Why the hatred with Windblade?

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by Lucas35, Dec 1, 2016.

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  1. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

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    I think they simply automatically went with the whole Japanese theme purely because they could shove a big honkin' katana-esque sword in as a result, which given its outright named the Stormfall Sword is a fairly large feature they can advertise about the figure on the package as well as its large removable scabbard.

    Which shows not a lot of thought actually went into the theme beyond BFS justification as, ironically, the body actually works as a generic base if you just remove the large head and swap the chest panel. Specifically if you just do the obvious and convert it into Slipstream.
    [​IMG]

    Agreed. Sad to say but I think the whole appeal of going for Japanese aesthetics when it comes to massive single swords with Transformers, is that all Hasbro has to justify is the character unsheathing the bade and charging headlong like Leroy Jenkins, easily enough made appealing in toy form. Gladiators and Knights, like Athena from Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel! or y'know Saber from Fate/stay night, are a bit more geared for one-on-one dueling...though Russel Crowe in Gladiator sure didn't have a problem taking on five guys at once in under a minute and given how Prime in the films is now a Knight and he's slaughtered entire armies of Decepti-generics, either option would have provided more interesting combat possibilities with weapon variations ('sword and board' for knight, dual gladius wielding for gladiator) as well as influencing the character with maybe a knightly sense of chivalry and duty, or the pride of a gladiator.

    Then explain All Hail Megatron's Codas.

    Because like it or not, the series impacted the greater story in all the IDW comics as a whole and thus reading Windblade's stuff was necesary? It's like how the MCU has people going to see films about characters they aren't normally interested in, because of how all the plots are intertwined in the bigger picture and missing a film that isn't as pointless as Iron Man 3 leaves out important context for when the big stuff happens.

    That's the problem with Windblade. I think this thread being in the comics section isn't the best place for it (though the mods moved it here so not much to be done I suppose) since it seems the majority of the people defending Windblade are exclusively focusing on only one current version of the character. And while yes, IDW Windblade is the main one, the fact she is not the only Windblade is continously glossed over even though that is the crux of the problem - she's in everything. And the other two concurrent instances of her are lukewarm at best (RID) and everybody agrees she was by far the worst thing in an already terrible series (CW). What emphasizes the problem is that across all three, her design is identical - absolutely no major differences to differentiate them from a visual standpoint of details, so we're supposed to get the impression she is the same no matter which fiction she's in despite the wildly opposite characterizations. And shoving a character in the face of the fandom, fan built or not, by giving her a coveted Generations slot out of the gate, isn't going to instantly endear her to the people she was supposedly created by. Especially not when the toy is sub-par in execution and doesn't even match the announcement lineart (which has RED wings...the toy has black wedges). Even Movie Bumblebee isn't this bad, simply because even though Prime BB is obviously based on him, at least there that BB can only speak in R2D2 noises instead of the crutch of radio splicing and the design is only reminiscent of movie BB while retaining stylistic differences natural to Prime's style like the encased wheel shoulders and the semi-organic curvature in the forearms.

    That's like saying the guy from The Bourne Legacy having his memories is more developed than Jason Bourne himself across the preceding three films.
     
  2. Succursal

    Succursal Well-Known Member

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    So what about Optimus Prime? I would assume most people picking up the first issue tomorrow aren't going to be doing it solely for Optimus Prime; rather, they like the current storyline and the rich ensemble of characters that is Soundwave, Thundercracker, Cosmos, Aileron, Victorion, etc as well as Optimus. They could have made the title "Adventures of Robots on Earth" and I don't think the buyership demo would have changed much. Why would it?

    Heck, Optimus Prime is my second most-hated character in the IDW comics and I'll be picking up the title tomorrow.

    What do you mean by "little regard"? Do you mean active dislike? I can't say one way or the other, since I mostly fall into the "disappointed indifference" camp, not the "hate her with the burning of a thousand suns" camp. But in TAAO at least for the first issues she's basically a non-presence. Ironhide and the Combaticons take center stage over her as far as page time. She's easy to tolerate even with a dislike of her since she has little substance and doesn't get loads of screentime.

    Only if the titular/main character is actually treated like a main character and gets the majority of the screen/action time. Which isn't true for Windblade in many of the continuities. When "who-also-appears" is who gets the most screentime, then I think there's certainly a basis to say they could be a big factor.

    They don't have to be a BIGGER factor. Even just being a big minority factor still accounts for part of the comic's appeal. The point isn't so much "Windblade is a non-factor in her comic sales" as it is: we can't tell precisely WHAT measure of sales were driven by Windblade's appeal, and what number were driven by the lovely art (even if it hadn't had my darlings in it I would have read it for the lovely artist's M. Scott gets paired with), what number were driven by a desire to support female Transformers or women in comics, or just plain curiosity and resignation, or a variety of other factors.
    Not...really? I mean it's nice that you think so highly of reviews on comic news sites, but I don't see any reason to share your esteem. Reviews from critics don't affect my own analysis or change what I see with my own eyes. They're a non-entity as far as my considerations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
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  3. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    I really wonder if you've even read the books at times. Windblade herself goes through notable development in the first mini, and a fair bit more since.



    But, Optimus Prime is still certainly a selling point, that is very hard to argue, and certainly the largest. People may *like* other characters, but... plenty of the sales of titles are based on things like cover, title, and so on. Presence of Optimus is going to affect a book's sales a lot more than Cosmos or Aileron.

    And, yes, "Optimus Prime" would certainly sell more than 'Adventures of Robots on Earth.' The latter doesn't even instantly evoke Transformers, so some people are going to skim over thinking it's a 'side' book or such.

    'Superman' sells more than 'Action Comics,' Batman more than 'Detective Comics.' Due to the name just being the title, people perceive it as the main title for those characters.

    Plus of course there's people who buy books based on covers in stores (which is literally what covers of comics are for), and Optimus, Windblade, etc. are much more often front and center than other characters. Jetfire and Aileron may appear occasionally, but definitely 'occasionally' and not 'most issues' like the main characters.

    Your considerations are fine for you and all, but we are talking about what affects sales totals, and not personal considerations, likes/dislikes, right?

    Like, these reviewers... they're literally people on sites people go to in order to tell what comics to buy, in addition to they themselves listing Windblade's character as a selling point. So they're both people who individually view Windblade as an attractive factor on whether or not to buy a title, and advertising the same to others. And that's not one reviewer, that's most of them.

    Is it that hard to picture people having different buying priorities than you, and 'Who the main character is' being one of them, and 'who casual readers see on the cover and, heck, title' being another?
     
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  4. Succursal

    Succursal Well-Known Member

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    Do you read Batman comics? "Batman" is no guarantee of who's going to be the MC. Different people are "Batman" depending on when you're buying it. When you see "Batman" you're being sold a universe, a premise: Gotham City, under never-ending attack from bizarre criminals. You are not being sold "Here is a comic about Bruce Wayne, if you love him come buy this".

    "Optimus Prime" may spell "Transformers universe" to some people, but Windblade certainly does not. She hasn't been around long enough to be that cemented to the franchise. Even people who have never viewed any Transformers media know who he is.

    That brings up, once again, the issue of *art* quality/style in itself attracting people, as well as the potential audience who is attracted to comics with female characters, i.e ones that are looking for comics with a female MC, not necessarily looking for *Windblade*.


    Yep! Which is why I have mentioned several reasons why people pick up a comic (art, female characters, because of the creators' talent, pre-existing storylines, shared universe, appreciation for ensemble cast, etc). You seem to be the one on a one-priority train, going on about how "IT'S WINDBLADE! THEY'RE BUYING FOR WINDBLADE! LOOK, SHE'S ON THE COVER! IT HAS HER NAME! WINDBLADE! THEY'RE ONLY BUYING FOR WINDBLADE!"

    I just think it's really ironic when people do the exact thing they accuse others of doing.
    I don't know, is it? You seem to have a hard time imaging any priorities for buying the Windblade comics other than "WINDBLADE!" so it's kind of odd to see you asking that question. You even bring up the good reviews the comics got, which would imply Scott's writing abilities are an attractant, not solely Windblade herself. (See: the falling Empire of Stone sales--a beloved MC is not enough to sustain interest for some people if the writing itself is unattractive).
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
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  5. Sockie

    Sockie Veteran

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    I disagree with this heavily. There may sometimes be someone else in the costume, but those occurrences are too few and far in-between to say that it's some regular expectation that someone else could be in the costume and that Bruce Wayne isn't the main attraction. Hell, most of the times when it has starred someone other than Bruce, like with Azrael and Gordon, it's to show why Bruce is the better Batman and builds up to his return. 99% of readers are definitely there for the original guy.
     
  6. LordGigaIce

    LordGigaIce A Chair!

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    Because they certainly couldn't have given her a sword as a knight!

    Um, no? I really don't need to? Different comic series, different dynamic.

    I'm not talking about TAAO. I conceded the point to you on that one.
    What I'm saying is that it's safe to assume people bought a series named Windblade because Windblade is popular.
     
  7. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

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    I said big sword. It's the toy's main accessory, scabbard included.

    It's the same bloody continuity!
     
  8. l0te

    l0te Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely. Don't discount the sales of those who will sub to all TF titles indiscriminately. Likewise, 4 of the 7 issues in the second series took place during a cross-over event, necessitating buying them to get the full story (and sales did drop once the CW arc was done, though not drastically). I have no love for Windblade, but hell if I wasn't finding out what happened to Prowl after all that setup. So I can personally guarantee you that some people were buying the title without liking the titular character.

    As for the first series, it's hard to say she was popular so much as that she was new. The book and the character were hyped up from the fan poll, it was a debut of the franchise's first all-female creative team, a new female CHARACTER, and the artwork was just breathtaking. So mow much of the sales was all of that, vs. Windblade as a character...?
     
  9. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Which don't really factor in when we're comparing TF books to TF books.


    Well, we can also say that the sales hold was high and the reviewers specifically singled out Windblade's character, and there's a number of single-character books to compare to. Also 'a new female character' still means Windblade is the selling point when she's the female character, an aspect of a character being a selling point is still that character.

    There's no way to give a precise breakdown, but frankly the dismissing of Windblade as a factor some people are doing is silly.


    But 'Batman' in the title will get sales based on people expecting Bruce Wayne, and books with Batman in the title do pretty consistently have him as a major character, and even when he's *not* the book is still being sold as Batman related.

    Which is what we're talking about.


    Bzzt, wrong, you've been specifically trying to argue that Windblade the character is not a big factor at all, and now you're trying to shift goalposts and change my argument into an absolute I haven't used. I've been specifically noting how there's multiple factors, one of which is clearly the character, citing both how simply how comics sales work, and additionally what reviewers recommending comics to others to buy have been using as recommending.

    You've got very little except waving your hands and saying 'But maybe she's not a significant factor that gets anyone to buy the book,' despite evidence to the contrary that being a title character right up front in the marketing who gets good reviews as a character specifically is a positive factor. So Hasbro/IDW think she's a factor, and we've also got outside sources promoting her as an attractive factor to the book.

    Flipside, we have you and a few others saying you personally don't think she's a factor because she didn't influence your priorities, which, hey, again, fine for you, says nothing about what affects other sales because we've got direct evidence of plenty of people using her as a factor.


    Remember, you're the one dismissing Windblade as a significant factor. Not that there can't be other factors, you're specifically dismissing that she's even one of them. I'm saying there's multiple priorities of which Windblade the character is clearly one of, with evidence of precisely that- the good reviews mention Scott's writing and Windblade's character. As Scott writes Windblade, the two are highly linked, Scott's writing is *part* of Windblade-the-character so to say 'it's not the character, it's the writing' is splitting hairs at best.

    The hoops you're jumping through to try and say the title character of a book and centerpiece of a story aren't a factor in the sales is, again, silly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
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  10. Succursal

    Succursal Well-Known Member

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    You want to throw around terms like "moving goal posts" and "jumping through hoops"? That's kind of hilarious, when you've whipped out one of the most well-known fallacies of all: the straw man. Please do show me where I've argued that Windblade is not a factor for anyone because she's not a factor for me.

    Go on. I'm waiting. 'Till then I'm not going to bother with the rest of your BS. Why, when you just blatantly make **** up about people and lie? Rude as heckie.
     
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  11. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Ok, since you ask, pretty easy.

    You claim it's erroneous that she's a selling point-
    "It's erronous and baseless to claim people bought it for her because of the title. It could have been titled "Dog****" and I would have read it." -Post 114 of the thread.


    On reviewers naming it as a selling point:
    "Reviews from critics don't affect my own analysis or change what I see with my own eyes. They're a non-entity as far as my considerations." -Post 122

    You also argued that Optimus Prime being in a title or not wouldn't be a selling point in the same post ("They could have made the title "Adventures of Robots on Earth" and I don't think the buyership demo would have changed much. Why would it?"), leaving little doubt that you meant who the title character is isn't a selling point at all in your eyes, be they Windblade or not.


    If you really have been meaning, "Oh, sure, she's one of the selling points, but not the only one," then... we agree, and can cease arguing!

    That has not been what I've been picking up from your phrasing at all, as the quotes above indicate. This could simply be miscommunication, but yea, those quotes pretty solidly read as not regarding Windblade as a selling point to me.
     
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  12. dj_convoy II

    dj_convoy II Remix!

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    Love when a discussion becomes a pissing contest. :eyeroll:
     
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  13. kyPRIME

    kyPRIME Banned

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    i'm buying Batman for Batman, Bruce Wayne Batman, if he's not there i don't care, i hate the robins, same with Optimus Prime #1, i'm back buying IDW only because they restarted exRID as Optimus Prime, i don't care about the other characters, same with Windblade, i buy TAAO for Windblade and nothing else
     
  14. REMINATOR

    REMINATOR Well-Known Member

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    Somewhere during page 2 or 3 of this thread existing, I was going to reply to this thread. I postponed it because I couldn't find this image in Google. Despite the artist had his reason, it just made no sense to me! I was not a fan of her to begin with. So this image only force me to hate her and IDW even more.
     
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  15. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Can you elaborate some? That seems a bit much for one image to me, so I may be missing context.
     
  16. Staredown

    Staredown Banned

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    Don't like the character or design. She's a Mary Sue that does no wrong, no real threat of death and even gives advice to Optimus Prime of all people. The way mairghread Scott can't take criticism of her or victorion says it all as she's petulant in her response to criticism.

    Not to mention starscream would have iced her long ago and certainly would not be listening to her.
     
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  17. NanakoPreame

    NanakoPreame Well-Known Member

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  18. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    WB's definitely made mistakes, some of which have helped 'Screamer gain power, and... like, everyone gives advice to Optimus. Kup, Ironhide, Aileron, Pyra Magna, Mistress of Flames, Magnus, Soundwave, Rodimus... it's not even like he listens to all of it either (or even most of it... Windblade was against the whole Earth thing after all).

    Not from what I've seen of Scott, and Starscream likes to use people. She's valuable to him. And she's someone he can *play politics* with, and he loves that.

    Starscream's not Megatron, he doesn't kill people very often. Sometimes, if they're total liabilities, but using 'em as fallguys and scapegoats is more his style.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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  19. Staredown

    Staredown Banned

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    Prime has done way too much listening to camiens difference there is Ironhide and kup are veterans.

    Scott I've personally witnessed unable to take criticism so that's an untruth to be honest.

    Starscream would absolutely if written correctly shank windblade and be done with her.
     
  20. Kirby0189

    Kirby0189 Soundpost

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    Well I don't know many writers who don't try to defend their work (most of the time). Heck, the guy who wrote The Beast Within tried to defend it! And at least she doesn't make fun of criticisms in very unfriendly ways like a certain Cartoon Network show I refuse to mention.
     
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