I dunno about that... it's an important artifact, but as Optimus said in the Death of Optimus Prime, seeing it drained & lifeless is something nobody should've had to witness. To many of the Autobots, if not the NAILs, it'd be a symbol of loss... something they thought was eternal, now depleted. To the 'Cons, it might be another kinda symbol altogether... but ultimately, it's a hunk of crystal with a star-map in it and not much more than an ornament for a shelf. Since they weren't going on the quest, there wasn't much use for it, which is why I think it'll be given to/taken by some Lost Light folk if they meet up during Dark Cybertron.

 

I could get behind that. I'm kind of tired of the tendency to treat them all like cute and cuddly lil' kids and comic relief dwarves.

Sorry to keep you hangin' dude.  

To be fair, Ratchet just got him back up and running after his legs got blown off. Cybercrosis seems to be a spark problem, and probably wouldn't show up during a mechanical check-up. Also, the fact that he had serious transforming issues since the first issues, and it was revealed that his inner energon was curdled (and hinted at as early as the bomb aftermath)... both of these things lay the groundwork for the eventual reveal of his illness. AND... when is a terminal disease NOT "the universe being an asshole"? Terminal diseases never pop up when you're ready for them. That's kind of the kicker of it. Such is life. I think you're asking for a lot of narrative collusion to make "terminal illness" a lot less of an issue than it should be.

However, I will grant you this: I think his illness should have been revealed earlier. In the immediate aftermath of Overlord, it just felt too abrupt. The promise of finding Luna and sudden hope of a possible cure came waaaaay too quickly on the heels of him first discovering his ailment. It all just dovetailed a bit too neatly, and made the whole "Tailgate is ill" thing feel too constrained to the context of this single "Into the Light" plot arc. Truth be told, that's one of the reasons I didn't care for the cybercrosis plot twist at all... but the way events played out (and the way they were immediately reversed) convinced me that at that moment, that was the time to kill Tailgate and make it matter.

What you're talking about there is called dramatic pathos, and it's generally a good thing in storytelling. What I liked about learning that most of his life was spent on the Lost Light was not how sad it made his death (though that's a bonus), but how it suddenly cast everything that happened since we met him into a different light... not only for the readers, but for other characters like Cyclonus as well. That's a good twist, because it doesn't just trigger pathos, but also causes us to review the story up till now with fresh eyes.

As I said above, I agree with you on that point. The discovery had to come earlier, so we'd have time to see him coping with with this news, before the series suddenly became The Quest to Cure Cybercrosis.

I find this uncharacteristic of you. This has never been a "funny book". Sure, there's been humour, but also a tendency for things to turn horribly ugly or tragic at the drop of a hat. This is a dark series, despite appearances. Your response here seems to be a sort of invalidation of tragedy as a legitimate mode of fiction... because it would have made you personally feel bad.

I know what you mean, to a degree. Some series spiral into a depressing, fatalistic pit of despair by the end, and that nihilism can feel too arbitrary. In this case though, the series was maybe in danger of LOSING its edge, it's ability to hit those sombre notes. Death was losing its impact. Or... well... perhaps I should say that it has. Tailgate lived, after all.

I certainly didn't need Ambus to survive... but in terms of how the scene played out, Tailgate's death would have been more dramatically potent and emotionally resonant. With Ambus it was more of a "well, it feels like we hardly knew ya, and now your head is pulp" shock death.

Couldn't possibly disagree with you more. Wash's death was a parting fuckyou, a "well, the series is dead now, so I don't need the comic-relief guy anymore, so how about I kill him to add some feels to the end of my movie". It was an arbitrary mechanic, which I found to be neither poignant, nor affecting other than in the "awww, they're sad he's dead" sense. It was cheap because Whedon didn't have to deal with any of those consequences, or write the stories that came after. The series wouldn't have to go on without him. It didn't make me ponder the effect of this death on the crew, the way Tailgate's death would have hovered over Cyclonus from this point onward. In My Humble Opinion, naturally.

Whoa... dude, are you sure you don't want to qualify that just a little bit? I think that's a bit of an overstatement. Holy crap. Joss Whedon killed a fun character because everybody likes him, because it's a shortcut to emotional weight. Like he always does. I like Joss. I really do. But c'mon... the man has his foibles and tropes. His use of death as a dramatic device is NOT exactly nuanced or artful. When he killed Agent Coulson in Avengers, it was practically self-parody.

Well, that was a bit dumb too. The whole "hey, this med lab is awesome, so we can cure 5 diseases over lunch" hanging plot device was pretty absurd.

Pipes, you mean. Oh, and Rewind, sort of indirectly. Yeah, this is the problem. Everybody was quaking in their boots over a sensationalist mass kill-off... but then in the aftermath, it was sort of like... oh... that was actually a bit light on the carnage. Roberts has somehow earned this rep as a character killer (perhaps from Wreckers), but has been pretty conservative in MTMTE when it comes down to it... almost TOO conservative, considering his penchant for shock violence. Thankfully, so far most of the death has been redshirts and a few strategically meaningful deaths. For me, Tailgate was one of those.

That said, for the brief moment before passing my eyes to the next page, I was dwelling on that shot of Whirl's claw disappearing into the slag, and thinking "Huh. Well I guess we all saw that coming." I even had to chuckle a bit, even though I would miss the hell out of him. I was relieved, and chuckled again when I found out it was all Cyclonus' morbid fantasy... but part of me was a bit disappointed to see this resolved. In my mind, Whirl should never completely "redeem" himself. He needs to be a total scumbag into perpetuity. His constant attempts to make peace with Cyclonus started to feel a bit false to me. Part of me wanted to see him try a few more times to kill Cyclonus in underhanded ways, and just generally keep that barely-contained Spy-vs-Spy dynamic going in the background on the Lost Light.  

Wait! Did they give him a normal face? Did I miss that??? That sucks.

There is that. But I'm still not ready for a kinder, cuddlier Cyclonus.

I'm not really expecting this to develop into anything. Chromedome is already perfectly accustomed to blaming himself for that kind of thing. I don't see him transferring that onto Cyclonus.

Oh, it's not hyperbole. It might not be what you meant, but it's more or less what you said.

No argument there. If I daresay, I don't think anyone in this forum has been as vocal or consistent in both my critiques AND my soaring praise of James Roberts. He is, in my opinion, the best writer the franchise has ever had, and pretty much approaches this fiction (and the universe that goes with it) as a man after my own heart.

That said, I think sometimes he still disappoints. I don't think it's out of line to say so.

Hey. I DO agree with that. But that doesn't obviate criticism entirely.

It shouldn't. Also, I don't think you'll find anyone complaining "endlessly" about Roberts on this forum. What you see as "endless" is actually really the smallest kernel of critical attention, of examination, of reflection...

Is that maybe because it makes you feel like somehow the criticism reflects on YOU. The stuff you love is judged as being not quite adequate by others, so suddenly you feel like you're being judged for not seeing it, and it makes you defensive. Suddenly the fact that you like it is just not enough. So then it "ruins" your experience.

I realize that not everybody likes to dissect the things they love. I'm an artist, a filmmaker and now an academic. IT IS WHAT I DO. I can't help but see how Form and Content come together, and the way they interact. For me, deconstructing and intellectualizing and evaluating these things are the most intrinsic and satisfying ways to absorb culture... a full, immersed, and critically informed experience.

So yeah. Some people like analyzing James Joyce. That's how I like my giant alien robots. I'm classy like that.  

And I've said this many times... do I love flawed things? Yes. Yes I totally do. But I don't pretend they are perfect. I still see and recognize those flaws. Do I separate my affective enjoyment of things from my critical evaluations? Absolutely, whenever possible. Discussing things on this level speaks to the very building blocks of understanding and appreciating the form. For me, this is the FULLEST, most gratifying way to enjoy something... not by turning a blind eye.

See, you seem to think so, but I don't think so. I love the book. But I also like it to be consistently great, or to live up to its own promise. When it doesn't, I'll talk about why I feel that way, and hopefully some others here will also be able to discuss that. That's the nature of a forum. I'm sorry if that pollutes your environment dude, but c'mon... sunshine and roses all the time is a bit grating. I mean, do I complain about how incessant and unqualified praise ruins my forum experience? No. I think it's a bit sycophantic and intellectually lazy, but y'know... first world problems and all that.  

If you're comparing me, or ANYONE in this thread to Split Lip's relationship to the Prime forums, you're clearly not listening that hard. I'm not barging in here every month just to kick James Roberts in the balls and yank the emperor's clothes off. I've been singing the gospel since day one. The truth is, I challenge almost anyone in here to a Roberts Adoration steelcage match, and I will WIN. But it's tough love. I want Roberts to grow and be greater, not scuff his feet over the finish line. I will pit my stern, critical Cyclonus Faith against anyone's gushing, sycophantic, fanatical Star-Saber Faith any day of the week!  

Hm. Or maybe that's the red wine talking...  

That's fine. But don't tell people what to talk about here in the forums because it "ruins" your enjoyment of the fandom. That's whack, dude.  

Maybe, yeah... but I don't quite see it that way. First Aid feels compassion for everyone. I never felt like he had a particular bond with Ambulon. I think what angered him most... what triggered that rage... was not just Ambulon, but ALL the things Pharma had done, all the lives lost at Delphi, all the betrayal and murder... and in the end, seeing him treat it like a joke. What was most offensive to First Aid was the monumental callousness of Pharma contrasted to his own instinctive caring... it was so repulsive to look in that broken mirror and see something so abhorrent, he could only respond violently. I think it's less about Ambulon personally, and more the depth of Pharma's depravity that incensed First Aid.

Or that's how I feel it. It's like if you saw somebody torturing a dog on the street. You don't even know that dog, but what you see in that person is such pure evil and indifferent cruelty, that your first response would be anger... to cast it OUT!

If it were that simple, wouldn't they already have tried spark-jumping Tailgate to give him more time? I mean, they had half the Lost Light's scientific community working on this, and nobody tried a straight-up spark transfusion? Or giving him just enough of a boost to survive the treatment? Obviously the sword coupled Cyclonus' suddenly-according-to-Dai-Atlas fantastic supercharged Spark can do something that Transformers medical science has never seen before. I'd say that's a little "magical" and just a bit too convenient, no?

If Whirl hasn't done something to deserve a smackdown today, then just wait another day. Didn't Cyclonus call him a "walking atrocity"?  

I dunno. I definitely have my suspicions about working relationships like that, and what's considered "professional" protocol (as in not complaining about the company that puts food on your table). I kind of feel like it might have gone like this...

Hasbro: "We're really excited to announce we've just made a brand new figure in honour of Tailgate, our new fan-favourite character, thanks to YOUR comics!"

Roberts: "Oh. I'm killing him in the next story arc."

Hasbro: "...."

And really... that's giving Roberts the benefit of the doubt. If this story unfolded exactly as he intended (which we can pretty confidently say it did not), then I think it gives any criticism even more traction. And in the case of full creative control, I'd say the twist reprieve was handled even more awkwardly.

But isn't it just a bit funny how, without changing any of the art, and just switching some dialogue on the last page, you could have had Tailgate live OR die very easily. Kind of reminds me of how "Duke came out of his coma" at the end of the GI Joe movie.  

Well, a big part of that is just me and my fixation on those old bios. Blitzwing was a thug and a bully... not exactly "honourable warrior" material. In IDW it's true that he hasn't gotten much characterization... just a soldier really.

I think this is part of it. It's a bit alien for me to only look at story events, and not at the style and technique involved with their presentation. For me, execution is the difference between greatness and mediocrity. A weak idea expressed amazingly well becomes something that exceeds expectations. A great idea expressed weakly just becomes a missed opportunity. But it's not like that for everybody, obviously. Some people only see the "story", and everything else is just dressing, I guess.

Hahaha! Fair enough. I'm full of silly analogies lately, it seems. I do appreciate the effort!  

I hope not. I love what he does. I like to think that when he drops the ball, he kind of knows he dropped the ball... but it's good to know that his fans are sharp enough to see it too.

I think that liking or disliking doesn't necessarily have to figure that much into interpreting or evaluating stories. Obviously, stuff like this can be subjective, but that's why we discuss, right? To get at the guts of the matter, to share perspectives and to debate the finer points of things. I just find it sad when people find this threatening or too intrusive with something they like.

If everybody left it at that, there wouldn't be any discussions (or arguments). The fact is, I can come into a thread and say "well, I didn't like it, and this is why", and that could be the end of it. If someone replies with "I think you are totally wrong, and this is why", then the game is afoot. A lively debate can be its own reward, but it's kind of lame when the response becomes reduced to "stop being critical because it ruins my fun".  

zmog

 

All I gotta say is, poor First Aid. He's gonna be going through therapy for years, good thing the ship has Rung.

 

Zmog just laid an epic smackdown. I have received this too and it was well deserved on my part. Thanks Zmog for clearing up what are the good and bad parts of Roberts writing and taking them all together.

 

I come in here to find something interesting to read about the comic I enjoy. SMOG doesn't disappoint...

 

Read CS Lewis or GK Chesterton if you feel this way and you will become a Christian. Try and give a stab at Orthodoxy. You can tell that James Robert's is subtly influenced by Chesterton. Just saying. It speaks across the ages.

Given that I am Christian, I always look for Christological symbolism in fiction and Transformers is replete with it, but MTMTE really threw off the veil and gave us a direct connection.

Edit: For the record Christos doesn't mean god in Latin but is the transliteration of Christos from Greek which means the anointed one. Throughout the OT there were many anointed ones (David, the prophets) all the way up to THE anointed Jesus. The Hebrew word for this is Messiah. The Primes have always been anointed ones of Primus from the very beginning. Optimus and Rodimus have always been Christological figures in Transformers tradition. They are the unique chosen ones of God (Primus). They both suffer and bear the burdens of their people. And some also come back from the dead to lead victory against evil.

 

Haha! I'll pay you what I owe you for saying that later bud.  

To be fair, I think that post was only 10% smackdown. I have a pretty low smackdown-per-100-words concentration. Need to work on upping my average.

And on that note, I shall retire.  

zmog

 

To those confused about my 'ballsy' statement, I definitely meant at just how overt and in-your-face it was handled. There was nothing subtle about it - and I don't think it was a matter of miscommunication between writer and artist.

Let's get this straight, though: it does not bother me - at all.
But still, even if this is a comic (probably) geared towards older fans, I'm not exactly sure if such blatant imagery needs to be in what is essentially still a children's product - or at least, I never expected it would be.

I'm happy that it's not really a big deal. I'm also happy that apparently, no crazy pro or anti fanatics read Transformers comics and have used this issue to start some kind of outrage on Fox News, or worse.. in the Guardian!  

 

Why would they? The Matrix had the cross. So does a bajillion other films use Christ's story to make their point. Heck, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly has a cross used very similarly to MTMTE issue 21. It really does prove CS Lewis true whenever the story of the passion is used to make a point in a story.

 

This is how I saw it too. We as the audience didn't know much about Ambulon, but First Aid had worked in close quarters with him for a while. He specifically namedrops Ambulon when he's listing Pharma's crimes (as opposed to lumping him in with everyone else), which implies that he had some kind of personal value.

I interpreted that scene as another aspect of world building, where we get hints about the characters beyond what we're specifically shown. A character's death may not be meaningful to the reader, but it's potentially meaningful to the other characters. Even the reddest of redshirts have friends and loved ones. I'm sure that most of First Aid's rage was due to Pharma's overall scumbaggery, but it's possible that Ambulon's death may have been the tipping point.

Definitely agree! And I think that's evidence of a worthwhile piece of fiction. The fact that people want to pick apart every panel and every line of dialogue means that it matters to them, and it made them think. If a comic gets read and then tossed in a corner without a second thought, is it really an enjoyable comic? IMHO, wanting to discuss and debate every tiny thing is a sign of an engaging story.

TLDR: We pick because we care.  

There's a theory that Whirl's currently stripped down body may potentially be causing a variation of that...

Fans: "We want a MTMTE Whirl toy!"

Hasbro: "Ok, here's a half-assed version based almost entirely on the G1 guy."

Fans: "Oh...that's all right, I guess..."

Hasbro: "And now we might make them redesign the comic guy to fit that half-assed toy!"

Fans: "..."

 

Generations Whirl isn't half-assed, though, and it's ridiculous to claim it is. It's the complete opposite. It is a brilliant, thoughtfully designed and amazing upgrade to his G1 design. It even comes with his boatload of weapons and gear. It's almost identical to the original toy, only with better proportions and articulation. Basically what fans demand most classics figures should be.

Problem is, fans didn't want the G1 design for once. But figuring that it takes, I believe, about 18 months for a toy to go from conception to release, it's likely possible Whirl was being designed long before his popularity in MTMTE reached it's peak. Most probably Whirl was already on a list of potential updates, and thus during the design process, when he was just gaining in popularity, they figured tooling the head to homage this version may be appealing enough. Afterall, it's still Whirl, right? Well, now he's one of the breakout characters, and there's no way they're scrapping a Voyager class toy of what was until now an obscure go-to name for helicopter redecoes. Whirl just came out at the wrong time.

Also, I very much doubt Tailgate was spared for the sake of a Legends class figure. Afterall, it didn't work for Rewind.

 

It kind of mystifies me how some people are so upset about the lack of death this issue, specifically Tailgate's. I mean, you've got to ask yourself: What would, ultimately, be accomplished narratively if Tailgate died? And the only logical answer I can come up with is...not a whole heck of a lot that hasn't already been covered by Roberts' work already.

So, let's say Tailgate died. Right off the bat, it's pretty much a waste of two characters: both Tailgate and Cyclonus. Tailgate because, really, he hasn't done too much yet over the course of the series besides lie about his accomplishments, provide an in-universe voice for newbies that aren't familiar with the IDW continuity, and try to befriend Cyclonus. With him out of the picture, suddenly there's a void in the cast of characters that no one else can fill regarding the occasional much-needed exposition.

And as for Cyclonus, well, with Tailgate gone ol' Cyc has absolutely no more reason to even BE on the Lost Light anymore. Tailgate is the only one that Cyclonus has truly bonded with over the course of the series so far, and the only link he has to the Cybertron he once knew and loved. Tailgate is unique in that he's entirely untouched by the six million year war. He's an innocent and a good person, something Cyclonus himself admitted to in his fight with Star Saber, and however taciturn and irritable Cyclonus might be he still values those qualities.

Without Tailgate, Cyclonus is left off even worse than at the beginning of MTMTE. He's lost a second dear friend (the first being Scourge back in Chaos), he's lost the last remaining bit of the Golden Age, and I'm willing to bet that the only lesson he'd learn from the experience is to never, ever let anyone get close to him ever again. He loses all hope. Cyclonus becomes a character devoid of any more depth beyond angsting about the past and staring moodily into the distance, and would probably take the next opportunity to separate himself from the Lost Light and wander the galaxy alone.

Doesn't sound particularly interesting to me, and something that is so not worth killing of Tailgate for. With Tailgate alive, we get more opportunities for their interactions. We get Tailgate teaching Cyclonus to open up to others bit by bit, and Cyclonus educating Tailgate on life in general and to question the intentions of others. We get character growth and expansion so that Cyclonus isn't solely stuck as the "honourable loner" and Tailgate isn't just "the cute and innocent guy".

Mr. Roberts has said repeatedly that he only kills off characters for good reason. When there's nothing left of their story to tell, or at least there's some meaning behind it besides "people die sometimes". Killing off Tailgate would've been the lazy, repetitive thing to do.

Why repetitive? Because we've already had characters die in the series, and in other comics in this continuity that Robets has written/had a hand in writing. Two of them in the subplot RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE, even. Pipes died an unsung hero; one who had some adventures and made some friends (which is what he ultimately wanted out of his journey on the Lost Light), and his final act before his death is to ensure those friends have a chance to live. Rewind died in an admittedly somewhat sloppily paced/written way, but his death nonetheless had an impact on the narrative and a HUGE impact on Chromedome in particular. Now, Chromedome has to find a way to keep on living without the person who was his one anchor in life. He has to struggle with his past without someone who'd understand him like Rewind would, but through Rewind's message he's been given some strength and hope, and he still has friends (most notably Brainstorm) who he can turn to sometimes and socialize with. Chromedome still has hope and close relationships, unlike Cyclonus without Tailgate.

So what about having the narrative of someone dying of an incurable disease, then? That would surely make Tailgate's passing have some resonance, right? Well, maybe. But it's been done before. Anyone remember a little dude named Ironfist, with the bullet slowly digging closer and closer to his brain? Ironfist, who died a needless, slow death but was mourned by those close to him? Roberts had a hand in that story too, if you remember.

Point is, unlike some people here I don't need to have characters die every five issues or so and have my hand held through yet another lesson of "sometimes, people die" in order to know that yes, characters can die. By this point I am very well aware that at any moment a character that I've come to love could pass on. That was the reason why I, and by the looks of it almost everyone else reading MTMTE, was holding my breath and waiting for the axe to drop. People were preparing themselves for the "inevitable" and several death pools were put up to gauge who most people thought would bite it by the end of the issue. Only...it turned out that no one did (excepting Ambulon, of course).

Maybe a lot of the backlash is just because these people had their expectations dashed. That's fair enough. And it's also fair that this storyline could've used an additional issue or two to properly space out information and made said "narrative coincidences" more believable and flow more organically. But for whatever reason, that wasn't on the table. And it looks like this kind of ending was always planned, if I'm reading this response on James' Twitter right.

I'm sure James has plans for the characters that pulled through this issue. He wouldn't have kept them around if he didn't.

In the end, could this have been done better? Sure. But for me, just because the ending was a happy one doesn't mean that the plotline lacked drama and/or depth. Having a main character die every time there's danger or a massive event would be pretty damn boring and get predictable after a while. I appreciate Roberts switching it up now and again to keep us on our toes.

No one died this time...but what about next time, hmm?  

 

^ Oooh, look, conspiracy theories shot down again...  

That's a stupid theory.

He's fixed by the END OF THE ISSUE.

 

I want to hug you so freaking bad right now.

My only real complaint with this issue isn't even the issue itself. The actual words and pictures, I don't see anything expressly wrong. I just wish the Prose story was an issue all it's own. I mean, it's not like we missed out on anything, because it's right there, available to all who purchased the comic to read, but I would've liked to see that stuff. I would've especially liked to have seen Rodimus' office with the pink walls and flames around the door, since the only other time we'd seen it was in The Gloaming where... that art... ugh... And actually seen Red come back, and he and Fort Max leave.

And then there's that.

 

I'm still not convinced. I mean, the stuff at Delphi happened surreptitiously and First Aid never really got a chance to confront Pharma about that, but only an hour earlier Ambulon got chainsawed in half lengthwise right in front of First Aid. That's is going to leave an emotional mark, naturally.

In fact, Pharma, First Aid and Amulon were all co-workers for some time, so there is no doubt a personal dynamic there, and a feeling of betrayal. However, to me I just don't feel like First Aid snapping was due to anything "special" about Ambulon... I think it was just the sudden burden of everything Pharma had done, ignited by his completely dismissive, irreverent attitude. I didn't feel like First Aid acted out of grief, or loss... but out of an indignant fury.

But we'll see, I guess.

Exactly. It's all love.  

 

I'm enthusiastic too, but maybe we might just want to wait till we have it in hand before hailing it as the second coming, no? And while overall I love the design, those shoulder joints are definitely a sore spot.

Yeah, it's kind of a shame that we have TWO new Whirl figures, and neither one fits the MTMTE design, but such is life. I'm still pretty stoked. I am a bit surprised to see a Voyager design that has so few clear repaint/remold options. The physical form of that figure is so distinctly G1 Whirl, that I can't really see it matching anyone else.

True, but Generations Rewind was barely more than an accessory. This Tailgate is a flat-out homage to IDW's version. That said, I have no idea whether there was any pressure from Hasbro, but either way, none of that changes what I consider to be a pretty wildly off-balance plot twist.

Well, that moment, for one thing, would have had some resonance, rather than having the rug pulled out from under it on the very next page. As for people being "upset" over the lack of death in this issue, don't overplay it. I'm just calling it. That was Tailgate's moment. In the midst of a lot of careening, jam-packed, desperately arrhythmic plotting, it was a moment that I think worked.

If anybody here is 'upset', it's more evident in the surprisingly emphatic, emotional retorts that have followed "how dare you suggest Tailgate should have died?? That would have been too cruel and mean and nasty and boohoohoo" It's sort of... funny?

Not really. Tailgate is not under some kind of obligation to "do" anything, except provide interesting story hooks... which he did. But most characters have a sort of character arc, and I feel like Tailgate was reaching the natural conclusion of his arc (particularly in relation to its overlap with Cyclonus). It's not that I don't see any possible things that could be done with him in the future. I'm just saying, this is a natural point to end his journey with a bit of resonance and pathos.

I think Roberts has been pefectly adept at providing exposition even when Tailgate isn't around. Arguing otherwise sort of reduces Tailgate to being primarily a plot device for such things, which doesn't say much for him. And to suggest that there's nobody else out there who could fill a "void" left by him shows a profound lack of imagination. We have a few hundred characters on board the Lost Light. To imply that Roberts couldn't take any one of them and use them to steal our hearts is also silly.

Again, your argument rests on a lot of unilateral deterministic presumptions. Losing that link to his past, but having become part of this quest in the meantime, could prompt all sorts of different responses from Cyclonus. Will he become more bitter? Will he carry on because knowing Tailgate made him a "better person"? Does he have something to prove? Would he leave? A mourning Cyclonus, seeking a new direction to fit his new, changed outlook (especially considering his religious associations) could lend itself very well to his continued presence on the ship. After all, where else does he have to go?

I don't think that argument holds water. You're saying that the death could only push him one way. I think you're contriving a line of reasoning to fit your thesis, rather than the other way around. In any case, we'll never know now, will we?

I don't think what you're describing makes them more interesting characters at all. More like a gradual assimilation into comfortable mediocrity (or perhaps, if one were so inclined, a delightful series of increasingly cute and erotic fanfics...?). There's a reason most stories end with the couple kissing or riding off into the sunset... because that's generally when things would get boring otherwise. I don't need another 12 issues of Cyclonus and Tailgate making cute. Sometimes tragic loss is just more compelling.

Only in the sense that Cyclonus and Chromedome would get to become the lonely hearts club. But saying "we've already killed characters in this series, so any more would be repetitive and lazy" is sort of preposterous, you have to admit.

Yeah, imagine that... two extremely different characters might respond to a different death in ways that are completely different from each other, and lead to different (and perhaps interestingly contrasting) new directions for both of them. Go figure. No, sorry... obviously, it could only be "repetitive".  

Neither do I. In fact, in general, I prefer that they DON'T die, because in most cases, it's pretty unnecessary (and IDW has already heedlessly discarded a ton of ostensibly "obscure" characters, without giving them a chance to shine). But sometimes, when it fits the dramatic rhythm of the moment, I think death can be an effective story feature. In fact, this is kind of at the foundations of human storytelling. It's not "lazy" or unnecessary. It is primal.

"Backlash"? Is there a backlash? As far as I know, I just made a critical observation. The backlash here has largely been against anyone who has the temerity to suggest that maybe Tailgate could have just died, and that the circumstances of his survival were INCREDIBLY contrived and poorly presented. I mean, guys... get a grip. I'm as sentimental as the next guy (probably moreso), but he's not real. I also don't strangle kittens for fun.  

I for one, had no particular investment in a bloodbath. Up till now, while Roberts has proved himself capable of killing characters, he's shown much more tendency to fake people out. In truth, I was pretty much expecting the "cure for Cybercrosis" to pop up in this story, and it made me roll my eyes, because wrapping something like that up neatly in a single story arc felt a bit cheeky. When Cyclonus plunged that sword through Tailgate in that panel, I was suddenly like "Woo. Now THAT is a strong hand at the switch. Well done Roberts... I'll walk out of this comic a little more impressed than when I walked in."

So yeah, the final page feels like a cop out to me. *shrug*

I'm just surprised you guys are having such a hard time with that. But I'd hardly call it a "backlash".

If so, then it only confirms my earlier point. If there was no outside influence on this outcome, then he shoulders the responsibility himself. James, I know this storyline is about 5 issues shorter than it needed to be, but just the same... a bit sloppy, I'd say.  

Well, based on what he implies in that Twitter post, he really kept Tailgate around just for the shock value. If he was weighing his options, it doesn't really indicate any big plans for Tailgate (though of course new plans could still be drawn up). I also wouldn't say that always opting for the "surprise ending" is necessarily the best scriptwriting strategy. In any case, I was more surprised when he killed Tailgate... even if only for less than a page.

Happy Ending/Sad Ending is irrelevant. People don't seem to be understanding that. It's not about keeping things "dark" for me. The more important thing is Good Ending. Sometimes Sad Ending is the way to go. Or if you're going to fight it and go Happy... then do it right. That's all.

zmog

 

The ending of a story should fit the story. I mean if happy end good but a sad or tragic ending works better the author should go with that. I rather have an good ending. To many movies have ending are just plain sappy. I with zmog on this.

 

Is that in the prose? I don't have time to skim it again right now, but in the main story, Whirl's very much still damaged at the end of the issue, when he gives Cyclonus that advice.

 

What resonance, though? Why? What deep and meaningful reason is there to kill Tailgate off? He dies and...welp, there goes another minibot in a hasty, heroic fashion while the tall dude that he's close to angsts about it. It's not like we just had that before in the previous plotline oh wait we did!

I'm not just talking about the reactions here, though.   There's an undercurrent of that sort of attitude across the many corners of the internet I lurk.

And I don't object to the idea of his death because it's cruel. I object to it because it's wasteful and mainly done to fulfill some sort of unspoken "tragic death quota" so that the reader can re-learn that horrible things happen...again.

What's his journey, though? Why should it end right there? Just because there could be an end to a character arc at one point doesn't mean that there should be. By that logic, Ratchet could've been killed off somewhere in this issue because, hey, First Aid is there now and he's taught him all he knows and Ratchet got to do one last, heroic thing. His arc is closed, right?

Except something like that didn't happen, because there's obviously still something James has in store for Ratchet.

But would anyone else besides Tailgate asking questions about standard Cybertronian culture and history that everyone else in the cast should already know make as much sense and flow as well? With Tailgate, he's so new to absolutely everything that he's in a perfect position to ask questions. Having all these other TFs who've been through at least 6 million years of experience living a violent war suddenly be surprised at stuff that they've lived would make them look kind of...stupid, honestly.

If my argument rests on any presumptions, so does your argument that Cyclonus and Tailgate are now doomed to fluffy, boring domesticity since Tailgate lived through his ordeal.

I only say that Cyclonus would become a dull moper with little reason to stay on the Lost Light because he's never really given much of a shit about anyone else on the Lost Light besides Tailgate (and at first, even that was done begrudgingly). Sure, he could stick around to see if they find the Knights, but I think even Cyclonus knows that even if the Knights do restore Cybertron, it wouldn't be his Cybertron. It wouldn't be the planet with its ideals and sense of honour that he knows and loves.

There's only so much having a loner character in your cast can do without having someone to play off him. And given that he hasn't made any other connection besides one to Tailgate in this series so far, nor ever shown that he wants to do so, that says to me that his involvement as a character in the plot would be pretty darn limited unless Tailgate's death would render him wildly OOC.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think things will be all sunshine and daisies for the two of them after this experience. Cyclonus, I imagine, will still be pretty frowny, grumpy, and strict. Tailgate will still be naive in some ways, although now he's learned to make the most of his life and that a heroic sacrifice isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I'm saying that having yet another small, kind character die a hero's death tragically while the one person who's important to them deals the final blow out of necessity and is left behind to mourn their life and try and find a way to somehow find the strength to move on...when we just had that sort of thing as the climax of the last plotline? It makes for a repetitive pattern. It makes for predictability. In real life something like that might happen, but this is fiction where there should be satisfying meaning behind every story, and not a meaning that we've just been through already.

Death can certainly be an effective part of storytelling. On that we agree. But it isn't the only way to give events in a narrative meaning. Sometimes, even just the threat of death and the subsequent triumph over it and the fallout from that can be interesting too. Really!

Yes, like I said earlier there's been some backlash. Curiously, mostly from people who seem addicted to death and tragedy in comics as the only way to wring out emotions from readers. Not saying you're one of those people, of course, just telling you what I'm seeing around.  

It could be that this outcome was hurt by the need to wrap everything up here before Dark Cybertron starts. Maybe you and others would've been more satisfied with this end if the story was spread across another issue. I don't know. But I just can't see that there's anything intrinsically wrong with things ending happily despite expectations to the contrary.

I think this is the core of our disagreement: You think that the relative sloppiness of some of the narrative decisions here completely ruins the ending and that Tailgate's death is something that you would've preferred (and what you think would bring more "pathos") as an outcome compared to what we got. I think that despite the rushed and "convenient" plotpoints this ending is still a good one, albeit one that could've been made better for xyz reasons.

There's just a difference of opinion here that we're trying to explain to each other.

It's apparently a bit more complicated than that, as he just said a while ago. Maybe you can ask him about it? He's been very gracious when answering questions over there, so I'd give it a shot.

Again, I maintain that it was a good, if messy and improvable in hindsight, ending. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree?

Either way, we'll see what he has in store for us two issues from now.

 

You may want to reread the issue. I don't recall there being an art panel with him being repaired.

 

You know what? You are absolutely right. I stand corrected and I'm sorry for snapping at everyone.

I still think it's a stupid theory, but I guess we will find out.