Investors are now openly declaring that they'd like to make entire franchises rather than prospective one-offs hoping to make shit happen. As you yourself seem to be noting by bringing the Ghostbusters remake into the discussion, that intention does not exactly ALWAYS equate to an eventuality. A movie STILL has to prove itself as a success to garner sequels just as much as it has to prove itself an outright failure to NOT garner sequels.

You're conflating many topics to the point of incoherence.

What do we NEED to know about these movies before we walk into the theater? Is it really a PROBLEM that the investors are planning for sequels now? What about ANY of that indicates that "it's all forced to be the same"...?

Optimus flies off into space to punch god in the face and the Autobots, Galvatron, and Earth are doing shit too while we wait for the next movie and Bumblebee spin-off.

TICKETS = SOLD.

"I haven't seen Captain America: Civil War so I'm qualified to judge it prematurely because the director of a different film left that project a year before," lol.

WTF.

Oh, and let's not forget "Transformers movies will avoid change and evolution" in light of the following points, lololol.

Well, obviously you just enumerated SEVERAL ways in which it isn't even CLOSE to being a reboot, lol.

We are following the same principal characters through a narrative expanding upon the established lore of a pre-existing timeline...isn't that the very essence of NOT A REBOOT?

And the whole "telling the audience everything it needs to know as quickly as possible" thing is a throughline for the franchise starting with the first film itself and continuing through every sequel since. Each movie has a HEY! THIS IS WHAT YOU MISSED! introduction precisely because it ISN'T a given that the whole audience is immediately familiar with the narrative up to that point.

Well, actually, the humans count too. Always have, always will.

And, yes, I see that you keep moving the goalpost.

Whoa, the nature of transience...that's HEAVY, bro.

But, yes, of course I do. At my age it would be hard not to, lol. Do YOU understand replay value? Because these movies have that IN SPADES. There is just TONS of stuff you've never properly seen or heard before almost every single time you watch one of these movies.

Frankly, that's a big part of their brilliance in terms of filmmaking.

You just KNOW there's more there if you just watch it a LITTLE more closely next time.

Hahaha...okay.

Transforming Autobots and Decepticons from Cybertron warring on Earth with Witwickys caught in the middle and countless designs and plot elements ripped STRAIGHT from the comics and cartoons of EVERY iteration NOT TO MENTION THE SAME CHARACTERS AND VOICE ACTORS yet "it never felt like Transformers to me," bwahahaha.

I mean...

>_>

LOLWUT

A fallacious comparison if ever I've heard one!

No, I'm describing the movies that are such crowdpleasers that the first two ALMOST broke the billion dollar mark at the box office and the next two actually DID break the billion dollar mark at the box office.

 

Yeah, I just don't understand remaking essentially the same movie over and over again.

Like joking aside, I strictly try not to watch these movies too much. Aside from noticing cool little CG quirks, the main thing i notice with each rewatch, is how shoddily they're put together narratively, how many missed opportunities they contain, and how awful a lot of the dialogue/humor is, save for just a few moments to the contrary.

I've said many times, I was burned the second time I watched ROTF.

I was actually nervous watching AOE the second time, worried i was going to ruin the mainly fun time i had at the cinema watching a TF movie in the cinema with my son for the first time.

 

Then maybe All Hail Megatron is a more apt comparison? Oh, yeah, nobody really liked how that started either.

Not in this case, because they weren't in AoE aside from the ones introduced in that film. The only consistent linear characters in the films to this point are Prime, Bumblebee, and Megatron, because in some form or another they're the only ones the films truly follow.

I don't find any of the new Autobots interesting. Hound is a poor man's rip off of Animated Bulkhead merged with Movie Ironhide and exists purely to replace him, Drift is everything wrong with Drift when he was introduced back in All Hail Megatron, Crosshairs is the tryhard edgelord, Bumblebee is Bumblebee and thus oversaturated, and Prime is apparently the only actual main character anymore since literally every other character by now has been proven to come and go as they please, since the plot only gives a shit about the guy Hasbro actually made into Robot Jesus with that bullshit Covenant of Primus retcon of the Thirteen.

And I will admit, hearing Lennox and Epps and Simmons were back legit made me hopeful. Initially. Of all the humans in the films, those were the only three who I genuinely liked by the end of DOTM. But then more details about the film came out and there is something fucking wrong if the only things I actually find interesting in a film called TRANSFORMERS is a trio of humans shoehorned into a plot continuing from a film they weren't even in.

This is supposed to be a film about a war between the Autobots and the Decepticons. But when both sides are dead and just replaced by new faces doing the same stuff, then there is not a single goddamn reason for me to care about characters who have targets on their back for existing. Because it isn't the same story to me anymore. What I want from the films is clearly the polar opposite of what you want, but I won't bother describing it because you don't really care about my opinions other than I disagree with you.

Name a Decepticon from AoE other than Galvatron. Because I've been told by many people who agree with you that there are no Decepticons in the film other than him.

Not in AoE and clearly not in TF5 either.

So there isn't a single original thing in the films? It's all just cobbled together from previous franchise plots and ideas?

Uh....no. Crosshairs in G1 is nothing like the one in AoE.

What's not to understand? That somebody has an opinon different from yours? Because that's how you are coming off here - somebody isn't seeing the films like you do, but your narcissism and ego have convinced you that you are never, ever wrong, so you're trying to tell somebody their opinion is incorrect despite all the evidence you provide already being in play for them to have that opinion.

You've obviously never even READ the book Huckleberry Finn...

 

You're tripping over your own insults. It's either "poor man's version" or "rip off" because they mean the same thing, so "poor man's rip off" is redundant. Also, he only resembles Bulkhead visually in that he's fat, green, and has a six wheeled vehicle mode. Their personalities could not be more different, obviously, and Bulkhead was a SWAT van, not a military truck. Hound has so many guns he has to toss them all off just to sit down, Bulkhead comes from a series where no Autobot uses guns, least of all him.

As for being a replacement for Ironhide, well, yeah, of course he was. And? All characters exist to fill roles, and most teams in everything have a big lug character. Rhinox, Bulkhead, Bulkhead again, Ironhide, now Hound. This exists outside TFs too. Having a big guy around just works.

A patently absurd comparrison. When Drift first appeared in AHM, he was introduced in the most ridiculous, fan-fictiony way of the characters awkwardly introducing him while he smugly, and implausibly, dispatches an enemy with zero effort in a wince-inducing scene that plays out like bad anime. This is a character infamous for "My name is Drift."

AOE Drift didn't even get named in any dialogue, let alone by himself. In fact, unless you caught the blink-and-you-miss-it label on a computer scene that didn't even clearly identify his alt mode, you could be forgiven for thinking he went completely un-identified. And you're trying to say he was like the character who was ham-fistedly talked-up in story, and had his own spotlight and mini-series? The closest he got to IDW Drift was that he's a great swordfighter, but all Autobots in the movies are exceptionally skilled, so that's not very stand out. In fact, he didn't stand out at all. He was soft-spoken, sage-like, and not really taken seriously by the other Autobots.

Literally the exact opposite of IDW Drift at his start, but much closer to Roberts' revised take on the character that people liked. You're really not doing a good job of convincing people of your arguements. And the way you make these weak comparrisons that feel more like antagonistic jabs than thought-out retorts really doesn't do much to combat the popular opinion that you really do blindly hate the movies. And this coming from a guy who doesn't normally agree with that opinion, except right now. You don't gotta like 'em, dude. You're coming across as super aggressive.

This is honestly the best you could do? "Wannabe badass" would be a less tired descriptor than those, and be closer to the truth.

I don't get "edgelord." "Tryhard" perhaps, due to his one scene of flashy grand-standing which, honestly I wish more non-Prime/non-Bumblebee Autobots got. More and more it feels like anyone besides them doesn't matter. It's honestly small and hardly worth mentioning in the grand scheme, but it feels like so much as we're conditioned to expect so little. You say tryhard, I say "holy shit someone beside Prime or Bee actually got to do something!" Used to be each Autobot got a little moment to shine. Crosshairs had is parachute bit, Hound got his last stand. (Drift got nothing. Again, stark contrast to a character people were calling a Mary Sue) Only in addition we got, like, real dialogue of them bickering and shit. Yet it was the same awkward, clunky lines that feel like the actors are reading synopsis of conversations isolated from each other in sterile recording sessions than natural dialogue between people, but Crosshairs said and did more in AOE than, say, Sideswipe said or did in ROTF and DOTM.

Like you realise the robots doing more stuff, having describable personalities, and being put to the forefront is a good thing, right? It's what we want from these movies?

 

Yeah, you're right, I got a little overboard there - and thank you for being polite in dismantling my argument and giving concrete facts and examples. Feels nice to be proven wrong in a respectful, well-supported post like this - way too rare these days, sadly - so thank you for that.

 

Personally speaking, I actually prefer the more traditional approach to sequels.

Having said that, I am open-minded, so I will see how individual spinoff films turn out. I am the type of Transformers fan that cares more about how the characters are executed rather than what characters appear, so if Bumblebee and the other robots in the Bee movie are depicted well, then cool. If Paramount is excited then I hope there's a legitimate reason they are excited.

I do hope there is a Beast Wars/Beast Machines inspired film in the future. The Beast Era doesn't get enough love from Hasbro these days.

Also, a Lockdown film taking place before the last film could be cool. Since he's not a Decepticon he could always play the anti-hero and go after some rogue Decepticon or other threat.

 

I'm glad you and I are ones who while acknowledging the faults of this franchise, we still retain faith and belief in it anyway.

I'm the same regarding certain tentpoles. I'm a character person than a story one. I have hope in the depictions of the TFs in TLK, and future films going forward.

#BeastWarsFilmOrBust

#LockdownSpinOffOrBust

 

I don't know if faith is the right word, but I do love Transformers, and I love it for what it is and not for what it isn't.

The thing about Transformers fans is that different fans often grew up or were introduced to vastly different characters, fiction, and toys. My introduction was Beast Wars, although I do remember seeing ads during G2 for repackaged G1 episodes. Consequently, we tend to have specific ideas of what Transformers shows and movies should be. I used to be that way, but I am not that way anymore. Now I tend to like shows and films and comics for what they are trying to be. I definitely don't judge them based on how they fit my inner vision of a Transformers film. I don't want to be pandered to. Consequently, I have ended up enjoying a lot of fiction I wouldn't enjoy otherwise.

Sure, I don't think the movies are perfect, and there are things I would have done differently. Frenzy would have been totally different. I would not have killed of Megatron in the first film. Barricade would have returned in ROTF. I think Sideways was a missed opportunity. I would not have killed off Starscream and Shockwave in DOTM. I would have had Lockdown captured in his own ship at the end of AOE.

After DOTM, I would have made Transformers 4 by having the Autobots hunting the remaining Decepticons on Earth, and while hunting Decepticons a few Cons beg Optimus for mercy before being blasted to bits by...Galvatron! He would have been a totally separate character and totally insane and a menace to both factions. Having said that, I enjoy what we got, and I think I enjoyed it so much because it was so different from my vision. I enjoy seeing takes on characters and stories that are different from my own.

And yeah, A Beast Wars or Lockdown film could be totally awesome!

 

I desperately want to see the Autobots on their downtime. They feel like killing machines first and foremost, and I want to be shown/reminded that they have personalities outside of fighting and killing.

 

I just hope that Bee will be able to speak in this spinoff.

 

"Why Bee Movie has a new director."

 

I believe the colloquial expression would be, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Maybe? I wouldn't know, I haven't had a chance to read it yet. But I'm looking forward to it!

No spoilers, plz.

Stinger leaps to mind, along with not-officially-named-onscreen KSI-'cons like Two-Head, for instance.

And a major plot point of the film was Megatron's revival as Galvatron and his manipulation of KSI affording him a new army of Decepticons after they were seemingly all killed off in the previous film. Not to mention an entirely NEW threat in the form of Lockdown and The Creators.

Your point, such as it is, rings hollow at best.

Crosshairs doesn't HAVE to be like his G1 iteration, there are PLENTY of original ideas in the films, that wasn't my point, what I said, and I'm assuming you know that, the Witwicky's were in 3 out of 4 movies so far, ffs. You WERE talking about how the movies "didn't feel like Transformers," so the point stands regardless of whether or not the Witwickys return. Their presence has certainly been strong, regardless.

No, I have no problem with differing opinions...but I certainly don't mind discussing WHY I disagree myself. My point was that these movies are positively LADEN with core elements, concepts, and characters from throughout ALL iterations of the franchise. With that in mind, I can't help but see the opinion that they "still don't feel like Transformers" to be nothing more than stubborn contrarianism.

An opinion with which anyone is of course free to disagree. But I'll put my extensive laundry list of core elements, concepts, and characters from the entire franchise which were included throughout the movies up against some vague, wishy-washy, unsupported "feelings" any day.

It's not a matter of narcissism or ego, it's simply evidence supporting my perspective vs. well, nothing really supporting theirs beyond "feelings," lol.

My entire class read it in grade school, actually. And I've seen two film adaptations since then, fwiw.

Your point in mentioning it seems to be that the movies are awful and we're all just pretending they're not for the sake of saving face after being scammed, a position with which I heartily disagree.

How that suggests to you that I've never read the book is beyond me.

Saved me a lot of time there, thanks. And well said!

Also, in case you missed it, Drift and Hound are actually mislabeled as one another when KSI is tracking them from above, lol.

Dun goof'd!

XD

I don't know...the whole Beast Wars thing recently had its own season of TF: Prime, leading up to its cancellation, and even a follow-up movie, not to mention the whole concept essentially carrying over to TF:RiD. That's PLENTY for me, but then I was never too big a fan of the idea in the first place.

I'm still open to the idea though and the same goes for a Lockdown spin-off, obviously.

:)

Also very well said, thanks.

As you pointed out, I think a lot of the hate from fans towards these movies is basically just a closed-minded, slavish adherence to and utter dismissal of anything not conforming 100% to their own fan-fic ideas and preconceived notions of what SHOULD have been. Sometimes people just need to relax and see what happens, they'd probably be surprised by how much fun they might have simply letting the filmmakers tell the story THEY want to tell.

Well, they are warriors in an intergalactic conflict, after all. I think the movies have done a good job showing that they have fun and bond and just kinda hang out and talk here there, all things considered. Especially as the CGI budget has steadily increased to allow for more content like that.

I'm always ready for MORE of that, though! And I fully expect we'll continue to get more of that in keeping with the continued upward trend towards that effect as the movies progress.

 

So then why the AOE "soft reboot?"

 

Seriously?

Mostly because Shia didn't want to sign on for any more films and because most of the Decepticons were dead.

It's pretty much only a "reboot" insofar as the cast was pretty heavily overhauled between the 3rd and 4th films. But it still follows the same continuity so it's not REALLY a reboot, obviously. Hence, "soft reboot."

Which is a stupid term for it, of course. But it gets the idea across, fwiw.

 

I think you're about right there, but there's still no denying that at the marketing point, Bay and Paramount were pushing AOE under the false pretense that it was in some way a reboot, of some consistency or other.

Probably, as you say, partly to cover up for damage done to the cybertronian character line up, non returning cast, and also the shift toward patchy cg.

Seems broke to me!  

 

How about an 80s centric movie - it seems like Bee was here way before the other bots, it would be ace to see a really cool period movie which could help straddle the 'we hate the movies' and 'we love the cartoon' divide

 

Not sure on this yet....I get a feeling it will be like marmite and may get mixed reviews...unless it's a full on epic adventure and not a generic boy grows into unassuming hero type flick then I'm game!!

 

Soft reboot doesn't really fit well. It's more a continuation with some new characters involved and some of the character we knew moved out of the story. It seems like you need some time between stories to get an actual soft reboot so when Disney launches it's new Pirate movie it's been enough years to call it a soft reboot. Even with Fast Five going in a very different direction for that franchise it's something hard to call a soft reboot.

I guess a real world comparison would be going from World War II to the Cold War. The leaders might have changed, who's a world power and who is not might have changed but it's all part of the same world history. We want a name for the big shifts to a narrative, but English is one of those languages that lacks a proper term. Not really helped by films, books, comic books, and television having all these ideas for what you call the shifts.

 

They're also intelligent robots that can think and feel.

But they haven't. At all. Describe to me, using evidence, the Autobots personalities outside of what was shown during combat.

It will be a short list.

 

I can give you a list though the detail of description does depend on how developed the Transformers are. AOE is a step in the right direction but hopeful Bay keeps up the improvement and we get more development.

Optimus Prime (obviously the easy one) - A leader who has suffered from both betrayal and the tragedies of war. He struggles to hold onto his morals and his continuously slips beyond his breaking point, resulting in him being a more aggressive warrior. He lost faith in humanity after they betrayed them; killing and melting down many of his comrades and friends. But fortunately one human he managed to bond with showed him the reason why humanity is still worth protecting. Out of all the Autobots, Optimus is actually quite close to Bumblebee and finds that Bumblebee is like a son to him.

Bumblebee - A young scout that can talk but he plays up the mute act. (Admittedly it is fun to do.) But while he tends to be mischievous and reckless, he is also brave and willing to step up to responsibility. Though he gets angry when others don't trust his choices since they see him as a child.

Ironhide - A tough soldier that has a love for guns. He is quite loyal to the Autobot cause. He seems wary of humans but tolerates them even when they make a choice that infuriates him.

Hound - At first glance he's just like Ironhide but thanks to character development he grows into his own character. Hound was the soldier who loved guns and grenades, he possible might be considered the kindness of the dirty four in comparison. Usually when his teammates got into fights, he would break it up. But that's not to say he doesn't get into fights since he will bicker sometimes with his teammates. Hound in the beginning has a strong hatred of humans, commenting on how Optimus' vow to never kill a human was a mistake. But after spending time with Cade, Tessa, and Shane his hatred began to turn into care. He still hated the humans that betrayed them, but he had now grown to care for the humans willing to help, even going so far to almost lose his life to keep them protected until help arrived. Besides Bumblebee, Hound arguable is possible the most loyal to Optimus. He'll even insure that his teammates are willing to help, especially Crosshairs.

Drift - A former Decepticon turned Autobot. Drift tends to try to be peaceful but sometimes slips into his more violent personality. He refers to Optimus as his sensei which is Japanese term for teacher, showing that he turns toward Optimus for learning. This is further adding on when they reunited, Drift brought up to Optimus how he felt Bumblebee made foolish and reckless decisions as the leader and shouldn't have taken on the responsibility since he considered him a child. But while Drift carries huge amount of respect for Optimus, he doesn't quite agree with all the choices the Autobot leader makes, but due to his respect he never objects them. Unlike his comrades, Drift doesn't actually hate the humans for their deeds. Instead he pities them for the choices and actions they made. Because of this he was more willing to help Cade and his family.

Crosshairs - An Autobot who prefers to look out more for himself than others. Crosshairs would prefer more to be alone, even taking glee at the though of his comrades taking each other out so there would be no one left to give him orders but him. He was even willing to abandon Optimus until convinced otherwise by Hound with the help of a gun. But dispite his loyalty issues, Crosshairs admits that he can't help but follow Optimus into battle by him noting "Ugh you just wanna die for the guy. That's leadership. Or brainwashing, or something." Crosshairs possible has the strongest disliking toward humans and it's unclear if his feelings have change. But it is clear he at least tolerates Cade and his family. Crosshairs also shown signs of being a bit of a gun expert and knowledgable about the workings of a ships. This is evident by him growing frustrated when Bumblebee wasn't able to shoot down enough jets before putting him in the piloy's seat to take out a good number of them himself. There's also the fact how much knowledge he had of the knightship, knowing what traps to lock for, what circuit to look for to release the anchors, and even managed to locate and pilot one of the jets.

Brains - Decepticon turned Autobot, Brains was friends with another Decepticon turned Autobot named Wheelie. He was an intelligent transformer that was able to gather amount of information but he disliked being disrespected. After he was taken by KSI, Brains discovered that Megatron was still alive when he picked up brain readings. But out of bitterness and anger for what the humans had down and the fact they shocked him whenever he called them out on his actions, Brains decided to let the humans suffer the consequences of their actions and helped KSI create Galvatron.

That's about all I can list. They are other Autobots that had more defined personalities but they weren't fleshed out very much, even when they appeared in multiple films. Before AOE Optimus, Ironhide, and Bumblebee seemed to be only transformers that got some sort of character development. Megatron is too early to say but we may finally get some character development with him in TLK since so far it's been the whole taking over with tiny amounts of character development like in DotM and maybe AoE.

So looking at my list I managed to list 7 Transformers that got some character development in the films. Which is definitely an improvement over the previous number of 3.