Livingdeadan: I said he lost the BW show which he did, and I already said the empire didn't win empire strikes back so that's not proving anything. Either way if someone watched BW to the end would they say Megatron won, no they wouldn't because the show ended with him defeated he lost the show, the war it depends if it ended with the Nemesis battle or not.

Derail a thread you brought up those other villains first I was just countering what you said. You brought up Loki not me, someone else brought up Empire not me. I'm just responding to what people say. You brought up the other movies stop blaming me and take responsibility.

He still lost each season did he get the allspark nope, did his space bridge allow him to take Cybertron nope, he lost and was chained to Starscream. Did he win season three nope he was beaten and taken to prison. This isn't a fair comparison because you're ignoring the fact that Megatron lost every season.

I can play your game too, Movie Megatron set out to kill Optimus he succeeded, separate Sam from his allies he succeeded, find the harvester yep, kill Sam before he reaches Optimus success, obtain the Matrix, activate the machine success. Trick Optimus into reviving Sentinel check, get the pillars check, launch invasion check, exile Autobots check, launch the pillars check begin transporting Cybertron check. Build his body check, take it over check, trick the humans into getting the seed check, bring his army online check. Get seed and detonate it failed. They succeed at everything except the last part, just like animated Megatron every season would obtain his goal except the last part, losing at the last moment. They both fail at the last moment both of them, comes with the territory of being a villain.

1. Grimlockprimal you're biasm is showing. Killed Optimus yep after HR got in the way of Optimus who was about to blow Megatron's head off, he was also kicking his ass throughout the fight.
2. Led an assault on a city an assault that guess what failed as in they lost.
3. Yeah struck a deal that resulted in him becoming a slave and being constantly tortured and forced to essentially become Starscream how dignified. Can't forget the part where he fried his circuits and went insane, which resulted in him shooting at his troops more than the Autobots did. He got a new body so what so did Movie Megatron you want to know the difference he's not a slave, he's not insane who got the better end of that deal?
4. Can't forget his killing of Prime ended with him near death, killed by Starscream and enslaved not much of a win.
5. Killed a shuttle of Autobots well actually Starscream killed three of them Megatron spent the whole battle in Starscream hands. He executed Ironhide I'll give you that but he did not kill them single handily.
6. Every Megatron has ruled Cybertron at some point, and it's not like he actually won the war, what's that the Autobots take Cybertron at the end of the movie so the decepticons lose, I wouldn't say lose just set back a little, do they still have Cybertron when the credits roll, uh no, then they lose.
7. Killed Starscream I'll give you this one.


It's easy to make something sound good when you ignore the details, I got nothing on BW Megatron I said he was more dangerous, I said he was successful that doesn't mean I like him more.

 

Yes but you go on at length about other people's examples and ignore the actual argument.

Wrong - he did.


Oh, and before you try and weasel your way out of this, here's the AllSpark from the first episode

Never got the chance to set the coordinates...except y'know even in failure he still got to Cybertron anyway because Omega Supreme ended up teleported to the same place he was.

For all of five seconds before Starscream's sudden mouth weapon thingy disabled the chains

Oh, I'm sorry, but what was it YOU EXPLICITLY SAID EARLIER?

Gee, loosing sounds like a pretty damn big obstacle if you ask me. And you ARE also saying there that if the villain beat the heroes endlessly, that would be boring. So, he doesn't endlessly beat them.

Nope, failed - the whole point of killing Optimus was to eliminate the only guy who could kill The Fallen by being a Prime.

He failed to keep Prime dead long enough for this to not happen.

Nope, failed, still got back to 'em

Like that was hard? It was in one of the largest fucking structures on Earth!

Nope, by modern definition, death actually is only the state of the human body when revival is impossible. Obviously, Sam was brought back so all he suffered was cardiac arrest, and not long enough to suffer brain damage either. If you insist this is "death" then you're saying that people die every time they have a heart attack.

He wasn't even anywhere to be seen when that shit happened. That was all Fallen - Megatron and The Matrix have never even been on screen at the same time.

Hold on, this implies that killing Prime earlier might have fucked him over, wouldn't it? After all, if Prime was dead, he couldn't ever have resurrected Sentinel, right?

Again, he had nothing to do with that - he was too busy being a robot ice cube in the north pole.

Now you're just listing off shit the Decepticons were doing, regardless of wether or not Megatron actually was present for them.

That was Sentinel.

He never touched a pillar.

Now you're just saying Megatron was doing everything Sentinel actually did. I'm pretty sure Sentinel was actually bitchslapping Megatron around during this exact scene, no less.

How do you differentiate that from sheer convenience? Megatron didn't need to do jack shit for Attinger to want the Seed to farm magic liquimetal.

Again, he didn't even need to be involved for that.

So basically invalidating everything he did in the film.

Uh, no...

Megatron's whole plan during Animated S1 was to rebuild his body, kill Starscream, and retake control of the Decepticons. He succeeded in all of these objectives.

Getting the AllSpark was just a bonus and effectively making Prime destroy it was also sort of a mutual-no win situation - if Megatron couldn't have the AllSpark, NOBODY COULD.

Biasm isn't a word - it's "bias"  

My GOD the irony of this statement.

 

Oh I'm aware I was deliberately leaving out details to show how easy it is to make something sound bad. Livingdeaddan's post was so inaccurate he forgot to mention that half of those ended with the decepticons losing. And you're missing my point did he win Megatron rising no, did he win A bridge too far no, did he win Endgame no. He didn't win any of the seasons the Allspark was his goal it's why he came into contact with the Autobots in the first place. It's what he's after in Megatron rising and it's destroyed didn't get it. He lost, he may of lost for only a few minutes but he lost. At the end of season 1 he is not victorious, nor the end of season 2 or 3. HE LOST HE LOST EVERY FINALE AND NOTHING YOU SAY WILL CHANGE THAT FACT.

 

Alright. Well here we go, and no, Im not gonna overreact this time. Sorry about that last time...Anyway

1. Autobot Burnout. Just because TF Animated Megatron got the allspark at the end of the episode doesn't automatically negate the fact at the end of the day that he still pretty much lost every battle. You seem to have side tracked the point on that one.

2. "Never got the chance to set the coordinates.." Ummm, your point exactly...If he never got a chance to set the coordinates isn't it even a BIGGER failure? He still failed big time, even if he eventually did manage to get back onto cybertron. Point is, his original plan failed, as pointed out. Some other random event doesn't somehow negate the fact that his ORIGINAL PLAN FAILED.

3. "Gee, loosing sounds like a pretty damn big obstacle if you ask me. And you ARE also saying there that if the villain beat the heroes endlessly, that would be boring. So, he doesn't endlessly beat them."

You are right on that, soo I have nothing to say.

4. "Nope, failed - the whole point of killing Optimus was to eliminate the only guy who could kill The Fallen by being a Prime.

He failed to keep Prime dead long enough for this to not happen."
No. That is simply wrong. His goal is to kill Optimus, and he kills Optimus. Just cause he is revived later in the movie doesn't side track his ORIGINAL goal of killing he HAD back at the start. He still succeeded in killing him. Even if he was literally revived 2 minutes after their fight. Megatron still SUCCEEDED in KILLING him. So yes, He does achieve that goal. You often (to me anyway) seem to take events from different parts of the story and try to either support or to destroy arguments based on their context. Like earlier, Lord Tron mentions that tfa megatron never got the allspark when he was trying to point out that he always lost. You said he did get the allspark so the WHOLE statement was wrong. When, in fact, it isn't. He still loses pretty much every time. One instance in ONE certain story doesn't somehow usurp the fact that he loses every time.
And now you are using this logic AGAINST Movie Megatron. Which isn't right. Movie Megs DOES succeed at killing Optimus. Thus showing he DID accomplish a goal. Even if he is revived later the point his mute, he did KILL him for a period of time. Whether that be a few seconds to eternity.

5."Nope, failed, still got back to 'em"
fair enough, but he still died before he could actually get to them. And I'll elaborate on this later...

6. "Like that was hard? It was in one of the largest fucking structures on Earth!" Ummmmm....so because the structure was "large" it somehow makes it easy to find? In fact, this would probably make it more difficult. Who would guess the Pyramids were a giant alien star destroying lazer. And no, don't BS by trying to say "I would!" Because you wouldn't. Hell, the whole concept of transformers IS "HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT" Which effectively the star harvester IS doing. However this point is rather un needed considering the decepticons ALREADY new where the harvester was, it was the matrix they were trying to find. Which of course they DID effectively get at the end of the movie.

7."Nope, by modern definition, death actually is only the state of the human body when revival is impossible. Obviously, Sam was brought back so all he suffered was cardiac arrest, and not long enough to suffer brain damage either. If you insist this is "death" then you're saying that people die every time they have a heart attack."
Um, did you forget the part where Sam COULD NOT be brought back by the shock pads. The only way Sam is Brought back IS through Supernatural Means. Thus he technically DOES die. IDK what "modern" definition you have been reading but that should be considered wrong. If by what you are saying was correct, the term should be called disintegration. Because in fiction, people DO fully die and are brought back countless times. Lets say a popular example...Gandalf? When he clearly states HIMSELF that he dies. Are you trying to tell me he just had "cardiac arrest"? Or what about (and no, No worries, I am not getting religious, this as just an example) Jesus in the bible. Your telling me when they pierced his side and blood gushed out, than he remained dead for three days, than came back. That was all...cardiac arrest??
Sam LITERALLY GOES to robot heaven where he is brought back from death. HE DID DIE. No way around it.

8."He wasn't even anywhere to be seen when that shit happened. That was all Fallen - Megatron and The Matrix have never even been on screen at the same time."
Absolutely wrong. He is literally STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO THE FALLEN WHEN THIS HAPPENS. Need a picture?

9."Hold on, this implies that killing Prime earlier might have fucked him over, wouldn't it? After all, if Prime was dead, he couldn't ever have resurrected Sentinel, right?"
Huhh, the facepalm I could do right now. You did it again, you tried to take a completely different goal Megatron had at a different time and tried to nullify his achievement of another completely separate goal. Once again, this is simply wrong. Megatron STILL ACHIEVES HIS GOAL OF TRICKING OPTIMUS INTO REVIVING SENTINEL. "Oh no he tried to kill Optimus last movie, this somehow totally destroys the fact that he achieved his goal of tricking prime into getting sentinel..." NO! That is wrong. Also I have explained multiple times how the movies DO NOT contradict each other, if you want to go find one of the many threads have posted about that, you are happy to do so.

10. "Again, he had nothing to do with that - he was too busy being a robot ice cube in the north pole." Either he was talking about the control pillars, or maybe he was implying the the hundreds of pillars, if he was than you are right, that was under Soundwave's control.

11. "Now you're just listing off shit the Decepticons were doing, regardless of wether or not Megatron actually was present for them." So...Wait what? He is the LEADER of an army. So when YOUR army has the task of taking over a city, than proceeds to do so UNDER your command, it doesn't TECHNICALLY count as your achievement because YOU arn't actually the apart of frontal assault. Even though tactically it was your doing and your IDEA, AND it is YOUR army you don't get ANY victory because "you weren't physically partaking." Wow, guess all those army generals and war commanders should get all those medals they have received removed, because technically, that isn't their victory. Also..btw, Megatron WAS in Chicago when it was getting blown to ash, he was in the center of it actually. Thus blowing this weird theory out of the water anyway.

12. "That was Sentinel."
It was Sentinel and Megatron. Megatron doesn't start getting bitch slapped until the end of the movie. So when he AND sentinel order something, it is still BOTH their achievements. Hell, we even see Megatron ordering the decepticons in a scene AFTER he is bitch slapped by Sentinel. Meaning he still has control over them.

13. "He never touched a pillar."
Once again how is this point even valid? True, technically HE wasn't the one to actually give the order so it really isn't HIS achievement but my point still stands. If you order someone to do something, and they do it, doesn't that make it a success for the person giving the order? I honestly don't know where your logic behind this idea is coming from that you have to PHYSICALLY PARTAKE in an action to get an achievement.

14. "Now you're just saying Megatron was doing everything Sentinel actually did. I'm pretty sure Sentinel was actually bitchslapping Megatron around during this exact scene, no less." I have already pointed out how this is wrong and do not need to restate it...

15. "How do you differentiate that from sheer convenience? Megatron didn't need to do jack shit for Attinger to want the Seed to farm magic liquimetal." Because the whole reason Attinger was hunting the Autobots and Cons was for Attinger to get a 7 FIGURE PIECE OF JOSHUA'S COMPANY. And to get that money Attinger needed the Seed from Lockdown for ksi. And the only way to get that was for Prime to be captured by Lockdown. And how do I make Optimus easy to capture? Ohh, I don't know, Maybe I could start by having a GIANT DEATHBATTLE in the middle of a highway. That might draw some attention.

16. "Again, he didn't even need to be involved for that."

HAHAHAHAHAHAH WHAT? He HAS to be involved for that even to work. HAHAHAHA what were you trying to even say? You literally see Galvatron hacking the other drones with his hand when he is reactivated in China.

17. "So basically invalidating everything he did in the film."
What???? How? Just because his last objective failed this IMMEDIATELY invalidates all his previous achievements? Once again I do NOT understand where you are pulling this sense from. He still built himself a brand new body. He still allowed ksi to get the seed. He still reactivates his army for a short time. Once again, how are ALL his accomplishments squandered just because his final goal could not be reached?

18. "Uh, no..."

Uhhh..yes, you couldn't even think of a valid response for that.

19. "Megatron's whole plan during Animated S1 was to rebuild his body, kill Starscream, and retake control of the Decepticons. He succeeded in all of these objectives.

Getting the AllSpark was just a bonus and effectively making Prime destroy it was also sort of a mutual-no win situation - if Megatron couldn't have the AllSpark, NOBODY COULD."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You literally just proved my point! TFA Megatron did all those things and still technically fails with the allspark part. You said getting/destroying the allspark as an objective didn't negate his past achievements. BRAVO!!! You figured it out. You applied that logic for TFA Megatron but than completely neglected it for Movie Megs. Nice one. Galvatron rebuilt his body. Galvatron got the seed. Galvatron Had a new small army. He lost the seed at the end. But he still lived on and had his redemption. So, just like you said for TFA Megatron. HOW DOES THIS NEGATE HIS PREVIOUS GOALS?!!!???


20.Biasm isn't a word - it's "bias"
Once again, doesn't negate the fact you are being Biased.

21. "My GOD the irony of this statement"
Yes. For you.

Alright now that I'm done with that rant I'd like to tell you autobot burnout I mean no harm. But I am simply telling you what you are wrong about.

 

Fair enough, but Ani. Megatron is a good example of how to have the bad guy ultimately loose every time and still remain a big threat.

Uh, not really. His plan was to go through the space bridge to get to Cybertron.

Which is pretty much exactly what happens - he goes through the spacebridge, and the next place he eventually ends up is Cybertron. It just took longer.

You say that like Megatron hasn't tried to kill Prime in general for the past 30 years of the franchise.

Why he put extra emphasis on it in ROTF is because Prime is the only one who can kill The Fallen. After all, it isn't until Prime is dead that The Fallen actually makes planetfall.

Seriously, this is "Unicron sends Galvatron to go destroy The Matrix because it's the one thing that can kill him" logic.

But that in turn overlooks how Megatron is still better off after all those events - he has a body, Starscream is dead (or so he thinks), he has unquestioned control of the Decepticons again...oh, and he's kidnapped Professor Sumdac a.k.a. the greatest ally the Autobots have.

Does he always fail? At face value, yes, but he's never suffered a defeat on the level of Movie Megatron suffering 100% army casualty rates, the destruction of the mcguffin of the day, and usually the inconvenience of death since he comes back every other film anyway.

Again, the point of killing Prime at that point was to remove the only thing The Fallen was actually afraid of killing him.

In that respect, Megatron failed.

I don't think you quite understand how big the Pyramid in question is.

You do understand that it's perfectly normal to use defibrilators at least twice to try and shock a person's heart back into pumping blood, right? The defibs don't actually, directly force the human body to just magically come back to life - essentially, cardiac arrest puts the human body on "pause" and the defibs are there to make the body resume normal "play" action.

Also, you are implying literal MAGIC is to explain that scene. In a sci-fi film. Riiiiiiiight.

...you're telling me a medical dictionary is wrong?

Usually not in Transformers if their name is not Megatron or Optimus Prime, to be fair.

To be perfectly honest? I actually never understood what the fuck was going on with Gandalf's cheating of death after the Balrog.

It's almost like he was...the son of GOD or something...

Seriously, though, you're trying to justify something in a sci-fi film by citing the Bible?

Then why is this concept never, ever revisited? Furthermore, why isn't Optimus there, either? He is dead, so shouldn't he be in Robot Heaven, too?

I concede that point, because unlike most of the people who do not agree with me about the films, you at least provide visual proof to back your claims. I thank you for this.

See, this is where I'm just straight up confused - because when the hell did Megatron actually plan all this shit out? As far as I know, you're telling me Megatron planned to resurect Sentinel the whole time by tricking Optimus into doing it...before Sentinel ever left Cybertron. Which is before Megatron left Cybertron.

The only logical conclusion is that he had planned both the schemes in ROTF and DOTM simultaneously before ever having chased after the AllSpark to begin with. If you can explain this convoluted problem, I would greatly appreciate the assistance.

I don't even remember where that point was leading, honestly.

You sure? I distinctly recall Megatron saying something like "our Cybertron" only for Sentinel to immediately snap back with his God complex making him only treat their "partnership" as purely for the benefit of cybertron but still making Sentinel superior to Megatron.

But he didn't actually launch them, physically.

And what did Megatron have to do with that, exactly?

Uh, how does that have anything to do with manipulating Attinger to build him in the first place? I mean, Attinger outright says Galvatron is supposed to actually be more or less a copy of Prime...and he still ended up looking more like Megatron but with a truck mode. Why the hell would Megatron want to be rebuilt as an inferior copy of his nemesis?

But he's already networked into them - going back to film 1, all modern technology is actually derived from Megatron (IIRC this is the reasoning for why all the kitchen bots in ROTF brought to life from the shard are evil by default) - so basically he's just extending his range of influence like a computer virus or something. Most of the legwork was already done for him by that point.

Now apply this logic to what you said about Megatron not getting the AllSpark in Animated and you might actually see where I'm coming from here.

It was leading into the next bit, not because I didn't have an answer.

How does it negate his previous goals? Well, for starters...what the hell is Galvatron even trying to do anymore? Decepticons are all gone, Cybertron's gone, AllSpark's gone, Seed is gone, Harvester is gone, hell most of the Autobots are gone too.

There are no more objectives for him - everything he came to Earth for in the first place is gone.

Uh, that was actually directed at somebody else, not me.

 

If a production team is crafty you can know the good guy will win but still get some nice film tension. With Saving Private Ryan we all know the Americans eventually defeat the Germans, but what we don't know is if any member of the team will see the end of the war or not. It feels like any member of the team could be killed at almost any point so the fight in the little town feels like something they could lose until help arrives at the end.

That's really the trick for a production team. You are saddled with a good guy win because that's just about all the studios want, but you can't make it feel like it was too inevitable. The good guy win has to not feel like was preordained the moment the film was pitched.

Sadly the Transformers film have gotten so formulaic that you can just about predict the moment in the film when the villains become totally inept and when the big bad will die because a big bad has to die every film.

 

Are you referring to the moment when Sentinel cuts off Optimus's arm or the moment when Lockdown pins him to a wall with a sword? If we're talking formulaic you might as well throw in every other blockbuster while you're at it aside from revenge every last fight against the villain has Optimus either almost lose or just actually lose, right real inept. Quit judging these movies differently the more beloved ones are no different and deep down you know it and soon not today but soon I'm going to prove it.

 

Why are we comparing transformers to saving Ryan how does that even make sense? If you can apply that predictable logic to transformers couldn't you apply it to well almost every super hero and comic book movie not all of them but certainly most of them and no comparison meant but you could definitely apply that logic to Marvel too Star Wars you can apply it to most popcorn movies so why once again is only transformers hit for it?

 

Mmmmm. Thought I smelled discourse.

 

I agree - it seems way too many films these days just immediately raise the stakes to the point the protaganist(s) needs to stop the antagonist(s) from essentially killing all of humanity.

Likewise, most of the big action films in recent years that are generally spoken of positively all have final stakes that are considerably less grandiose in comparison. Ant Man is a great example because if Cross actually achieved all his goals...he would just be another arms merchant to HYDRA. He works as a great villain as a result because you'd have to be absolutely morally bankrupt to knowingly sell bleeding edge technology like the Yellow Jacket/Pym Particle to modern day Nazis. Hell, going back to the first Captain America film, they literally say Red Skull thinks Hitler isn't extreme enough in his policies of mass murdering people, but while a Red Skull victory probably would ensure at minimum 50% of the entire world would be dead by his hands, he actually never would go to the point of killing everybody - he just wants a good ol' conquest of the world, not blow it the fuck up with him still on it.

 

When RotF had just come out, a coworker of mine (who is black) was raving to me about how much he loved the movie. The twins were his favorite part.

Me: People are saying online though that they're a racist stereotype.
Him: I bet those people are white.
Me: As far as I know...
Him: That's what I thought. They're just fun, people shouldn't overthink it.

Not trying to change anyone's opinion. I just thought it was a fun anecdote on the subject.

 

Well to get back on topic, the argument I don't understand is people who hate how Optimus Prime isn't like his G1 counterpart. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Optimus isn't portrayed poorly in the films, as I stated before while his actions in AOE are reasonable, I think they over did the whole "I'll kill you!" stuff.

Anyways what I mean by that is that I don't get people that hate Movie Optimus for being nothing like G1 Optimus... yet I barely hear any complaints concerning Animated Optimus who just like Movie Optimus was very different from his G1 portrayal. I have no problem to people that don't like Movie Optimus' portrayal but only if they have other reasons besides the "He's different!" excuse.

 

Re-cleaned.

Respect the OP and keep the thread on topic.

Not saying the off-topic discussions aren't worth having- this thread just isn't the place for them.

 

Also, you could make a point that having Ultron threaten to wipe out all of humanity lessens the eventual impact of Thanos putting the entire galaxy at risk in the upcoming Infinity Gauntlet film duology. While I wasn't as disappointed by AoU as most fanboys seemed to be, it didn't have the impact Avengers 1 did. I think even Marvel's studio heads knew there was no way they could match the impact of the biggest super hero team-up film to date.

That said, Transformers' stakes have always been high: a massive civil war between alien robots that's spilled over onto Earth. And of course, every movie has the threat of an extinction level event with 'cons basically trying to kill humanity off.

 

I can't wait till filming starts so people can stop derailing every other thread.  
Anyway...

This. 100% this.

I don't get why people think characters need to remain the exact same throughout different continuities. That sounds boring to me, lol. Bayverse is one of my favorite versions of Optimus because he's so damn unpredictable. Call it inconsistent characterization, bad writing, whatever...I don't care. I love me a flawed, stone-cold Optimus Prime that will say things like "Give me your face" out of nowhere.  

 

It's probably the voice. Movie Optimus had G1 Prime's voice, so the comparison is bound to be made.

 

And i agree wholeheartedly. What's the point of new fiction if the characters are gonna be the same and do the same things over and over.
Might as well have reruns of the G1 cartoon till all are one.