Holy shit indeed.

The standout appears to be the Mandarin question.

Spoiler

We might be seeing him in Shang-Chi!!!

 

I don't approves that Gamora and Black Widow stay dead.

 

The Russo Brothers Open Up About Gamora’s Avengers: Endgame Fate
Her fate is ambiguous, and to be explored in GOTG 3, but everyone probably guessed that.

 

Could had happen miracle or something similar.

 

Exactly!

 

Were there not enough consequences otherwise without killing the female leads of both their franchises?

 

There needs to be consequences but they should be somehow related to character and theme and not just kind of there? They felt random and not in the No Country for Old Men/Serenity "Life is cruel and random" way just in the sense that they were sudden and didn't feel like the culmination of anything they were going through.

Iron Man's was a culmination however... Of all the character work from 2008 to 2012. He could have literally had that exact same ending 7 years ago and it would have meant the exact same thing, which means that the seven years of stories featuring all his major life events happening off screen to an almost comical degree in between were pointless.

The MCU does tone and surface level stuff very very well. Drama not so much

 

I'm still not sure what I'd do differently with Black Widow's ending, but to merge my confusion with an idea from someone I talked with; sure would have been nice if someone other than Natasha had acknowledged that they were her family. Cap almost had it but it could maybe be taken the other way that he doesn't actually say it.

Agree with the Gamora stuff you said. Would be a lot worse if Gunn was still fired but still skeptical.

 

I can only see Vision's coming back being justified since he is a robot and Shuri was working on a way of separate "him" from the mind stone anyway in Infinity War. Other than that, I totally agree with you.

 

She didn't have to really say it though imo. It was very clear, at least to me, how she evolved from a stern, scary, badass, Touch-me-again-and-ill-break-your-fucking-wrist-type Government Agent to the quit selflessly caring "Mother Hen" of the group who ALWAYS, from the very beginning, made sure the mission was completed. And that is why, imo, her death is the most impactful emotionally in the film (yes even more so then Tony heart wrenching death) and dare I say it the series. but again this is all IMO. Personally, I think her film should take place during the cold war and be about her encounter with the Winter Soldier as hinted at in Winter Soldier.

As for Gamora, she may be the same biologically but she is not the same character-development-wise, so to me her death still has impact.

 

I'm not saying she had to. I understand her character in that film. It is The Avengers standing in a circle going "oh I guess she doesn't have any family" after she has died for her family that I'm considering could have been different.

Again, in terms of what I actually want, dunno. But in terms of what I'm saying right now, Black Widow does nothing different in any of the films she is in but Captain America doesn't go "welp no one to mourn her then make sure to invite Drax the Destroyer to Tony's funeral" after.

I do agree with some of the stuff you are saying. There is development. But Tony's legacy is acknowledged perfectly (biased as hell towards him but the smallest details were devastating me), Cap's will be continued, and the Avengers dropped Black Widow's, not quite aware they were carrying it. Does that ending vs legacy distinction work? I guess that is the main point, just took some rambling to find it. Even if Black Widow's ending works, she could have a better legacy. They send Thor off better and we should see him again.

And yeah the post contains exaggerations, I'm overcompensating for what must have been vague wording in my last post (and most posts when I start arguing for something I didn't intend to).

Is the Gamora thing replying to me too? That doesn't contradict anything I (or Megatron) said. Different topic, but not actually contradicting that Gamora is a different person from Gamora. Maybe I just need to wait for this migraine to die down before I hit post but here I go!

 

Very beautify put, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree about Widow. I personally think focusing on the reaction to Tony's death over Nat's was justified filmmaking-wise because Downey has been there since the beginning and story wise because of the nature of Nat's unusual death (e.i. Where's her body?, How do we get to it?, etc.), thus I think Avengers & co. are still trying comprehend what EXACTLY happened to Widow on Volmirr whereas Tony very obviously had the life taken out of his body. I'm not saying she is still alive but she had very unusual circumstances to her death. ...ooooorrrr maybe Disney and Marvel didn't want to focus on her death so as to not make it look like they were championing suicide...that too.

Furthermore, I believe a truly close family unit is one that doesn't need to constantly boast that they are a family but instead displays such through their actions, attitude, and the positive energy the exude to others which is why the Avengers work so much better in that area than, say, the Fast & Furious cast.

Sorry if I got a little deep.

As for Gamora, I apologize if misinterpreted what you two where trying to say. I'm glad we agree on her at least. lol

Edit: Hope you get better from the Migrain. Go away Migrain! No one likes you!!

 

Cannot agree more

 

Sounds good. I definitely agree Tony/Downey fully deserved the focus he got, wish Nat had more without taking away from his, but we seem to understand each other now so cool. Thanks for the anti-migraine wishes.

EDIT: Trying to figure out if I gave the wrong impression with Tony somewhere. Doesn't really matter because we're talking more about others but I think when I said biased in the last post that was positively biased. I think that could have been read the opposite way cuz I left a word out. I got into the MCU because of Iron Man and he'll never stop being my favourite. I actually enjoyed Iron Man 3, I don't collect Marvel Comics but I collect Iron Man comics, this goes on for a few more minutes...

Either that or it was the Drax thing which yeah, making a sarcastic comment about a scene I loved which isn't really something I can fix if I want to keep the sarcastic comment. Which I do.

 

Could have been different if Marvel had the X-men/FF rights before.

 

Gamora is not back. That person is not Gamora. And it doesn't matter how many new female characters they replace Natasha with. For one thing, representation isn't a scoreboard. For another, we may not see Wasp for another 6 years if what they're saying about putting the Avengers on hiatus for Phase 4 is true. Marvel wants to have their cake and eat it too, having scenes with all the female characters in a big group shot but not actually giving them more than a few lines or anything important to actually do (Mantis' only line in Endgame is advocating for a knife fight between Thor and Star Lord). The good news is, this isn't a problem unique to the MCU; almost every good female character in Marvel is either beholden to the backstory of a male counterpart (Carol Danvers, She-Hulk, etc) or they're an X-Man (which means they're beholden to the backstory of at least four male counterparts). Now that the X-Men are entering the MCU and the groundwork for all those male characters is laid down, maybe there will be a change.