Game of Thrones - A Song of Ice and Fire for TV!

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by adamthered, Mar 3, 2010.

  1. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Posts:
    6,876
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Likes:
    +3,414
    Ebay:
    Flickr:
    Who is this Randall you speak of? :) 
     
  2. Kraken

    Kraken Is a vegiesaurus, Lex. Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Posts:
    7,220
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +41
    It's Ramsey's evil twin, obviously ;) 
     
  3. Digilaut

    Digilaut Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Posts:
    11,512
    News Credits:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +1,633
    I still follow this show, and I quite enjoy it, but I do feel it's been 'waning' for a while now.

    I have not read a single one of the books (boooo! Sorry!), so I can't compare, but I do feel season 4 and 5 (so far) just haven't been up to snuff.
    It is as if the plots and intrigues between characters have gotten much simpler and more boring. Characters die but they more and more seem to leave a void behind, rather than seeing their spots filled with new interesting characters (or old ones you hated blossom into likable, human characters).

    Again, not sure if such is the case for the books as well, just throwing my two cents about the show out there. And I'm not sure..is that just me? Am I, after 4 1/2 seasons just growing tired of it all, or is there really a slight dip here?

    One thing I am sort of bummed about - I once read
    in a wiki that in the books Lady Catelyn gets resurrected and goes on a revenge spree...that would have been awesome,and they even sort of set it up as they included the Brotherhood without Banners and their leader who keeps getting resurrected. So sorry that they didn't include that in the show (so far). That sounded hella cool.


    I don't feel Sansa getting raped was any deviation from what they have been doing so far, but again, I haven't read the books so I don't know if the writers went out of their way to introduce this for this character, rather than adapt this.
    Obviously, it was absolutely awful. In the same way that basically every horrible thing happening to characters in this show has been absolutely awful. I don't dislike Sansa as some of you seem to here :lol  , I think she's a perfectly valid character.

    Let me get that clear: I absolutely despise depiction of rape in a fictional work, especially when it's simply used for shock value (and really, how could it be used for anything else but
    ). It's one of my main reasons why I have almost completely dropped support for comic writer Mark Miller - whose work I have generally enjoyed, until I found a completely appalling pattern of rape as a tool.
    Having said that: the world of Westeros has been set up as this truly despicable medieval place from day one - and it would be truly hypocritical of me to suddenly be up in arms about is now that it's happening to Sansa - despite the fact it's been happening to countless background characters, has this exact same thing not happened to Daenerys in season 1?


    But god..I really, really wish Sansa or Theon would've shanked that rotten Ramsay right there. Really thought, and hoped, that it would be Theon snapping out of it and taking action. :(  :(  :( 
     
  4. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Posts:
    6,876
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Likes:
    +3,414
    Ebay:
    Flickr:
    I had the same thought. Why go to all the trouble of introducing the BHWB and Thoros then drop it?
     
  5. Kraken

    Kraken Is a vegiesaurus, Lex. Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Posts:
    7,220
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +41
    Things change, maybe they wanted to do that storyline when they introduced the Brotherhood, but felt that it would be too much, or maybe they're saving it for next season.
     
  6. Killamarshan

    Killamarshan Iacon Tourist

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Posts:
    2,067
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Location:
    Derbyshire
    Likes:
    +1,171
    The Sansa arc does seem to have turned many fans away from the show, and for understandable reasons. themarysue.com has cut ties and won't be featuring GoT in the future.

    I'm presuming with the knowledge that you have you've read the books. I'm not trying to be clever with this question I'm just curious as to why you feel the show is more objectionable than GRRM's writing? Whilst the books create a cohesive and immersive world, sexual abuse/violence/torture is a consistent and ever present trope. Some of it makes for tough reading and I know I've had to have time outs.
     
  7. WhiteMocha

    WhiteMocha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Posts:
    12,498
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Likes:
    +9,875
    Not saying that the Sansa scene wasn't awful and upsetting (as it was intended to be), but I admit being puzzled at the people leaving the show because of it. This is a show that has featured just about every horrific thing humans can do to one another (including what is still the #1 most upsetting thing for me, an infant killed with a knife while her mother watches). Not to mention any number of brutally (and graphically) murdered men, women, and children. I don't get why this scene would be the straw that broke the camel's back for people, when they've already endured so much horror up till now in the show. The only thing I can come up with is that this was a more relatable horrific experience, something that hits close to home for a lot of people, while the previous horrific events are so far removed from our lives (thankfully) that they become more abstract and palatable.

    I don't blame anyone for ditching the show, but given everything that has happened in it up till now, I do wonder why it took them this long.
     
  8. DrGrim

    DrGrim OBEY

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Posts:
    4,457
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Location:
    Ohio
    Likes:
    +380
    Ebay:
    Facebook:
    Yeah, the infant killing this was awful. I have a hard time watching anything where children are victimized.
     
  9. femmebotfangirl

    femmebotfangirl Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Posts:
    2,712
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Likes:
    +24
    That's a fair question, also one with a really complicated answer that I've been thinking how to answer without writing an essay.

    Basically the show is using rape gratuitously as a way to develop male characters and further their story arc, with little no emphasis on the cost to the actual victim.
    The books don't do that. Hell the show has even managed to turn two consensual sex scenes in the book into rape scenes, they threw in an attempted rape on Sansa in season two I think? And they have been planning this latest scene since season two as well. That is all just fucked up.

    GRRM does get some criticism for the levels of violence in his book too, but I've never felt the sexual violence was gratuitous or there just to make men sad/push them into action. For whatever faults his writing may have he gets more right than he gets wrong and he gives us a diverse cast of women who have agency or their lack of agency is highlighted as a bad thing and so on. That's why more than half his fans are apparently women.

    Exactly. That's actually a good way of putting it. Rape is relatable, torture, murder, extreme violence are not because the threat of those things has no impact on my daily life, except as an extension of potentially being raped. I don't want to get onto the real life issues again but this is an important point for context.
     
  10. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Posts:
    38,682
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +17,713
    Ebay:
    Facebook:
    Twitter:
    Instagram:
    YouTube (Legacy):
    I fail to see why it matters if a story is furthered by murder or rape. Hell, Danyrus fed an innocent man to a dragon last week, but no one batted an eye over it. Suddenly a girl gets raped off-screen and it is an issue?

    I don't get it. People are all like:

    "OMG, he killed a baby, that is so horrifying. THIS SHOW IS FREAKING AWESOME AND EDGY!!!"

    but then:

    "OMG, someone got raped, that is so horrifying. THE SHOW IS RUINED!!!"


    "OMG, he was castrated, that was awesome!!"

    "OMG, she was raped, this is atrocious!!"


    Why is one okay but not the other?
     
  11. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Posts:
    6,876
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Likes:
    +3,414
    Ebay:
    Flickr:
    Sure in the books the attempted rape on Sansa didn't happen. Instead Lollys Stokeworth (Brom's intended) was gang raped by ~100 men. Is that better?
     
  12. femmebotfangirl

    femmebotfangirl Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Posts:
    2,712
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Likes:
    +24
    Last time I checked Lollys wasn't erased from the show, her entire story arc discarded EXCEPT the rape scene which was forced on another female character just so the showrunners could use it as a cheap shock tactic to make the audience feel sorry for a fucking male character instead of the rape victim.
     
  13. Digilaut

    Digilaut Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Posts:
    11,512
    News Credits:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +1,633
    Just because Theon has been reduced to a husk of a man, and that the audience pities him, doesn't suddenly negate or outweigh the trauma inflicted upon Sansa.

    Mind you, I don't say that to justify whatever decision the creators made. I heard similar outrage about the scene where Jaimie rapes Cersei on their son's coffin, so apparently that was changed by the show's creators to add cheap shock - but again, I am unaware of what exactly happens in the books in this situation.

    All I can say is, as a person who just watches the show: I feel sorry for Theon, but I feel much much much much much more sorry for Sansa. I don't feel there's an 'instead' when it comes to who is made the victim, but I'm perfectly fine with not focusing the camera on her getting raped, thank you very much.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  14. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Posts:
    6,876
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Likes:
    +3,414
    Ebay:
    Flickr:
    ??? I felt a hell of a lot more for Sansa then I did for Theon. And I think most everybody else did, too.
     
  15. ABH1979

    ABH1979 Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Posts:
    14,981
    Trophy Points:
    402
    Location:
    Lone ★ State
    Likes:
    +7,098
    Well, at least you admit the failure is on your end.

    Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't mean it won't bother others.

    Rape is a real thing, while being eaten by dragons, to my knowledge, is not.

    I'm certainly not going to give up on the show, though.
     
  16. femmebotfangirl

    femmebotfangirl Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2014
    Posts:
    2,712
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Likes:
    +24
    Except there was none of that in the scene. If Sansa wasn't going to be the focus of her own rape scene, there shouldn't have been a rape scene. All we saw was Theons reaction, the whole rape scene was built around him and that was the problem.

    Yes, and the way they changed Drogo asking consent from Daenerys on their wedding night into a joke. This is the trouble, the show has turned two consensual sexual encounters into rape scenes, added an unnecessary attempted rape of Sansa and then forced an unnecessary into Sansa's story in a way where it is more about Theon than Sansa.


    I feel sorry for Sansa too, but the scene was still constructed to make Theon the focus, it was his anguish, his pain, his face we saw, the scene was about his reaction to the rape not the rape itself. This is far too common in story telling, break the woman to spur the man into action, or make the viewer feel sorry for him.
    Also between this and the huge changes to Sansa's story in the show everything seems contrived to have put her in this situation and the showrunners said they were planning it since season 2 so the whole thing is just revolting.

    Anyway, this is why I and many other people found this scene extremely badly handled and completely unnecessary. If you (not you specifically Digilaut) didn't that's your prerogative but it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong or overreacting. Especially not women.

    I hated it, and it is just the latest in a long line of massive disappointments with season 5 and I'm going to stop thinking about it and posting about it because it's just depressing to see one of my favourite tv shows turn into this garbage. If you're still watching it and enjoying it, I'm happy for you, honestly. But I'm not. I thought season 4 was the best yet despite a few problems, butseason 5 isn't just bad by GoT standards its bad by any measure in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  17. Thenames9

    Thenames9 D-d-d-d-duel!

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Posts:
    5,840
    News Credits:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Likes:
    +58
    I think the show would have received more controversy if they showed the explicit scene of Ramsay/Sansa than the Theon reaction.
     
  18. Starscreamownz

    Starscreamownz Air Commander

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Posts:
    3,800
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +12
    Or used the book version.

    Or if Theon was a woman and this was that scene in Season 3 where he's nearly sodomized by a gang of Bolton men. He's a guy though so it's ok to ignore and forget.
     
  19. Haloid1177

    Haloid1177 Hey, That's Pretty Good

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Posts:
    30,190
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    Salt Mounds
    Likes:
    +1,037
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    Because violence that is pretty much never going to happen is equivalent to violence that occurs on a daily basis.

    Great comparison.
     
  20. Mark

    Mark Just here for the toys

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Posts:
    6,876
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Likes:
    +3,414
    Ebay:
    Flickr:
    Right there are still limits to what they can show even on HBO.