allegory, the flipped Birth of a Nation in the fictional Trust in the Law, Looking Glass's interrogation sequence and the blood dripping down onto the badge at the end. With episode 2, I loved all of it. The reporters using Mothman's technology and the news vendor made me realize they weren't just touching the obvious two or three characters but were actively taking from every part of the original story to create a new one. When Night Sister found the KKK uniform I knew this show was going to go to great places. Drawing a line from superheroes to the one time a bunch of Americans actually put on masks and took the law into their own hands, and what that looked like, is a stroke of genius and I'm mad David Lindelof thought of it before I did. Can't wait to see where that's going. And now for rabid speculation; Spoiler I think the note in episode 2 is an attempt to square Will's race with Hooded Justice's support of Adolf Hitler that was casually mentioned in the book. The pills giving him super strength would make him analogous to the Golden Age Hourman, which makes him the only non-Charlton analogue in this world but I'm fine with that. His Superman origin story from episode one, combined with Hooded Justice's status as this world's first superhero, as well as his costume's inversion of KKK robes with a noose around his neck are all just so perfectly Moorish that it feels intentional in a way it definitely wasn't on his part. Also the magnet at the end came from Archie. Like, Dan's Archie. Prove me wrong Is anyone else wondering how the police got their hands on all of Dan's technology? Was some kind of deal mentioned along with their new identities in the book's last chapter that I'm blanking on...? EDIT: Oh I forgot Veidt's lost his mind and it's AMAZING I can't wait to see what insane plot he's working on
