No they definitely understand the R2. I see your side but I am positive Rey, Anakin and Luke understanding binary is canon. I would defer to @flamepanther though.

Yeah, I was mostly joking. I do think some of TLJ folks are out, out. Like I don’t see anyway at least 6 or 7 people in this thread come back regardless of what happens in IX. I could name them in 5 secs and that is not a criticism of them it’s just an observation.

 

Rey seems to. Anakin probably does. Luke appears not to. In ANH, Luke doesn't appear to understand what R2 is saying or doing until 3PO interprets for him. In ESB they have a coherent, two-way conversation, but R2 is communicating via text on Luke's screen inside the X-Wing.

 

Wookiepedia says he learned it from his time together with R2. I assumed the X-Wing function was automatic for all pilots and Luke didn’t necessarily need it. Luke seems to clearly understand R2 on Degobah.

 

Okay so honestly I never really got hung up on this map. What I understand happening here is:

There was a Map with all the Jedi Temples, only discernibly different in that it held those locations.

Leia assumes / knew Luke went to the First Jedi Temple. Didn’t necessarily know it was on Ahch-To hence needing that map.

Lor San Tekka had part of the map and R2 had part of the map. They needed both parts to find the location of the First Temple.

It really doesn’t seem crazy to me. I am confused why it’s even a thing. If Palpatine erased the location to obscure it more, okay? Is that something Palpatine would do? Withhold Force related info? Sure. Is it necessary to follow the Map story? No, interesting embellishment but hardly essential. If R2 found it okay? Who cares. I assumed Luke or someone (Lor San Tekka) split the map to protect Luke’s location. Either way I really don’t see a lot of issues around it.

 

Except they don't need "both parts". Leia already had several parts. The parts that don't give the location of the first temple (which is on Ach-To) aren't needed or even really useful. They're able to view the incomplete map pieces, since we saw them projected as a hologram and this becomes another plot point in itself (Kylo: "she's seen the map!"). Since we know they can do that, and since the Resistance can tell whether the parts of the map they have contain the needed information, and the ability to do both are necessary plot points, we have to assume someone could've checked Tekka's map beforehand. Simple logic.

Also, R2 had the whole map. He had it the whole time. It's implied in the film. It's confirmed in the book. If we have to make up our own excuses for why R2 couldn't provide the info sooner, then the film's logic has already failed.

The map is the central plot point that moves the entire story along, so it's kinda important to understanding what's going on (something the movie isn't so good at in general).

EDIT: All of that said, it probably wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't the only part of the plot that wasn't a big Mystery Box.

 

I'll buy that. The conversations on Degobah are one-sided enough that it could co either way (I sound the same way talking to my cat, for example). There's not really enough between Luke and R2 in RotJ to say conclusively. But if the books did something with Luke understanding Binary, it wouldn't contradict what we see.

 

You lost me a bit on the first part with Leia. What I understand you saying is because R2 had the whole map, initially, he therefore “had” the map. I still really don’t understand why that’s an issue. R2 had the important piece, he could have purged the rest of the map from his system to protect Luke. It makes sense that the smaller part of the map needed to be integrated into the larger map and neither was entirely useful without the other. There are plenty of logical ways that works. In terms of R2 being in low-power mode well if that’s not the Force I don’t know what is.
None of this even approaches the exhaust-port on a Deathstar...

 

That’s always been one of my biggest problems with the film even when I was still trying to convince myself it was good. The final act of the movie just completely forgets about trying to find Luke Skywalker and introduces Starkiller Base without any buildup or foreshadowing. You’re right. Suddenly the macguffin we thought were following was rendered useless for about 30 to 40 minutes of screen time, and its resolved suddenly at the end with no explanation or anyone even questioning why R2 would awake now of all times. I’ve always thought the story would have been a lot tighter if they omitted Death Star 3 and kept the story focused on finding Luke with a smaller scale conflict at the end. It would have been better if The First Order had got the information they needed out of Rey and started attacking the benevolent population of Ach To in order to draw Luke out. Or they could have done the takeover of the First Order first and then initiate the search for Luke in the sequel. As it stands currently, it plays out like Indiana Jones looking for the Ark of the Covenant for an hour and a half and then dropping everything to go destroy a Nazi death ray that he just found out about before someone just tells him where the Ark is in the last five minutes of the movie.

 

Didn't Poe only get the map at the very beginning of the movie, and R2 was deactivated the whole time because Luke was missing? (hence why when BB-8 showed the map it was no use, as it was just the piece with no context. R2 had the rest with the hole but was asleep)

Though narratively speaking, splitting the map in two really served no purpose, it wasn't a logical hole at all.

Plenty of characters can understand droid speak right away. She's also a scrapper, making daily visits to a scrapyard with many droids. It'd be weird if she couldn't understand BB-8.

This I agree with, whole-heartedly. But one could say that without an immediate threat the movie may have lacked tension and urgency, but what you describe sounds like a more interesting movie.

But again, I'm not really talking just about the overall story quality (because TFA has other things I really don't like) when I compare them, I mean that TFA never did anything so stupid it made the whole film fall about like why the FO is so woefully incompetent they don't just hyperspeed jump ahead of the Resistance, or why all those ships in that ridiculous slow-speed chase are the same top speed, or why with only one ship tracking them they don't split up, or use the small ship Finn and the girl used to go on their pointless adventure (which was literally, nor figuratively, literally pointless) to evacuate the cruisers over time.

Like TLJ literally make no logical sense. TFA is just generic and uncreative.

 

I agree with this. I have always disliked Starkiller base as it’s reductive. It’s just simply solves the problem of making the FO dominant in the fastest and most SW / nostalgic way possible. I was a much bigger fan of TLJ than TFA. That being said I also find nothing offensive about TFA or Starkiller there have been things in every single movie that I fundamentally don’t enjoy but that’s pretty much always been the case for me.

 

When Rey shows up with "The Map" and is told that it's actually only a part of the map, Leia explains that actually they're looking for the location of the first Jedi temple, since that's where she thinks Luke went. She explains that they already have most of the map, but it's missing the information on the first temple. There are just a couple of pieces still missing, and they're hoping the piece Rey and BB-8 got from Tekka is the one that has the location. So they project the incomplete map as a big hologram, and they add Rey's piece, and... aw, it's not the one. Remember?

The writers were in sort of a bind here. They need Rey's piece of the map to be insufficient so that they can postpone finding Luke and do Starkiller Base instead. At the same time, they need the map pieces to be viewable as-is, so that they can give Kylo an excuse to go after Rey instead of continuing to focus on the map itself. She has to have seen the map so that Kylo can promise to extract it from her memory. They accomplish this by saying there are two parts missing, and that Rey's is not the one they need. This necessarily implies that the other piece would have been sufficient without the one Rey actually had. If they needed both missing pieces to find Luke, they would know before adding Rey's piece that it wouldn't be enough, no matter which of the two it was. They also wouldn't have needed to project the incomplete map, and then that whole thing with Kylo wouldn't work. Obviously, this means the Resistance also can tell whether the parts they have contain the information they need.

With me so far? We know:
-They already have most of the map.
-The other missing piece would've done the job without Rey's piece, even if it didn't have enough context by itself (per your suggestion below).
-The pieces are viewable without having the whole map.

Therefore, someone should've been able to check Lor San Tekka's map before having him risk his life to deliver it.

Even if R2 only had the one small piece, the Resistance already had enough of the larger map, per above. But canonically he didn't have just one piece, not just the whole map, but the entire Imperial archive in his databanks at the time of the movie.

Well they aren't in the film, and the books probably contradict them, but feel free to elaborate.

Heh. Funny you should say that. Canonically (amazing how much the film doesn't explain...), low power mode happens becuase R2 is depressed that he'll never see Luke again. Canonically, it ends because BB-8 asks him about the map. That's it, rolls up and just asks him. And the thought of finding Luke perks him right up... except that it takes exactly the length of the Starkiller Base mission for him to do it, because that's how it was convenient for the writers. This raises a lot of questions. It's not like the Resistance weren't asking about getting the map and finding Luke--they say in the movie that they think he has the map and they've been trying to get it from him. The thought of finding Luke didn't wake him up then? Not for Leia? Not even for 3PO? Why BB-8? And if he was protecting Luke before, then WTF suddenly happened to that?

 

I'll take "unexplained" over "showing me beat-for-beat how stupid it is" any day.

It's "unexplained" why the Resistance suddenly lacks Y-wings to more effectively bomb the Juggernaut. It's fucking stupid beyond reason that they'd have these slow, gigantic bombers and lock them in a "tight formation" to be an even easier target to destroy, and that the bombers use a space-equivalent of carpet bombing to hit targets instead of guided projectiles. (and are too slow and stupid to escape the wake of their own blasts) It's "unexplained" why the FO only brings a single Juggernaut and doesn't call for more of these insanely devastating ships once its destroyed. It's fucking stupid and illogical that they'd target the base on the surface when they have clear line of sight to the idling Resistance fleet, of which Juggernauts are apparently renowned killers of.

Just because something is unexplained doesn't mean it's an out-and-out mistake or leap of logic. Great movies are built on "unexplained" happenings. But there's withholding information due to lack of information and going into detail to show how dumb and implausible a situation is, where the movie offers its own solutions to problems and then ignores them. I'm not a picky person, it doesn't take much to impress me, just don't insult my intelligence with blatant stupidity.

 

Honestly I find your analysis hilarious within the SW universe. If you feel so strongly about small bits of TLJ then why don’t you turn your analysis against the entire franchise? I’ve done this so many times before...but fuck it let’s do it again because TLJ was so blatantly stupid. From the top and in no particular order.

1) Thermal Exhaust-Port, the magic button that destroys Deathstars. Dumb as fucking hell. You think bombers are bad? How about building a battle-station the size of a planet that explodes from one shot.

2) Droid Control ships. Anakin Skywalker a poor fucking slave on a shithole backwater planet can build a sentient protocol-droid BUT the Separatists have an entire Droid Army controlled by ONE ship, ONE ship you knock-out the ship the whole army falls to pieces. Blatant stupidity and frankly bad writing.

3) George Lucas was a bad writer, his get out of jail card was every major set-piece had a kill-switch. Thermal Exhaust-Ports, Droid control ships, lazy weak writing

4) Speaking of Kill-switches, Palps. You knock-out Palpatine and the entire Empire folds like a fucking lawn chair. Really you have a problem with the FO taking over the galaxy but killing Palpatine shuts the whole organization down? No admirals, no regional governors grab the reigns? Nope it’s the Lucas kill-switch take care of one thing and EVERYTHING is magically resolved.

5) Jesus Christ the ESB, walking in space inside worms with no spacesuits or pressure gear what-so-ever. I mean how exactly do space worms gets the calorie intake in an asteroid field? Blatant stupidity.

6) Ewoks. I would say Ewoks and leave it there but let’s just remember Ewoks defeat a LEGION of Palpatine’s BEST troops. For fucksake with STONE AGE weapons.

7) Sorry my bad forgot another killswitch although I’m a little unfair here.... Jabba’s sailbarge. Kill Jabba, kill Boba Fett everyone goes in the Sarlac pit bingo, bango, boom problem resolved every bad guy killed in one operation, clever

8) Atrocious writer..... the wait for it SECOND Deathstar. What screams I’m fucking completely out of ideas like the Deathstar II. Really that’s the best he could come up with another Deathstar. I mean surely that doesn’t have kill-switch built into it so big you can fly the Millennium Falcon into to it? Right?

9) Creation of the Clone Army. Republic orders a Clone Army be built. No one questions it. Weird and convenient thinks Yoda. Jedi Sifo-Dyas? Explanation? Nope? I probably need some book of comic or cartoon to explain that! Bullshit I shouldn’t have to do that to understand what’s happening in the movie..... outrage! Fuck Disney!

10) The Prequel Republic has NO army. What kind of namby-pamby bullshit am I supposed to believe that a Galactic Republic has existed for 1,000s of years and has no army, just gets by with a few Jedi. Okay George, kumbaya.

11) The Republic presumably watches the Separatists build a massive Droid Army but no response.

12) The Clone Army was fucking pointless the Jedi were fucked on Geonosis. Palpatine didn’t need a Clone Army built, he could have crushed the Jedi on Geonosis and then just taken over the Republic because they had NO army. What a bunch of convoluted bullshit, Palps overcomplicated a simple plan.

13) Dooku. Jedi worry about Anakin and every other Jedi becoming corrupt and falling to the Darkside. But Dooku? Nah fine just running a Separatist movement and being a Count sure everything is on the up and up.

14) Dooku how did he rise to power and build a massive Separatist Movement and galaxy crushing army on the DL, Jedi missed it they were too busy worrying about Anakin and ignoring the Clone Army being built. All of it happened off-screen, I see am I supposed to read a book or something. Fuck Disney

15) Lucas ruined SW by making the Universe SMALLER. Anakin built C-3P0! Are you fucking kidding me? Anakin built C-3P0. Giant fucking universe but that’s, sure fine.

16) Hey Old Ben Kenobi? Yeah you. You member these droids? You know these two dipshits you spent half your life with? No? Unforced error Lucas, unforced error.

17) Baby Anakin is a great pilot. Spinning is a good trick.

18) Small world Yoda knew Chewbacca! What crazy I know Yoda knew Chewbacca, R2 was Anakin’s and Anakin built C-3P0. It’s a small world after all, It’s a small after all. Super Cute! Great job George!

19) JarJar Binks

Well this was fun.

 

Wow destroy the whole saga to defend TLJ..Now thats some new shit right there. Do you like any other movie in the SAGA?

 

I know. It's almost as if there are people that have legitimate problems with the film. Oh, no.

Seriously, what makes TLJ so god damn special?

 

I LOVE the franchise. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect. I am just saying be intellectually honest. If you are going to nitpick everything about TLJ at least do the same to the rest of the films.

You are welcome to have legitimate problems with TLJ but let’s not pretend the other stuff never happened. Are the things I mentioned not legitimate problems? What makes TLJ deserving of so much more nitpicking than any other SW film. I saw the Phantom Menace in the theater 3 times and ANH as well. So I am hardly new to this.

 

Honestly Tattoo, I kind of envy you. I wish I could find 5 min's of TLJ I could say I enjoy.

 

People harp on the bombers, but the main technical thing that bugs me in TLJ is how they handled cloaking technology. First it was DJ's ship. That was a bit contrived, but I guess they established that he's good with hacking and whatnot. I don't know how a hacker cloaks a ship without modifying it first (it would probably need to have some sort of stealth panels on the outside), but I can sort of excuse that with "Star Wars logic". I probably wouldn't have questioned it if cloaking didn't come up in a more convoluted way later.

But I really didn't like how the Resistance shuttles could cloak. If they had that tech, there's a million things they could have done to evade the First Order. And it probably should have come up in Force Awakens. And then they gave the First Order de-cloaking technology, which kind of negates cloaking technology in the first place. Why not just constantly run a de-cloaking scan? That aspect just felt like "make it up as you go" storytelling to me. It felt like the screenwriter backed themselves into a corner with convoluted tech, and just wrote whatever came to mind to get out of it. I get the narrative purpose (to explain why the First Order couldn't initially detect the shuttles), but I'm really surprised that aspect wasn't re-worked for the final draft. They could have just said the shuttles were too small to detect without knowing the general location. Once DJ gives the First Order the location, then they could detect them.

 

Believe me I WISH that was the case too. It would be great if IX could heal the fandom but I have zero hope of that. Things are probably too broken to fix at this point. Hopefully you guys can all still enjoy the original stuff and put TLJ out of your mind. Honestly as much as I genuinely enjoy TLJ, I wish it never happened cause the state of the fandom just sucks and it wasn’t worth it for this.