Except for the fact that many have argued why they see these as respectable films and have found plenty of depth to be found the problem is most people here just dismiss it and say yeah right it's Bay or Kruger's an idiot no way he could think of that.

Basically we state things and you ignore them stating that there's no way any meaningful depth or message in the film is anything but accidental because naturally it's Bay. This thread further proves this something that proves Bay has done good and it still turns into a Bay sucks thread.

This is very annoying because while I will certainly admit Bay has his flaws in certain areas the as they are called haters (though I hate that term) refuse to acknowledge anything positive about him. It really is a one sided conversation because so many people here refuse to admit that Bay is capable of anything good.

 

Yes Lord Tron, lots of very good, thoughtful, interesting and well researched arguments have been put forward in defence of these movies, to show how they are good and respectable movies.

And yet still, they aren't.

 

Except my point was clear and it does?

Do you speak English?

I believe I was fairly clear and succinct.

Why don't YOU go ahead and ditch your failing attempts at pithy, bullshit, ridiculous replies and INSTEAD contribute something worthwhile for a change? Perhaps THEN you'll finally either stop needlessly derailing interesting conversations with your inability to understand well-constructed points or else POSSIBLY even ask a pertinent question and learn something. Who knows! Anything's possible.

 

You DO realize that what "whiny complainers" want and what "biggest budget, highest profile media" require are generally two INHERENTLY INCOMPATIBLE concepts...right?!?

 

Sooo...Dorothy's journey to The Wizard of Oz in The Wizard of Oz IS NOT comparable to Sam's journey to the Transformers in Transformers for WAT reason, exactly?!? With one movie you already know some girl is gonna meet a wizard and with another you already know some boy's gonna meet a robot. This isn't exactly apples and oranges here, ffs.

And DID one movie actually mislead its audience relative to the other?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNugTWHnSfw​

Yeahhhh, they only say the equivalent of "Transformers" like A HUNDRED GODDAMNED TIMES, lolfail.

Pretty sure the trailers focused on Dorothy's journey AT LEAST as much as Sam's.

Oh, and WOW...a weak-ass (nonsense!) bullshit Strawman Argument supports YOUR point. Color me shocked!

If someone's criticizing Transformers for not featuring the Transformers enough when they're the title characters then they need to STFU and go watch Alien.

The fact that one's structured as a shadowy horror movie and the other features the "monsters" in full daylight for EASILY ten times as much screentime (at least!) really isn't supporting YOUR point, fwiw.

END OF.

G1 was 100% built around Transformers interaction with humans.

I mean, firstly, there's the toys themselves. But I'll admit that's kinda meta.

Then there's the fact that the Transformers were given alt. modes to disguise themselves amongst contemporary human culture.

The comic books AND cartoon BOTH centered around Transformers interacting with the Witwickys.

Spike and/or Buster BOTH essentially BECAME Transformers in the comic. They even made Buster the brains of Fortress Maximus! Don't even get me STARTED on Headmasters, Targetmasters, Powermasters, Pretenders, etc.

Even Spike's son Daniel basically transformed in his exo-suit and had a questionable interspecies, quasi-statutory romantic subplot with Arcee, ffs. (pun intended)

There are A MILLION other examples, but OKAY...it was ALL about "the freakin' robots," lol.

THAT must be why the Autobots almost ALWAYS win by cooperating with humans. Why "More than Meets the Eye" was structured around Spike's journal writings. Why Buster saved the Matrix. Why Sparkplug saved the Autobots by sabotaging the fuel of the Decepticons.

Go on, tell me more.

 

OMFG THANK YOU.

Just for the record, I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate my point that HOLY FUCK the Transformers movies feature their titular characters WAY MORE than equivalent films with FAR CHEAPER effects.

Once again, people need to THINK ABOUT THAT and STFU.

YUP.

SITUATION = NORMAL.

 

HEY, HERE'S A THOUGHT FOR EVERYONE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsbpyDlz25k

NOLAN & CAMERON
BOTH LOVE MICHAEL BAY
OMFG STFU
-____-
​

 

These blind Baylove conversations you and your inner circle have wouldn't be so easy to derail if they weren't based largely in such utter bull shit.

Now about the point of the Aliens screentime in the Alien movie, a movie about space travellers finding a stalky alien, and Transformers screentime, in a movie about Transformers landing on earth, I know you don't really believe that it's comparable, because only a fucking idiot would, and I'm sure you're not.

 

Ahem, moving this discussion back to the video, I have to agree with most of those points. I do believe that, if nothing else, Bay is a master of action scenes. DOTM is the only time I've been completely let down by the action in one of his films. However, #2 is exactly why my respect for him is limited and begrudgingly given. He refuses to evolve. There is absolutely no reason why an action film for teens can't have a good story. Also, it was almost as soon as I became a teen that I started seeing the flaws in his films, funnily enough.

As a side note, I didn't know that he launched the careers of many of those actors or that both stars of Bad Boys being black was a big deal at the time. If that's true, I guess it kinda debunks the idea that he's purposefully racist, which I've always had my doubts about, anyway.

 

There's no denying the hate for Bay but the guy is still amazing as I look into his career. I mean so many film directors such as David Gordon Green, Neil Blomkamp, Todd Phillips, Marc Webb, Barry Sonenfeld, Joss Whedon, Nicolas Winding Refn, Guillermo Del Toro, JJ Abrams and Jon Favreau respect him or are influenced by his work.

Here's what Nicholas Winding Refn had to say (director of Drive (which is an intriguing film by the way)
"Only God Forgives" Director Nicolas Winding Refn On The Creative Freedom That Comes With Making Divisive Art | Co.Create | creativity + culture + commerce
"I’m a huge Michael Bay fan," Refn declares, perhaps in jest, perhaps not. "I think The Rock is a really well-conceived film. I think technically, it’s incredibly inspiring. Those Transformers movies are just incredible. I have a lot of respect for Michael Bay."


Here's Neil Blomkamp:
Blomkamp has a more measured take: “It’s not just blowing stuff up,” he says. “I like the way he composes scenes and action. He’s inspiring.” (Turns out Blomkamp is a longtime Bay fanboy; when he was 19, he made a failed pilgrimage to LA to meet the man.)
Elysium's Director Thinks His Hellish Paradise Is Our Future. Let's Hope He's Wrong | WIRED


Marc Webb (it's not just the ASM series)
He's a brilliant visualist who does something very few people in the world can do. In this film, there is a spectacle to things I want to embrace. If that's used in service of creating drama for that character, and exploring a physical or emotional dilemma, then it feels great.
Marc Webb Talks With Rolling Stone On THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2: 'I Want The Audience To Be *Thwipping* Thrilled'

‘Chef’s’ Jon Favreau: ‘I Shoot Food the Way Michael Bay Shoots Women in Bikinis’Chef’s’ Jon Favreau: ‘I Shoot Food the Way Michael Bay Shoots Women in Bikinis’
He can help directors shoot appealing shots.

And a final article sample:
David Gordon Green (who has directed Joe, which brought Nicholas Cage's career back to life)
David Gordon Green Defends Michael Bay

So overall, personally I'm glad I'm hesistant in hating Bay because I must admit the first Transformers introduced to me into the world of film. So thanks for that. Hell Jeremy Jahns and Nostalgia Critic would not have existed on Youtube or Blip(for that matter) if it weren't for him, so I guess he's a necessary 'sin' to our entertainment system?

Maybe someone could ask Jeannine Basinger how was Bay at film school. So yeah there's my input to this thread....

Also I have to say I don't go around hating any specific director cause they all have their potential somewhere. Yeah that even applies to the really bad ones like Uwe Boll too. Hell look at how people have responded to M Night Shymalan's The Visit and how it compares to the other recent films he made.

 

I don't care for Michael Bay's films as a whole but I do appreciate what he has done for the franchise. His films aren't the end all and be all of TF, luckily, there is lots of other stuff out there. If it wasn't for Bayformers, we wouldn't have TF Prime, which was my favourite TF cartoon ever. Every cloud has a silver lining  

I do agree with him when he called out Hugo Weaving on his whining, however.

 

Just watched the video.
yeeeah....
kinda....
Some qualities, but no great movies! hehehe
Just my opinion.

 

It would be nice if Bay was the only problem because replace one guy and things would get better.

But Bay only seems like one cog in the machinery of bad. Paramount doesn't have a very good track record with taking something people liked somewhere else and turning it into films that almost everyone can love. GI Joe is a live action mess. Trekkies weren't happy with the pale rip off of Wraith of Khan that into Darkness was. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie didn't win over everyone. The new Terminator movie turned off lots of Terminator fans. About the only bright spot is Mission Impossible fans can say MI5 was pretty damn good.

The producers haven't been old fan friendly either so even if Bay said "screw you guys I'm going home" we'd still be stuck with producers with a hostile attitude towards old fans.

It would take more than just a shift in directors to be able to build up any sort of hope.

To find a production team looking out for old fans you have to go to some other studio because Paramount is not an old fan friendly studio. They want the pop culture names but it seems like they would love to get those names without any old fans attached to it. Even when other studios take in large domestic hauls aiming films at old and new fans Paramount seems dead set on new fans only.

 

If you feel like you have to defend Michael Bay, then on some level you must realize something is wrong. You can give him a pass for the first couple movies, and I think that is pretty fair. You can give people all the eye candy they want, and still create a great story with good dialogue. He is just doing Fast and Furious with Robots, and he is gonna keep doing it til the money flow slows down. The business side of things always wins.

 

Did we really need all the drug and sexual references in Transformers movies? All of them should have been cut and never shown.

That was okay. That was the only one that should have been kept.

 

I refuse to have any respect for a director who says he can put out whatever he wants because the "haters" will see it anyway.

 

Key point that's lost here. You hold your personal opinion as some type of empirical irrefutable fact.

  Same as all the movie hate threads, plenty of buckets of bullshit as fact and smarmy elitist "I know better than you" in those too.

The only thing I got out of that was the "fandoms" for each movie didn't like the movies. That's pretty common and expected, if nothing else, the "fandoms" are consistent. No studio should EVER have pleasing a "fandom" as any sort of goal because it isn't attainable. As far as the movies, you mentioned...I loved both the star trek movies, EVERY one of the terminator movies, disliked the joe and turtle movies.

I find it's the people that hate the movies that should realize something's wrong if they feel the need to "debunk" any one's optimism about the movie-verse, and yet here it is. There cannot even be ONE SINGLE THREAD saying positive things about the movies/bay without the SAME people expressing SAME opinions ad nauseam.

 

While you can't please every last fan I'm going to disagree that a studio can't please the fandom.

Go around a convention that covers lots of fandoms and ask people how they feel about different films. GI Joe fans like to joke "what movie" while Batman fans will talk your ear off about how much they loved The Dark Knight. Go around long enough and you can find a Batman fan that hates the film but for the most part Batman fans loved the Dark Knight.

I don't find fandoms to be consistent at all. Some of them are overwhelming happy with how studios strike the balance between them and the new people. Some fandoms are split pretty much down the middle where half the fans are happy with what the studio is doing while half are upset where the studio is going with it. Then you have fandoms where almost all the fans feel like they got the bad end of things.

It think pleasing fans can be a good goal for studios. Jurassic World hauled in $650 million domestically by going hey let's try to please that Jurassic Park fan base. Star Wars is looking at a huge haul and part of building that excitement has been going hey old fans look Han and Chewie. Deadpool generated lots of positive buzz by playing up fan boy hopes with something that looks more comic book than Wolverine Origins.

 

The ones who deserve respect are the creative teams behind the comics, various animated series, and heck even the toy manufacturers, who will never get the recognition they deserve.

 

I honestly don't see anything JP new world did to "cater to the fandom" If anything the movie was more of the same. If you liked JP you probably liked it. If you hate JP you probably left feeling the same.

Star wars fandom is just as un-pleasable as the transformers fandom. Inter- strife about old trilogy vs new trilogy, expanded universe, clone wars, rebels, etc. The same exact BS here is there, and the only thing that is for certain, is that these same BS circular arguments that have been around here since 07 will start anew in Dec.

Deapool is the new "hip" pop culure icon. People are going to flock to it off that alone, but yeah being closer to the comic does seem like a goal so far.

Fandoms are consistent in this, There are ALWAYS groups of persons that feel the need to feel superior from their contemporaries in the same fandom. Transformers has

G1 vs movie-verse/beast wars/armada trilogy/etc
MISB vs openers
Takara vs Hasbro
MP vs everything else
Third Party vs everything else
IDW vs everything else

Notice a theme here? In each one of those, a group of persons that likes whatever thing feels the need to lord it over other persons, and treat them as their tastes are inferior.

Every other fandom has that same crap, like 60s Joes vs 80s Joes vs ME, o-ring vs ME sculpts.

Turtles has comic verse vs 90s turtles vs all the different iterations since then.

Power Rangers has Super Sentai vs 90s vs speed/turbo/ninja etc...

Batman is no different, animated series vs newer ones, debate on the movies/ disagreements over the new gotham series, etc...And I have heard many a person complain about the new movies being "too dark" so yeah...thats not as cut and dry as you tried to make it either.

Fandoms are consistent in the ubiquitous mentality of certain persons in whatever fandom "knowing better than others" and dismissal of persons that don't agree. I have yet to see this overly happy shangra la fandom that agrees on anything that you speak of, and that's between marvel universe, DC universe, terminator, heman, gi joe, turtles, star wars, robotech/macross, gi joe...thats just off the top of my head.

Oh yeah, then there's terminators and aliens, both of which, the vocal majority of their "fandoms" tend to think reached their height at part II and everything else after sucked. What does that have in common with EVERY OTHER fandom I mentioned? Why person's holding 20+ yeah old versions close to their bosoms of course.

 

This is quite possibly one of the stupidest fucking comparisons I've ever seen regarding the Transformers films.

And I like the films. Hell, ROTF is my favorite in the franchise.

Also, pro tip: Large, bold font doesn't make your point any more valid.

 

well in a way its sort of true, the films keep getting hated, yet people still go to see it (as seen by the fact DOTM and AOE both made billions, despite mixed to negative receptions, while other films that are hated, flops, like Fantastic Four)

 

Still killin' it!