A link? I've watched the show, but that doesn't mean I keep links to YouTube clips of it on hand or anything. You'll have to turn to someone else for that.

I haven't gotten around to watching Beast Machines yet, but no, Beast Wars was not deep most of the time. There were moments, episodes that were a little bit deep (mostly involving Dinobot) and a few that were emotionally touching, which is often mistaken for being deep (also mostly involving Dinobot) but the series as a whole didn't have any lasting meaning. The deep parts were footnotes in the story, not the main gist of it. In the US, we generally avoid marketing "deep" to kids... or to anyone most of the time. If you start overtly trying to impart significant spiritual or philosophical messages to children, parents will probably be offended and vocal about it. The closest thing we've got right now is Avatar: The Last Airbender, the very premise of which hinges on concepts of balance and spiritual transcendence.

 

You must have been watching a Bizarro British version of Galaxy Force.

I will grant you that Starscream's charge is well set up with what they had, BUT, it suffers from being constructed almost entirely of stock footage. Its good use of stock footage (to a degree), but its still stock footage.

As for the last battles:

Armada - Crap talking at the start. Kid interaction. More crap talking. Fight begins because Optimus Prime hates Galvatron's guts. They fight and stab each other, blowing parts off. Prime attempts to break Galvatron's back before a pole is thrust through his back.

Interruptions: The Armada fleet attacking Unicron. Hot Shot telling his fleet to attack when they're animated actually running away.

Ending: Lackluster ending where Galvatron sacrifices his life to give Optimus Prime the final victory. Or could be interperated that he is taking victory by denying Prime the chance to kill him.

GF - Crap talking at the start. Kid interaction. More crap talking. Galaxy Convoy fights for the Burning Heart of Japanese Justice. There are big 'SUPER ATTACK' explosions and erm.... their textures are swapped to a 'damaged' version. Galaxy Convoy gets knocked offline three times, and comes back online three times because of some threat Galvatron makes about destroying everybody else.

Interruptions: Friendship And Burning Justice Shall Prevail in the scene of pushing a giant rocket booster that apparently can't be turned off.

Ending: Master Galvatron is impaled on Vector Prime's sword and dissapears for some reason.

There is not much you can do when the source material, originally written as a continuation, suddenly becomes a seperate series.

Of course, Hasbro is partially to blame for not taking the fiction on themselves, then passing it onto Takara to use, like with G1 and the original BW.

True, particularly in the first season, Beast Wars isn't a particularly deep series, but it was an enjoyable scifi series with good characterisations and a relatively complex character arc for Megatron, undoubtably the star of the show. Excellent scenery chewing dialogue for him, too.

Beast Machines, despite its characterisation changes, its repetitive scenes, and endless Maximal bickering, is fairly deep in its questions of how we live in a increasingly technological society, losing our connection to the Earth and our spirituality. You may like it - it utilises a fair number of anime-type standbys for some reason (probably cost), like speed lines, magic powers and stock footage. I generally think people hated BM because of the wild changes in characterisation to most of the cast, especially Rattrap and Rhinox.

As for the US generally avoiding deep marketing to kids, I don't think ANYBODY does deep marketing to kids.

 

Agreed. Beast Wars did have the best dialog and characterization of any TF series I've watched. Then again, that's something that's possible with any TV concept, and doesn't take full advantage of the possibilities specific to the concept of warring alien robots  

I've been meaning to watch it for awhile, if for no other reason than I intend to watch every TF series all the way through. It does sound like a theme that I've liked before in other stories, but I'm not sure if I think TransFormers is really a good match for it.

Depends on whether you consider fourteen-year-olds to be "kids". Works by Yoshiyuki Tomino and Shoji Kawamori are usually pretty deep. Evangelion was deep, if rather confusing to a lot of people. Even Naruto consistently explores the causes and consequences of loneliness and isolation, and what it means in life to suffer and overcome them.

 

Non-TF fans think the same about cartoons that feature robots transforming into trucks.

 

I had an interesting thought about the Beast Wars vs Galaxy Force schools of action scenes.

Fights in Beast Wars are a bit like a FPS game, or maybe a strategy game. The key of the battles is strategy, position, and which players manage to sneak up on the others.

Fights in Galaxy Force are more like a fighting game, in particular something like Guilty Gear, King of Fighters, or the later Street Fighter games. The action may not seem as "smart" and a lot of the moves may be canned, but they're flashier, and the action is more about which players have the most drive and skill in using those moves at just the right moment.

They're both interesting, but I find the latter a lot more visually stimulating, and I am a very visual person. The divide between who likes which style better may also be similar to the divide between gamers who prefer PC or console and arcade games.

 

I think businesses consider those to be no longer kids, but adolescent market.

Consider the fact Takara (according to Hasbro) targets a much younger age group for the Transformers mainline than Hasbro, whereas Hasbro tries to get the boys who are growing up and about to go beyond toys altogether. Really, most japanese TF fiction in the past decade (including their dub of US BW) is in a different market to titles like say, Gundam.

I think its more due to the fact BW is treated as a scifi war series, where the object of combat is to NOT get shot, and to use basic strategy and tactics. It may not seem super heroic to be taking cover, but that's just common sense.

Galaxy Force is essentially a super robot show about the robot friends of children, as such, the Autobots and Decepticons charge into enemy fire like super heroes, and use super powers with accompanying catchphrases to (usually) defeat the enemy, sometimes with alledgedly comedic results.

 

Sure, but I think common sense went out the window about the same time alien robots showed up on prehistoric Earth and decided to dress up like animals. By the time they devote an entire episode to a joke about Rhinox farting and Megatron starts bathing with a rubber duck, common sense is screaming "uncle" and any claims of seriousness or realism are long since forfeit  

The point of the show is to be fun and look cool. It was fun, but they could have done a better job of making it look cool.

More or less accurate, but at least the show is consistent  



As for age groups, I think you're mostly right. On the other hand, that older market didn't really exist for anime and toys when Gundam started (note the little kids singing in the intro theme), and Naruto is definitely marketed for the "kids" audience.

With TransFormers, it's hard to say that Hasbro specifically markets to an older group. The relative maturity of Beast Wars (it was still a silly kids' show) could have been a fluke, as Hasbro didn't seem too particular about what was done with the story. With Beast Machines, Hasbro specifically wanted the series to have as little to do with G1 as possible (or so I've read) so that newer (read "younger") audiences could start fresh with it. They agreed with Takara on not placing Armada in the G1 continuum for the same reason. The only previous US-produced show, Generation One, often proves difficult to watch for adolescent and older audiences that didn't grow up with it. The comics have always been more mature, but again, Hasbro seems to have little interest in what those stories do. Generally, I think they just cover all bases as well as they can and hope it sells.

 

If you like super robots (Gaogaigar and the like), you'll like Galaxy Force.

Beast Wars (to an extent) and especially the TFs in the comics are more like real robots.

Super robots are about having fun. It's fun to watch super moves and crazy action sequences and having some silly moments thrown in there sometimes. They also can have a lot of drama too. But you get the cathartic release from the silliness and robot action. Real robots are about drama and are basically your classic war stories. Character-driven stories that are mainly rooted in more real life-like situations.

Real robots are too boring, I think. I like the action to be over-the-top and flashy. I don't get a kick out of just seeing a few robots/mecha shooting back and forth at each other a la Gundam or how the action in Beast Wars and the comics tends to be. I like seeing super moves and having that "Courage and will power can accomplish anything!" feeling. Not everything has to be complex, moody and deadly serious as is with most real robots.

Like I said, super robots are about just having plain and simple fun most of the time. Galaxy Force delivers that in spades. Sure, it has its dramatic moments. It has to. Every super robot show has drama in it as well, but it also has a lot of parts where it's just good old fashioned robot on robot fun. Like when I see Liger Convoy's Liger Ground Break, I get the same feeling as when I see Gaogaigar do a Hell and Heaven or Gunbuster do a Super Inazuma Kick.

It's really apples and oranges though. You can't compare the two between each other because they're totally different in formula and execution.

It just seems most people in the TF fandom grew up thinking TFs are real robots in the cartoons. I have no clue where they got that idea. From the very beginning, TFs have been super robots -- super-powered (Cliffjumper's Glass Gas, Mirage's invisibility, Hounds holograms, Trailbreakers forcefields, Windcharger's magnetic powers) robots that are sometimes silly, sometimes serious, always about fun. They've never been "We've been fighting a war for 10 million years! And war is hell! THERE SHALL BE NO FUN TO BE HAD!"

If you want your real robot TFs, go read the comics. You're looking in the wrong place if you're watching the cartoons. In the meantime, just let us who do enjoy having fun while watching our favorite robots be.

 

It's true. Even Beast Wars couldn't take itself seriously most of the time.

 

I'm not going to write an essay or a book: I liked Cybertron. You should watch it. 'Nuff said.

 

As was explained high energon levels prevented their robot modes from existing in the Earth environment. By the time of Beast Wars, technology had advanced to such a stage that they could incorporate organic forms into their bodies (which was the mission of the Axalon - to seed planets with protoforms who would take on native appearances and conduct scientific surveys). In the case of Earth the native life forms did not have issues with the raw energon, so they adopted them.

You're taking one episode (and a specifically comedic episode at that) as the example for the whole series? Megatron's rubber ducky is something the animators threw in that was eventually picked up and used as a character trait for Megatron. Otherwise Beast Wars can occassionally take itself TOO seriously, particularly during the second season.

Your definition of cool, Japan kids cool, may not be what others think is cool.

Hasbro allowed Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio leeway to do the series, and they argued to focus on a small cast in order to build greater characterisation, thus endearing them to the audience, even if it meant not showing the rest of the toyline at all. Apparently Hasbro didn't mind that.

However, by the third season Hasbro became more involved, and requested the series be made more appealing to younger audiences, hence the site gags and the humanoid children.

I believe you're confusing that with Beast Wars - at the start, Hasbro requested they not tie Beast Wars into G1 at all, and not refer to the mysterious prehistoric planet as Earth, but did ask that they leave the door open should they change their minds. Either way, Beast Machines has quite alot of G1 references.

I'm pretty pleased at how Hasbro has handled TF in the past decade. But I'd prefer Takara marketing to stop meddling in Transformers, given even their own Transformers department weren't invited to meetings between the production company when they were discussing the Superlink series, according to Hirofumi Ichikawa. And one of the Takara guys mentioned a few years back (I can't remember who said it) that TF's appeal lies in its western values.

So really, they shouldn't turn it into a Burning Heart of Justice japanese series, especially when its clearly not working.

 

I disagree. 2d fighting games involve a ton of strategy when you get good enough. And as somebody who is good enough, I am going to call Galaxy Force out. If it were a fighting game, it would be a total button masher. And not just Soul Calibur-style, I'm talking a DBZ button masher.

 

  so you rather have

Please do not leech bandwidth by hotlinking images from other sites. --2005 Staff

 

he's not the only one... beast wars was a very good show because of the story of the 2nd and 3rd seasons (not the basic plot*hole* from season one trying to recreate G1 origin in a new universe, only kinda boring. i'm talking about the great dialogues and development of characters of the next seasons that by the way tied in so strongly with the "laughable" G1 story.) and because of the CGI, but the designs and specially the toys are hideous.

oh, and i'll add something to finish my sentence that you really should have done too....

IMO

galaxy force is pretty decent for me, it's CGI looks better than the one in BW too, the annoying part of it was the blending with 2D animation.

 

yes the show is pretty bad. The dialouge and animation are really just annoying.

 

Ya know, I'm just happy to have the Transformers on televison. I can't take the shows too seriously, but the shows tell me the Transformers are doing well and that I can expect my collection to grow. I remember days when I thought the Transformers were finished. I remember looking at Animorphs in horror for bearing the name, Transformers. After that, bring on RID/CR, ML/ARM. SL/EN & GF/CYB! Fans, things could be a lot worse. I've been there and those were some really dark days as far as the Transfomers.

 

I could go on and on about how the characterization in BM was spot-on and actually put the characters through logical development, but I'm not going to bother. I will say however that you have the fundamental theme of BM wrong. It wasn't about losing touch with spirituality and nature while living in an increasingly technological society. The show's primary theme was achieving balance between nature and technology, all the while showing us the dangers of extremism on both sides.

There were some anime staples integrated into the show, namely the speed lines and some ridiculous close-ups in some earlier episodes. After that, the similarities end. Some stock footage was used, but minimally. The characters each had unique abilities, but they were by no means "magic powers". Unlike shows like Cybertron, the characters didn't exclaim the name of their attack a thousand times and spend five minutes just on showing them charge up or deploy their guns.

 

Well, in the end, you can like what you like. If you prefer Galaxy force more than BW that's YOUR opinion, which in the end is one of the things that makes us all humans. I love anime, but at the risk of sounding like I'm trying to be hardcore, the adult anime. Kiddy animes like Galaxy Force no longer appeal to me. But if that's what you like, more power to you.

BW forever. That is all.

 

Which is a staple of MANY animes anyway. Oh wait Cybertron is an anime  

I've seen Cybertron (without the bias mind you) and there aren't 5 mins of them charging up their energy/deploying their guns. That's just you exaggerating

And the stock footage of transformations and stuff is only for show. Much like shows such as Sailor Moon, Tokyo Mewmew. The transformations are like a few seconds