Bays 07 movie does have cultural worth. A lot of film makers, Knight included has copied his cinematography. And they continue to do so. Michael Bay was Spielberg’s AD, he learned from the best.

You failed to see the point. I’m not comparing transformers to scientific research. I’m saying, like Copernicus, when someone (despite the matter at heart) disagrees with the majority, the majority brands them as delusional.

 

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. . .Yes, Bay's cinematography may have been possibly copied by Knight (Sources???). . .Especially given the fact that Bay and Lorenzo were producers on Bumblebee, which was moreso the reason for that (I bet) than Travis' own preferences. . .

Copying cinematography is not exclusive to that example. . .The same can be said about several other films, especially films by Georges Melies, Akira Kurosawa, Martin Scorsese, Federico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, and notably Gregg Toland's and Orson Welles' work on Citizen Kane. But, what does Citizen Kane (and the work of those aforementioned names) have that the bayverse films sorely lack? Memorable characterization, plotting, writing, awesome editing, conflict, and several other things that make it so, in addition to the awesome cinematography. Bay may have even possibly copied some of Toland's camera work, as many directors have.

In regards to Copernicus, he was up against way higher stakes than Bay was, and any opposition he faced was from the powers-that-be: one of those stakes at that time I'm sure would have been brutal torture and execution, as well as making a King walk barefoot in freezing snow to meet with a representative of said powers to atone for being punished by said powers. Those who oppose the bayverse aren't the powers-that-be in the slightest, and contrary to popular belief, Bay didn't have to take that road to Canossa. . .Even when TLK bombed, I bet he was still tossing back some fine wine and cruising around in his exotic car collection . . .

Some Sources:
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Citizen-Kane-change-how-we-make-movies;

20 inspired visual moments in Citizen Kane;

Cinematography and Citizen Kane

https://twistedladdermovies.wordpress.com/2004/05/07/cinematography-of-citizen-kane/[url]

 

Well I appreciate your respectful response even though we disagree on some parts!

I loved Shatter and Dropkick. I thought I would hate them from the trailers due to their bayverse-esque designs, but after seeing how great their characters were written I started to love how they looked. Writing is so important!

 

I feel the same; however, after seeing repeated Decepticon deaths for the past 10 years, I wanted them to actually live. After getting a thorough beatdown from Bumblebee, I would have had them retreat to Cybertron, threatening to bring back a can of Decepticon whoopass to finish their plans. That way, we already have some tension going into the next film, especially giving the Earth-bound Autobot refugees a sizable threat to deal with.

 

Most people just resorted to personal attacks. You on the other hand backed up your words with with an explanation that makes sense even we didn’t agree on everything

They coulda been great reoccurring villains for the BB movie series. Although, I thought the way Dropkick met his end was awesome.

 

You know, if we apply a similar standard as people due to Bay Prime, Dropkick's death would be murder. Bee had him tied up in a chain, he should have been able to capture him without killing him.
The same may be said of Shatter. Shouldn't Bee have tried to save her instead of holding her so she died? I remember the animated heroes when i was a kid saving the bad guys if their lives were in danger after a fight...

 

No one is saying that Prime shouldn't kill anyone. It's how he killed Cons in the Bayverse that pushed it over the edge.

 

and the shit he says when he kills them

 

And my post was about how Bumblebee killed Shatter and Dropkick. In both cases he didn't have to, he could have taken them prisoner. Rather, he went over the edge by killing them.

Bumblebee wasn't able to talk, otherwise he might have said some pretty nasty stuff before murdering Shatter and Dropkick.

 

How would a single robot like Bumblebee be able to keep them as prisoners? I don't even know how that scene would play out. Bumblebee taking Dropkick as a prisoner and then what about Shatter? While Bumblebee is fighting Shatter, Dropkick will escape and vice versa.

 

Why would Dropkick escape when Bee has him wrapped up in a chain? If he was able to kill him did easily with a pull he certainly could have made him immobile without killing him.

 

And then he would have escaped. They're not dumb robots—they're intelligent beings with extensive expertise in various fields. If he magically stayed put in those chains for the duration of Bee's fight with Shatter, I would seriously question the intelligence of these Cons (which wouldn't make sense as he effortlessly engineered an entire world-wide network but couldn't escape from simple chains).

 

I'm saying Bee could have damaged him enough that he would have been unable to move. Then he wouldn't have been able to escape.

 

I mean sure, I guess they could have done that, though, I see no reason how that would add anything to the story. I'm not sure what added benefit Bumblebee would receive, especially considering the Autobots are rebels in this story, not a police force.

 

As interesting as the idea of the Autobots taking the Decepticons prisoner is, there are no facilities currently viable for such a thing. Mind it could have been a tie in for Sector 7

 

I fail to see the logic in the not killing Dropkick thing... He, or Shatter, or both were going to call Cybertron for reinforcements and they were going to hunt down the Autobots and kill any humans in their way.

Dropkick chose to try and transform while restrained by chains, he killed himself inadvertently. He also murdered two humans in cold blood just because he could, for the fun of it. That's not someone you keep alive, you put that animal down before it becomes a danger to others, basically.

Shatter was the team lead and clearly the smarter and more dangerous of the two. Dropkick was the dog she let off the leash to feed his desire to kill, she was constantly keeping him in check so he didn't blow their cover. She was the one who talked sweetly, coddled the humans and kept things in check. She could kill without compassion or a second thought, but she actually CHOSE to have a second thought. She knew what was at stake and kept herself in check. That makes her far more dangerous. That's the difference between a Psychopath (Dropkick) and a Sociopath (Shatter). Psychopaths kill because they can and get whatever possible thrill they can get out of it. A Sociopath has a conscience, but can turn it on and off when necessary and can utilize it to their advantage. Sociopaths will manipulate and use and then kill. Psychopaths just kill, indiscriminately, which makes them a tool for the here and now, but a Sociopath is here to stay. They'll do whatever's necessary to get what they want/need.

She's the more dangerous. You can always find another Psychopath, but Sociopaths? Especially ones as deft-handed as she is? Those are rare. Those are the truly dangerous ones.

Worst case scenario, the humans would've somehow imprisoned them and used Shatter, to a certain point, and then she would've gotten the upper hand. Dropkick would've killed until he was stopped, violently. There's not much use for either of them if you're not a Decepticon.

Bumblebee killed them, not only to save his world but ours as well. He knew what was at stake and he knew Charlie's world didn't deserve to die because of his inaction. He NOT killing them (in the heat of battle, rather than straight up murder) would be inaction and not very Autobot-like. "For evil to triumph, good men must do nothing." He did something, evil didn't triumph. Plus, the Autobot rebels live to fight another day and humanity is saved.

There's a difference between Bumblebee killing in battle and Optimus murdering and screeching about having his brother give him his freshly ripped off face or pulling the trigger of a shotgun at the back of Sentinel Prime's head. (Another brother. Huh. Seems there's a lot of Dr. Phil style issues running in that bloodline.) Though to be fair, Sentinel DID have it coming and mercy wasn't deserved. This was one killing Prime did in the films that I did wholeheartedly agree with and understand.

 

Amen. Smart, self-controlled villains like her are always the more dangerous ones.

 

He's supposed to be a good guy, not a murderer, so it would have done that for his character. Unless you're saying it's ok for good guys to commit murder as long as they're rebels and not police.

 

So you're saying that all soldiers at war should just capture the enemies as opposed to killing them?

Because I think you're forgetting that Bumblebee and the Decepticons are still very much at war.

 

This describes Dropkick and Shatter so well. She's one of my favorites in the movie and I thought it was a shame we saw so little of her.