Avengers (4): Endgame - Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by eagc7, Apr 22, 2018.

  1. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    Do people really need everything spelled out for them?

    Bucky “knew” because he knows Steve, and the moment Hulk said he missed his target Bucky deduced what had really happened, and because Bucky knows Steve he just had to look around for an old guy because he knew Cap wouldn’t leave them hanging.

    The scene is blatant and clear, there’s no need to go sniffing around, you’re just spoiling a perfect moment by overthinking it.
     
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  2. Terrorpin

    Terrorpin Well-Known Member

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    My theory is that the putting back of the stones didn't need to happen.

    If you use the Ancient One's example with the line, imagine that that line is a living organism. If the limb is reattached after being severed, it should be ok. At least that's what we're led to believe. But that dark branch-off, I don't think it continues on at all. I think it dies. Think about the comics from a couple of years ago, where whole universes just ceased to exist. I think once the timestream realizes the branch-off is dead, it just... ceases to be. It no longer supports any life, matter, space, or even time. It just... runs out.

    The avengers wanted to stop this because they thought that the past dying meant the present and future die with it. In reality, the past is preserved basically through the universal equivilent of muscle memory. Because it happened, it happened. Essentially. Things like the Thanos issues AREN'T an issue because he left marks all over the universe proving his existence. And for the universe, that is enough. Animals aren't the only things with survival instincts. ;) 

    This is all just my theory, mind you. It's impossible to explain away a paradox. That's why it's called a paradox. But it is fun to chew on.
     
  3. smkspy

    smkspy Remember true fans

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    We should all remember your statement when we question a plot point.
     
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  4. Cliffjumper

    Cliffjumper Least insane TF fan

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    Apparently the movie is coming out on blu ray august 20th
     
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  5. Verno

    Verno Beast Wars Collector

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    In IW, Doctor Strange looked into the future before the fight with Thanos on Titan. He thus should have seen their fight not go to plan on Titan and would know how to account for it.

    Instead of trying to get the Gauntlet off Thanos' hand, open a portal, stick his arm through it, then close the portal, chopping it off.
     
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  6. Omegashark18

    Omegashark18 Combaticon turned Autobot

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    Then there’s no more movie.
     
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  7. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    But how he got there isn't the important part of that scene. It's that it happened at all that's important.

    Correct, but the Time Stone is the only one where that plan could have gone off without a hitch, since the Ancient One's whole thing was knowing the future but keeping it a secret. All of the others either had small deviations (which weren't what AO was worried about anyway) or massive irreparable deviations that nonetheless were probably best left in place. Cap's alternate timeline, for example, had no HYDRA takeover of SHIELD, and when he went home the world had a second Captain America to protect it. The 2014 timeline no longer has a Thanos in it, which makes the lives of the would-be Guardians of the Galaxy much more sad, but isn't much of a negative otherwise.*

    I certainly couldn't pick one leading into the movie. There are pros and cons to each. Bucky has the powerset but a darker personality (though that in itself isn't a negative, in fact it could have been interesting to see how Bucky decides to represent Cap's Legacy). Sam more closely embodies the stuff Steve stands for (I can't help but wonder if he didn't start that support group in Sam's memory).

    *The only tricky situation is Ego. If the Guardians never form because they never fight Ronan, then the universe is in the clear. If it's just Quill, Rocket, and Groot then honestly Ronan killing them and wiping out Xandar is the best case scenario, because if they defeat him the way they originally did then Ego will find Peter and this time there won't be enough people to take him down.
     
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  8. Chopperface

    Chopperface Chadwick Forever

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    It’s hearing stuff like this that makes me realize how dumb and unoriginal I am because I would never have been able to come up with a “new version” of time travel :lol  I think the time travel here was brilliant, but guys, don’t ever let me direct an MCU movie!
     
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  9. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to be argumentative but I really don’t see any ambiguity in there

    In the back to the future situation, doc brown sent/left the message for Marty because even in the best of circumstances there was no imaginable way Doc could imagine living till it was the 1980s again (from his perspective)

    Old Cap had every reason to believe he would still be alive until the events of Endgame happened again (from old Steve’s perspective) so there was no reason to leave a message for anyone
     
  10. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Are you stating that as a fact or as a theory?

    If you believe it’s a fact can you tell me how you came to that conclusion?

    But the idea of bringing the stones back to where they got them would mean that those deviated timelines never happened anyway
     
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  11. MECHADOOM

    MECHADOOM I'm Doombot and I know it

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    So, I don't know if this has been brought up already, or if I should spoiler tag it, so I guess I should.
    Smart Hulk rubbing a stubble beard, and it growing in partially grey/grey streaks in his hair at his temples, has me wondering if they're working towards a Maestro storyline.
     
  12. Bumblebee2000

    Bumblebee2000 Well-Known Member

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    The 2014 one has to happen for Endgame to happen.
    If Thanos remains in 2014, how does Endgame end. You could bullshit a "from 2023's POV Thanos travelled in time without him ever actually doing it in 2014" which doesn't necessarily contradict the rules of the film, but it also complicates and adds assumptions to those rules. Um, I barely know what I mean by that but...

    my understanding is the stones aren't causing branching timelines, changes are causing branchig timelines and 6/8 changes are stones. So the film kinda simplifies it to stones stop changes, but they don't actually have anything to do with Thanos and Loki. They never planned to change anything but the stones anyway, so they don't explain it like they do the stones. Just with the time stone, the Earth is no longer protected from Dormammu and whatever else they use it for. There probably will be repercussions from the Loki thing, but smaller ones than the death of everything, and ones I'm looking forward to streaming some point in the future.

    Maybe I'm wrong, it doesn't appear to be a minority that think all branches are killed by returning the stones. What the Loki show is about might give the answer, though I doubt we will see the Thanos universe again.
    There might still be Tony and Nat there and if nothing else the Guardians would be a sadder film.
    Not sure where the no Hydra thing comes from though.
     
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  13. Megatron118

    Megatron118 Excelsior! Moderator

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    That baffles me too. Nobody says “I’ll miss you” if you’ll only be gone for 5 seconds. Bucky clearly knew. So all those people online saying Steve abandoned his best friend or whatever have a drastically twisted view in my eyes
     
  14. rapid_fire

    rapid_fire Banned

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    Time travel bothers people, but a giant green guy, magic, indestructible metals, levitation, and 21 movies of other impossible stuff is ok? Lol
     
  15. MatrixOfWumbo

    MatrixOfWumbo I see you

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    It's easy. Steve knows that Arnim Zola secretly rebuilt HYDRA from inside SHIELD. His wife is a founding member of SHIELD, and he has traveled back to the time when it was still in its infancy. So why would he not immediately storm into Zola's lab and expose the whole thing 70 years early?

    There will ways be a deviation even if they return the stones because they traveled there in the first place, which is (presumably) something that didn't happen in the main timeline. Again, for all we know the Ancient One could have been visited by a Hulk from an entirely different dimension during the main timeline's Battle of New York, but she would never have told anyone.
     
  16. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn’t
    as they explained, changing the past had no effect on the present

    And it’s not the stones that created the branches them self’s, but When you travel to the past you end up creating a new “branch” from the tree of time...So If the they go back and it off the branch at an earlier time....it doesn’t change that those events happened

    Try to take the “tree analogy” as literal and not metaphoric.....let’s say you there’s a tree on your property.....and there’s a branch hitting your house....., if you cut it off at the starting point you still have the branch you cut off on the ground

    The time theory they worked the same way, no grandfather paradox can exists
    .
    At least that’s how I’m reading it Based on their theory

    Doesn’t mean that they’re right though
    That’s assuming he would do something to alter how history unfolded

    And I don’t think he would do that

    But if you think he would that’s your opinion
    And if they return the stones to practically the same moment they were taken, then those deviations really wouldn’t amount to much if anything at all

    But yeah we can’t be sure of anything
     
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  17. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree that Bucky clearly knew anything

    There was always a possibility that the plan wasn’t going to work, not to mention that he could’ve just been saying that as a small joke
     
  18. Bumblebee2000

    Bumblebee2000 Well-Known Member

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    I think Bucky knew, but not necessarily because Steve told him and it is definitely a fan-speculation grey area. In my mind, he doesn't go over to Steve because he knows.
    Ok I guess Endgame could still happen if the Avengers restored 2014, but I don't think they did restore it. Other than that I think we are saying the same thing about branches. Neither of us think it is the stones causing it but travelling to the past. No grandfather paradoxes.

    I'm kinda figuring this out as I'm writing it down at this point, but no grandfather paradoxes means no getting rid of Thanos all together. They can prevent it, but it still happens to one version of the timeline. What?

    Back to the Future would allow them to swap Nebula to another team and maaybe not alert Thanos, or at least not give him the advantage. But this isn't BTTF so Thanos is inevitable. That BTTF thing was mainly for my benefit. Until someone tells me this is wrong I think I've got it.

    The rules both do and don't allow Thanos to be cut off depending which way you look at it, no wonder I was (still am?) confused. They could restore it without affecting themselves, if it was possible to restore it without just causing another branch.
     
  19. Rusty24

    Rusty24 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve thought a lot about the time travel in this movie, and I think I actually understand it, but it’s really hard to explain without a drawing (and maybe even a 3D one at that if you really let me go). Essentially they’re traveling to parallel timelines that are largely the same up until a certain point. Think of two halves of a “Y” shape. You have an infinite number of timelines running parallel to each other that branch off from each other at different points. Essentially, they’d be traveling to these other timelines before the branch occurs that takes that universe in a different direction than the one we know. To illustrate it, they’re going from the diagonal tip of one “half-Y” to the straight line portion of the other before it goes off in the opposite direction. That’s why they can’t change their past. They’re just changing another timeline’s future.
     
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  20. Megatron118

    Megatron118 Excelsior! Moderator

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    I do not think that was said as a joke in the slightest but okay. To each their own