From Rotten Tomatoes: It looks like the Writer’s Guild strike could end any day now. But while Michael Bay is not only ready to jump back into development on Transformers 2, it turns out he’s already finished writing the story.
“I’ve been writing Transformers 2,” said Bay. “We’ve got our characters all designed. I always write all my scripts, my movies anyway so at least I’ve got something to give the writers. It’s like a template. We have a really good outline so I worked on that.”
It might be a tad unorthodox, but Bay has high pressure demands. “We had to because I want to make my date. I’m not going to let the strike take me down.”
airfox
I have nothing but agreement with the above … but some pages back you also said the movie succeeded by its name alone, and that's where I think you're wrong. I do agree (and hope beyond hope) that the second movie is not just like the first one; the story needs to move forward, the characters need to be characters (I'm talking about the robots here). The best example I can think of is X-Men and X2. The first one was exposition, a light plot with very few characters being developed. The second one built itself from the first, but gave us new characters, developed background characters and moved the story forward regarding the protagonists of the first one. That's what I hope for TF2.
I don't think it would have ruined it as long as it didn't become too dense for the general movie going audience.
-airfox
Superion33
Nkelsch:
This whole time, my discussion with you has been more about the manner of the debate rather than the actual topic itself. I have never given you my opinion on what Bay's writing this script means.
The discussion started off with you making a comment such that you wanted anyone with a negative opinion (and later on you said even positive opinions) should remain quiet till we have officially seen the movie. Yet I see that you are still a frequent visitor to the News and Rumors section. You freely give your opinion on those threads. Why shouldn't anyone else be allowed to give theirs? Its not as if you have somehow magically seen the movie.
The argument then went along the lines of you berating me for "being less" than a Hollywood type and that my ideas had little weight when stacked up against a Hollywood type. This was due to me posting my ideas. Again, you chastised me that TF1 was a success due to its "non characterization and lack of plot".
My response to you here is I believe that is wrong. I can see your point. I understand your point. I just don't agree with your point. If you think that characterization and a story would have brought down the TF1 movie, then I think you are sadly mistaken. Thats just my opinion. I don't see how characterizing the robots would have made the movie any worse. In fact, numerous people have called for that same thing. You can only thrive on special effects before the lack of a story or characterization kills the franchise. The explosions were ok in the first, but if thats all that TF2 has w/o characterization again, expect to see a mass migration. Its the story that is going to hook people into watching more. Just as in anything lasting, its whats on the inside that counts, not whats on the outside.
Think of Jurassic Park. The first movie was a technological marvel. The special effects caught the eyes and hearts of the audience. However, Hollywood kept on giving us "more of the same" and the franchise slowly started dying a very painful death. It became a Godzilla ripoff. It was just more of the dinsoaurs and more random action scenes. The public grew bored. Think of any successful trilogy and you'll see that a good story was the common denominator. Back to the Future. Die Hard (at least the first 2). Indiana Jones.
Look at the Fast and the Furious. The first one was good due to its unique take. Unique take meaning unique action sequences. There was a definite lack of story. Now the franchise is looked at as "rent only".
I'm just curious, but who else thinks more characterization or a solid plot would have ruined TF1?
Autobot Spike
Incendiary comments! hit the deck! :: watches the Michael Bay explosions as each comment hits :: i'm amazed at how we can perpetuate negativity the way we do. lol i didn't dedicate a large chunk of time to my last post because i thought it was a good writing exercise.. i honestly believe in what i wrote, and was hoping that it would help clam these feelings among you. bah, but who am i to think i have that kind of power. it all stems back to freedom of expression, and damn you all i guess you do have that right (insert chuckle here). but try not to take things so personal. part of the reason we write is to see what others have to say about it. that's a double edged sword and deep down we all know it. be prepared for people to indulge themselves by picking you apart based on the words you use and the way you use them. it's natural. just… don't take it so personal. it's okay to dislike what they might say, but take that moment before you write back to really see if you can understand the WHY in regards to their response, and do use the extent of your education in the art of communication when taking the conversation a step further. what you write will most certainly fall under scrutiny once again, and if we breed negativity, then no one is happy.
… except maybe that really negative guy. you know who you are. yep. that's right i'm talking about you.
negative guy.
-A.S.
nkelsch
Apparently:
Incendiary Language = Language containing content that disagrees with what I believe personally and makes me upset because it doesn't accept my opinions.
Your assertion that the TF1 movie succeeded DISPITE it's perceived flaws by you I think is hogwash and most of your other points are based off that false premise which basically makes them not valid in my opinion.
I think the movie was as successful as it was BECAUSE of the large number of humans, lack of robot characterization and the simple plot wrapped in action scenes. It made it able to be watched and understood by anyone opposed to having to know what transformers are to understand it. It was aimed at a large group of people. Any change to please fans would have alienated the general population.
So I disagree with the foundation of everything you believe about TF1 and discount your opinions as such because I feel that the box-office results and the general consensus of the population have proven most of the arguments made on that "statement" to be completely unfounded. So when people use the FAILURES of TF1 as a basis to criticize Bay and right manifestos to redesign TF2, I am not going to respect or value those positions.
Gordon_4
Having read all 17 pages of this thread, and realising that Michael Bay has written a treatment/outline for Transformers 2 and not a fully fledged script (which would be frightening) I'm still dubious.
Michael Bay can direct an action scene, without doubt. Although like some I'd like him to maybe slow it down a few frames so I can clearly see such a wonderful robot vs. robot deathmatch, they succeeded more than they failed.
A few things I'd like:
When a character delivers dialogue (At the end of this day….) would it be possible for us to focus on the speaker rather than someone else.
A more detailed look at our characters. It was discussed in many previous threads that simple, character building scenes can occur in actions films.
More foreign cars: now this is one for you, Car Companies. Transformers is a very profitable pie and if you get off your arses YOU too can have a slice. So come on Mazda, Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Audi, Lambourghini, Maserati, Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Pagini, BMW, Mercedes. Start throwing some damn money towards this film. That goes for anyone I've left out.
No more toilet humour. Come on writers, stop under estimating the intelligance of your viewers.
That does it, if I get all that, I'll be a happy camper. Anything more or better will of course be an appreciated and enjoyable bonus.
Superion33
There is no reason for incendiary language. You can believe what you want to believe. But there is no reason for you to incite bitterness towards yourself. And anyways, there are TOS for this board. You should read it. If you aren't familiar with it or don't believe me, ask a mod. They will gladly tell you whats tolerated and what isn't…
nkelsch
I thought you wanted free exchange of opinions and that people had the right to their opinions? And should be heard and respected?
But yet you call for mods to silence my criticism of those who post long descriptions on how they could have improved the failure of TF1 and should improve TF2. I find lots of the posts based on stretches of logic and plain falsehoods. So I disagree with them.
Which is it? You can't flood your opinions in 3000 word essays then call for modding of those who don't accept the premises that the foundations of your statements are based upon.
Superion33
Dude, whats up with you? Just read what I write. Don't put words in my mouth. Did I ever say I could have written a better script than Bay? Your logic never ceases to amaze me.
Let me use your logic and see if you see my point. Lets use engineering. The worst engineer in the world will still be better than a non-engineer at his job. Just because Bay can do better than me doesn't prove anything. He's had more experience and time in the industry than me. Of course he is going to do better than me.
And just because I am not in Hollywood doesn't mean I don't know what is good and what isn't. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what are the qualities of a good story/good book/good movie.
You, frankly, are very incendiary with your comments. You'd think the mods would want to nip this kind of stuff in the bud before it escalates. Your entire post is riddled with inflammatory comments. Can you not calmly discuss something without being a blowhard?
nkelsch
Then we should expect it any day now… He did say it would only take 1 day to write.
airfox
I guess he was respecting the WGA strike, but since that ended yesterday ….
-airfox
Draven
Speaking of which, I notice that Conceptron's script (PROMISED ages ago) is conspicuous by its absence.
nkelsch
LOL, again with the denial of the success of the movie. How many times are we gonna here that it could have been somehow more successful than it already was if they only listened to the "True Fans" and followed their perfect recipe?
Fail, Fail, Fail.
Even with bad resume of movies, Micheal Bay has more skill and experience making movies than anyone on these boards so while it may not be a film made for my taste of transformers, it will be a successful movie far beyond any of the recipes that keep getting brought up in these anti-Bay fights.
I will take a Professional Holywood Producer's script over any 'recipe' by Internet nobodies with no experience who don't have a clue what they are talking about.
PanadynePowered
I'm sorry. The first film was just terrible. To me, there is no way that the second could be any better. Anyone who knows anything about characterization and plot would realize this. To me, Bay is exactly whats wrong with the movie industry nowadays.
IACON
GAH! let is go already. No need to repeat the same bashing that went on the boards before the first film came out.
Superion33
Just using deduction, we can assume that MOST Beast Wars fans are younger than G1 fans. Just because BW came out much later than G1 did. Are there older fans who liked BW? Of course! Are there BW fans that liked G1? Of course.
But I think the case can be made that more older fans like G1 more because thats what they grew up with. And vice versa with BW. You have that emotional connection.
So, if most BW fans are younger than G1 fans, then you could see the reason for the belligerency. Younger people are more hot headed than older people. Sometimes, wisdom just comes with time and you learn better ways to deal with people. But there really is no need for that deragatory type of talk…
Akumaxv
See? This is the kind of nonsense that really isn't needed here. What's the point of that?
If the "geewunners" hate the movie, it isn't going to ruin your enjoyment of it. They're the one losing out if they choose to not give it a chance. I don't get why this sort of thing is allowed, especially in a thread that has been somewhat civil up to this point. No one is asking for G1 retold, so let that go already.
Akumaxv
Of course not everything was, but you would think with all the talk of "this isn't a cartoon" "this isn't G1" 'This isn't a toy movie" (BS, everyone and their mother knows it was" "this is a serious movie" you would get a better story, and I think if you really compare the two the 07 movie is just goofy and over the top and has many issues as the '86 movie and really,is like G1 cartoon which everyone seems to compare everything to. I would have perferred a BW or even a BM type story, and I hated BM as a TF series, but it had a deep story with characters you cared about.
I just would have expected more 20+ years later.
Maybe we'll get a good story and all the action in the second one.
Poho
The thing that worries me is not the fact that he wrote the script. He probably only wrote a rough draft anyway, or a "template" as he said, and he's handed it off to his writers anyway. What worries me is that Bay is a man who gets what he wants, when he wants it. The script that he wrote isn't going to change all that much after his writers scour over it. So the question in my mind is this:
Did he write the script in his "workaholic, gotta-get-it-done" mode for which he's notorious? Does he just want to get paid and git 'er done? Or is he thinking about the fans? Did he write a script with us in mind, knowing we don't want to wait too long, but that we want a quality product?
I'm worried that he may only be interested in the paycheque rather than the quality of the film. It could go either way. He could be looking at the first film and saying to himself "That was totally awesome! How can we push this further and make it twice as awesome?" or he could be saying "Wow that made us $700,000,000! Let's crank out another one!"
I detect massive potential for epic failure…but at the same time, I have this feeling that he's not going to let us down. He made 99% of us happy with the first one, and made a point of educating himself on the lore and listening to the fans. I think we won't be disappointed. At least the majority of us won't. F*ck the geewunners.
airfox
Well, it's not like a progression though.
After all in that same period there's been both good and bad TF series.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. If the movie succeeded just by name alone, everything Transformers-related would be a success, and we know that's not the case.
-airfox
Superion33
I believe the movie succeeded in SPITE OF all these problems. Even these problems weren't enough to overcome the sheer amount of popularity TFs have in the newer gererations as well as the multitudes that grew up with TFs (in this country and others). Had you employed the same thing with a movie just about generic robots this would have been another Godzilla flop. People would just be scratching their heads over why the movie was so horribly made. Its was due to the TF name that this movie succeeded.
But just as GM, Ford, and Chrysler found out, you can't survive on name alone forever. Eventually, the quality of your work will catch up with you and people will choose other products over yours. And it will take a lot to get those same people back to buy your products after you tried to milk them for all they had by putting the minimal amount of work into your product.