I can’t believe that people think that an cybernetic alien race would care about the same gender bullshit that only a small minority of humans on Twitter lol

 

Would you just prefer no romance altogether?

 

I never understood this, either. Why would robots care about gender? What biological or social pressure is there for them to invest in that decision?

If there was only a choice between no romance and “everybody hooks up in the end” then I’d take no romance.

But see, unlike the vast majority who read these books, I understand there exists something called a “middle ground.” It’s a fascinating concept where, instead of taking one aspect to the extreme maximum or excising it completely, you simply find a healthy balance where you incorporate it naturally and proportionally in the story.

I liked Chromedome and Rewind at first, for example. It was subtle but obvious, and never made up as a big fuss. But eventually the drama took over to the point where we got entire issues and arcs developed to romance and friendship. It was stupid.

 

Ah, I see.

I’m fine with romance for the most part but I wish it was written more...alien. Come up with a really unique way for them to fall in love/be partners. Also go into the Cybertronian traditions. How do they view conjux endurae? Is it common or not? Why only two partners? Etc. it’s an opportunity for some interesting alien species worldbuilding instead of just following human traditions.

 

That's fine in theory, but in reality you're simply drawing the line where your own subjective interests and experience diverge from the kind of ideas that the fiction is exploring. In all these arguments, neither you or anyone else has presented a coherent explanation of where the line between 'acceptable humanisation' and your 'uncanny valley' is, other than "It's the bits I don't like". If the line is crossed at the point where they start looking and acting more like humans in robot suits than alien mechanical life forms, then the stone cold truth is that Transformers crossed that line from day fucking one. The characters have only ever had a few robot-y gimmicks thrown on top of biology and behaviour that is barely distinguishable from most hero/villain characters in most fantasy properties.

But more crucially -

- no writer has explored the 'inhumanity' of TF characters more than Roberts. He piled on the concepts, and repeatedly drew attention to differences in their society and biology. The idea that the cartoon show did a better job of this by giving Optimus Prime an energon axe for one episode or having Gears start acting cooperative because a cog was taken out of him is pretty damn wild.

They don't. It's not really treated as an issue in the comics. A load of fembots turn up and they're like "Oh, what, an extra set of pronouns? OK then." Anode and Lug change their 'gender' and literally not one other main character gives a damn or even brings it up.

So what's your problem?

 

I proudly follow my creed: TRUKK NOT MUNKEE!

 

My problem is it has no place in a TF book. My problem is that it doesn’t make sense in context.

Roberts didn’t explore their society and biology, he simply gave us “robot versions” of human concepts. Concepts nobody was new to, and that nobody was particularly eager to see explored in such an inappropriate medium.

 

Oh, you weren't interested in how a robot defecates?

 

Nope. But the Beast Wars guys might know something about it.

 

I like that they we’re written more human, more so than any incarnation of the characters, since a lot of it took place off earth, the problem is they went too far, they should be human like in a since that they aren’t emotionless robots but instead has a variety of personality’s, hopes and dreams and thoughts that’s it anything other then that is crossing the line

 

They rely heavily on ad hominem attacks. It’s their only defense.

 

*fart visible from space*

Now that’s how you write thought-provoking Transformers fiction.

 

As one of the apparent delegates of the church of super justice warriors (or whatever actual ad hominem attack that has been levelled here), i’d like to point out that i have asked directly for a pretty peaceable reconstruction of some poorly stated comments from @G1Prowl and received sweet FA in response despite stating that i’m interested in and open to comment on the matter. Rather, yall gone down to the mat trying to defend these spurious declarations (representation is a net loss to tf fiction and further Insistent poopooers of mtmte should entirely free from concerns they are maybe bigoted in their rhetoric.

If you are more worried about being called out for half baked ideas than stating half baked ideas either gain some conviction in yourself or work on yr ideas more?

Remember tho, the topic is “was the hate really so real as it appears?” And the answer is proven rather insistently and resoundingly in this thread “YES”. The major players from the aforementioned high septum of tumblr do gooders and non gender conforming scouts have all voiced (a necessary performance for this kind of thread) both their appreciations and criticism of the series and honestly that should have been that.

 

Well, then you’re wrong, I think.   I mean, in a way, I don’t feel like you’re describing me anyway, but I am a defender, I guess....

I see the same mistake ‘we’ always make (or rather, everyone in an online argument makes): we’ve again reached the point where there are now two very vocal opposites that sees the other side as one uniform camp, and that’s simply not true.

Actually, I’m a bit disappointed that, yes, in this thread I’ve seen people - who, like me, LIKE MTME/LL - have accused others of being ‘-ists’ and ‘-phobes’, even though there was absolute no reason to. But let’s remind that one person saying something (or even hundred people saying something) does not mean they’re speaking for everyone who is -for whatever reasons- also liking the same thing.

Having said that, I’ve seen more than enough outright idiotic comments from ‘dislikers’ as well. Somebody complaining a ‘defender’ is using ad hominems? Talking about calling the cattle black, sheesh. Like I said in a different thread, a lot of people are just downright petty (on both ‘sides’, that is, I’ll be honest).

I’m genuinely disappointed that basically all the minor critisms people had in the beginning of the book (critisms which I still think were highly exaggerated back then and deserved to be called out on - back then), turned out to be exactly the bits Roberts took and ran with, making them worse and worse. Not every character sounded the same in the beginning. Not every cliffhanger was a cop-out. Not everyone was romantically involved with everyone...until in the end, all of this was true, in my opinion to the detriment of the book.

However, I feel what this has done with people who already disliked the book (or have grown to dislike it over the course), is that they feel more and more justified to make outright spiteful comments. Use the most blanket of statements, the strawiest of strawman arguments (combined with some major exaggerated projection of a non-existing version of the writer. Literally, the man can’t sneeze nowadays or somebody will make a spiteful comment on how he has such an ego   ). Some people seem to operate with a ‘see? I was right all along, and now everyone will hear about it!’ mentality - but I’ll have to admit that’s simply how it comes across to me, I can’t look inside heads.

And I get it! I totally get it! Because that’s exactly the kind of pushback they got whenever they had critism back when this book was still ongoing. Let’s not be hypocrites here, whether you had a valid complaint or not, you were all lumped into the ‘gay haters’ club. I see it happening right now! (Somebody made a good point about Anode: cool design I think, but horrible character. Which some people are not ok with hearing, because they automatically think it’s an attack on her being ‘trans’. Again, not all ‘defenders’ do, but they’re there).
And that’s simply not ok. It’s probably much worse in that cesspool Tumblr, that’s bound to be full of younger, much less experienced fans, but hey - this is TFW, the online equivalent of a rowdy bar so let’s not kid ourselves here: things were said.

But still: there’s a big lack of self-awareness in some debaters. Get off your high horse. It needs to be said to everyone, on all sides, but hey - I am what you would call a MTMTE/LL liker so this is the angle I’m taking.

So that high horse goes for me as well, I guess, I’m no saint! And I bet some people have read through my rant and think I’m a big fat hypocrite myself.   And see? Even I’m so close to almost seeing everyone I disagree with as one faceless group of whatevers. And that’s not true, ‘cos I’ve had some fun discussions with some of you on toally different topics. And the real assholes I just block.  

Have a good day, am enjoying the different takes and opinions on robot gender and society.

 

It does have a place in a TF book, and it does make make sense in context.

Obviously, you disagree, but you've never once given any good reasons other than "I dont' like it". This exchange between us is a microcosm of the whole debate. I literally pointed out in the last post that you haven't presented anything to back up your assertions as to where the line is between 'acceptably human' and 'too far', and instead of even attempting to come up with something less vague and insubstantial, you've just repeated the same bad assertions.

If I stop posting about this topic - as I have tended to do for long periods, because I have many other things to be getting on with, after all - I can still guarantee that every time I look back on the site, even though the comic finished nearly a year ago, I will find someone - usually one of the same three or four board members - dredging up this same 'point', as if it's personal trauma. As if James Roberts murdered their pet.

Emparata was a 'robot version' of a human concept? Having your role in society determined by what you physically turned into? Forged versus constructed cold? Being punished by being turned into a living bomb?

I could go on. You can find tentative human parallels to some of these things, but only because there's almost no concept in the whole of sci-fi and fantasy that isn't in some way related to an aspect of human society or experience.

Plenty of people were eager to see all these and other things explored. You know that. Stop trying to pretend your lack of interest is in any way representative of some general consensus. It isn't. Your reaction seems pretty arbitrary and personal in a way that avoids all justification, in the same way as someone who doesn't like pickled onions or cats.

It's fine to not like pickled onions, or cats, or a particular style of Transformers comic, but maybe accept that simply expressing this dislike again and again in a number of colourful ways is not 'pointing out flaws'.

 

Again, you’re argument simply boils down to “critics are ists and phobes”. That’s not meant to further the discussion but shut it down. The problem you’re running into is that people are on to that tactic. Sticks and stones. The ist and phobe labels have been thrown around so much that it doesn’t mean anything anymore. It just reveals who wants to have a discussion and who doesn’t.

 

You see, I did. Several times. This is exactly why I have you on ignore, the only reason I clicked you in was because I was pissed that the website bumps the thread in my alerts when ignored content is added.

Let me rehash: specific human representation in an alien species that has no precedent for an analogous (sp?) trait is bad writing, full stop. The issue is the excessive overhumanization which takes away from the nature of the book, which is increased exponentially with the hamfisted representation. SEVERAL posters have pointed that out, you simply ignore them because rhetoric. Why would people continue to engage you?

Yay, you found TF representations of tribal mutilations, caste systems, racism, and the indentured suicide bomers we saw in the war. Novel concepts.


Now look at that image of Roller sucking down a juice box with a smiley face on it, loaded with speed. That's just one incredibly hamfisted overhumanization in a sea of examples. I'd line by line, but that means rereading the series and I'd personally rather castrate myself with a broken plastic spoon than put myself through that again. Although that WOULD increase my virtue signalling points if I did reread it...

 

Clearly, pluto or I could copy-paste a page from a 1970s Soviet car ownership manual onto this thread, and you would still respond with "Wah you called me a bigot".

 

The main problem here is how much this series gets up it's own arse and deflecting any flaws with "satire" and "meta commentary". It's very frustrating and annoying.

 

I have pointed out in the last two posts to Split Lip - and I'll point it out again here - that you have not substantiated where the line is crossed into 'excessive overhumanisation'. You cannot explain this concept. What is 'excessive'? Why aren't the original depictions in the Sunbow cartoon already 'excessive'? It's entirely down to your own personal sense of it, which you don't seem willing to interrogate.

Please name any concept in any property which isn't vaguely related to human issues in exactly the same way. Roberts did what every sci-fi author has done - expand the possibilities outward. At the core of Transformers, there's only one single substantial idea, which is that they can change shape. But the practical implications of this, in most continuities, are exactly the same as simply owning and riding in vehicles. It's not remotely 'inhuman', except when you have a writer like Roberts who explores how it impacts on societal structure and biology.

In the cartoon, the characters clench their fists in anger, laugh, stroke their chins, ride on waterskis, point at things, clutch their heads when in pain, lie on a slab to receive medical attention, borrow and strap on each other's jetpacks, use parachutes, sit in chairs, dance, leapfrog over one another, throw punches ... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

How is a juice box any more 'excessively human' than any of these examples? It isn't, is it?