Shadow Commander Armor to have Interchangeable Faces

I think you are missing the point as its not about $15, read the the posts then comment, Seriously now!

Motormaster!

I paid 76 for the city commander armor, this is 89, you are right, its only 13 more.

Then I stand corrected, its not about it being $13 more.

sweet

Ummmm *preorders*

that was what i was thinking is the head for city commander on a ball joint if so just take the head off of your nemesis prime and swap it with shadow commanders head. instant rid scourge. that is what i will do

without a doubt getting. my city commander set comes in thursday so they'll be cool to play off each other. if they do come out with a diaclone version i will be getting that too. it'll make up for me not getting leader class animated figures.....though they are cheaper....may need to rethink this whole thing lol

Cool, very cool, and cheaper than some of the other limited run Items in my collection. consider me sold, and as to the price naysayers DON'T BUY IT, I have no plans on buying GM stock cause I think it's a bad deal, but I'm not bitching about it, I just don't buy it.

You're incorrect here, and you demonstrate a flawed understanding of how molds work. Major structural improvements and the addition of things like new screws does require new molds. Just from what Hasbro has told us, we know that the modifcations that can be done to a tool are very limited. Only about a 10% difference can be done, and those differences can only be purely cosmetic, surface changes to the details and such. Mold-altering will not allow you to add new structure to the design. As such, this design has nearly the same startup cost as the original.

The higher quality plastics will also cost more, so there's another piece of the added cost. Those different plastics will also have different temperatures, injection pressures, and different shrinkage percentages involved in them, yet another reason that the molds are undoubtedly new toolings.

Couple all of that with a shorter production run and not one, but TWO brand new parts (sword and clip), which also require new molds, and a price jump of just $13 is far from a mystery.

Don't like the higher price, but I went ahead and preordered it. I'm a sucker for "Dark" characters. If it turns out I don't have the money around the time it comes out, I can cancel.

Trust me I DO HAVE A UNDERSTANDING of how molds works, So dont jump the gun there or believe everything people tell you including Hasbro. Also I will break it down for you.

You stated (Major structural improvements and the addition of things like new screws does require new molds)

Adding better screws requires new molds? Not true unless you are putting new screw pegs in a different area or something. if you are using the same size screws but upgrading to a better quality then why would you need new molds?

You stated (The higher quality plastics will also cost more, so there's another piece of the added cost. Those different plastics will also have different temperatures, injection pressures, and different shrinkage percentages involved in them, yet another reason that the molds are undoubtedly new toolings.)

Better plastic will cost more but trust me we are talking pennies on the dollar, Also you think them using a different color or different shore of plastic requires new molds to be made? You a very incorrect, as that is like saying everytime Hasbro does a recolor they make new molds. Not true

Also yes the sword will require new molds but if you read my post about the molds for the city commander already being mostly or if not all paid off then that part of the technoligy is already paid for so should not have a current impact on a increased price. The point here is people make it seem like these guys are doing us a favour? They are in business to make money and a increase in the price proves it, So if people get upset by the truth then that is cool but the last I checked we all have the right to voice our thoughts.

I've got someone randomly asking me to pre-order one for them on Youtube. What?

Apparently they're going to pay me for it in December

Preordered!! I keep forgetting to trade one of my extra Nemesis Primes for an Ultra Magnus from a co-worker. Luckily I have 2 extras besides the MISB I have so that I can use a Nemesis Prime for the Shadow CC and when I get it. Can't wait!!

To bad they didn't go with other name that was planned. At least with that, people wouldn't think this is suppose to be a dark UltraMagnus, which it is not suppose be.

I would so buy a blue Classics Prime.

And then I'd have to get the armor for upgrade.

Right on. Of all the customs I've seen, that mold looks incredibly bad ass in blue and silver.

I think I will pass as well. I love the City Commander mold, but I can't think of any repaint of it I would buy for $80+. Nice sword though.

Now If they were to repaint/mod/retool that into a Powermaster Optimus Prime set, I would be stumbling over myself to place a preorder!

But if they decided to use smaller or bigger screw (or extra screw like you said), then most likel they'll need to retool the whole thing for that.

And they said they improved the structure and joints, so they could've add some additional or bigger support inside, or something like 0.1mm of extra thickness at some joints for thighter fit, etc. Stuff like that could mean they have to create new mould for the modified part, so yeah combining this with more limited run, for a fan-made project, I can see the slightly higher price.

Personally, I don't remember seeing a mold re-used as a straight repaint with a lower price (from Hasbro anyway), for some reason they always sell them at the same price I would glady pay 25-30% less for repaint tough


As for the set itself, I've never being a fan of "Black Prime", and never buyed one. The exception came with Classic Nemesis, because I really like this mold, and because it was cheap.

Now come this armor, and I'm like "meh, I don't like Nemesis Prime that much to spend 90$ for his trailer", but looking at the pics, and reading the topic with lots of "preordered!" made me reconsider (and kinda excited about it too!). I mean, since Classics Nemesis will probably be the sole Nemesis of all my collection, why not pimp him out so he can truly stand out! So I too can say pre-ordered now!

I do see your point as well as others, but lets be realistic do you think they would go through the whole process of making new molds of the same trailer to change the color and some small things for half of the 1st run? I dont.

Also I have never once said for people not to buy it (not saying you did)as that is the buyers choice but a nem UM to me does not make sense, I think people are fooled by hype and lead into things that are not true. the TF fans I have met for the most part are good people and the way the current economy is I feel bad when fans get screwed out of $90 and made to feel at the same time they are being done a favour.

awesome! that sword is an instant win =)

I would've been cool with just the sword

What name was that? If I may I ask.

And when I first saw this, I was all "cool, but not for me." Then I noticed the sword, and now I'm trying to justify this to myself. I need help.

Of course, that seems unlikely to create all new molds for the same product, but since it's a fan project, it make it a bit more belivable for me. Maybe they are truly dedicated and wanted to improve some weak spot and what not. If they aren't there for maximum profit, and are fine with just small profit and not loosing money, then it could be done. But I don't know them and this is all speculation from me, it could all end up being the same mold and the "improved" part being really minor thing. But still, I haven't see recent repaint from Hasbro being cheaper than the original either, so we can't blame those guys if they make more profit on the Nemesis Armor either

I can only assume from this that you are operating under the impression that Hasbro has an interest in directly lying to all of us when they explain processes and answer questions. The information I am working from comes, in part, from their direct, in person answer to a question about what level of changes can be made to a toy before they have to make an entire new mold. I'm rather inclined to believe that Hasbro's people are intricately familiar with the sort of changes they can make before shelling out for new toolings.

Based on the descriptiion given, it sounds like adding new screws entirely is, in fact, part of the changes in this version. Reworking or adding structural elements is also not always a matter of surface modifcations to a mold. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see if that is actually the case, but that is what it seems to be described as.

It is not *difficult* to make new molds. Appropriate alterations to the design files on the computer to make the changes, followed by some form of rapid prototyping would easily prove out the changes before comitting to new toolings. Computers then mill out the toolings according to the verified designs. Not a terribly difficult process if you have the requisite skills and access. So yes, if they wanted to make some real changes, I believe it is quite feasible that they would go through making new molds. Especially if the originals were designed to produce a certain production number of toys before wearing down too far. It's even more likely they would do so if they intend to carry these improvements to a future reuse of the design, and a Power Convoy version certainly seems a likely possibility at this point. So this mold would not bear the full cost through this one production run, but it would be expected to bear at least half that cost, possibly more depending on their plans for future uses.

You're right, Hasbro doesn't make new molds every time they recolor a figure. That's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about two different formulations of plastic. Hasbro does not change their plastic formulations every time they do a recolor. The ABS plastic, or whatever particular subtype of it is being used here is *not* the same type of plastic used in the original figure. Different plastics shrink by different percentages when they cool and harden. Generally speaking, you cannot simply switch from one plastic to another (in this case, to ABS), using the same molds. If you were to do so, the fit and finish on the parts would be affected signifigantly, and they would not be able to fit together into a functional item as a result, either because the parts didn't shrink as much, or shrunk too much in relation to one another. Those parts would likely not even be able to be affixed to the toy they fit onto any longer.

Of course they are in business to make money. I know exactly what sort of profit margin retailers were receiving on the original City Commander, and can make some very good estimates of what the cost per unit was to produce. I would be surprised if Fan's Project was receiving more than an additional dollar or three of that price per unit. A fairly paltry increase in their income for a run half the size and with reasonable added expense on their part. This has nothing to do with you voicing your thoughts. My issue is with the way you tried to portray the additional costs, a manner that I do not believe is justified and that I believe you are discounting numerous expenses from in an effort to make them appear to be price gouging.

Even if you don't count *anything* else, you have two entirely new parts here. These parts are small, but require, of course, their own entirely new molds, which are, of course, just small fraction of the cost of the molds of the main figure. It's not unreasonable to see the new parts as accounting for the $13 price difference, and then some besides, once you factor in mold costs (in the thousands per mold), wholesale price markup so the creators make their profits, and the added retail price markup from there.

I super agree with this. Finally someone else who gets it...(not being sarcastic either, I'm serious)

Here is one thing to consider. This isn't a repaint like Hasbro usually does with their figures. This comes with a new sword, and is more limited compared to the original. The best way to think of this release, is like a exclusive, be it ComicCon or BotCon. Those exclusives are usually just straight up repaints or a remolded head, but are made in a limited run compared to the original retail release of the mold. Plus, they do not sell for the same price as the originals.

Also, since it comes with a new sword, if they had sold it separately, then I would expect online stores to charge $10 to $15 for it alone.

Pre-Ordered Megs in Silver and Blue!!!

Looks cool, but a new, Nemesis Prime type head would've made this work a lot better. As it is, a Dark Magnus doesn't really do anything for me.

Dude an all clear, no color at all armor would be sick. I would love that for my classics Optimus. Then when he transforms into the normal sized version his trailer disappearing would make sense

Plus I honestly think it would be cool to have an 'Ultra Convoy' just floating in the air with 'invisible armor' all around him

On topic -
~not buying Shadow version
~would buy a powered version
~would buy a clear version
~would buy a clear powered version.

But those would be even more expensive I bet.

Lets just say I have some expierence in the trade. I have also talked with different people at Hasbro over the years and they are not always going to tell you the full story and provide you with trade secrets.


I take it as they are just going to use better screws and not modify the current set up but why they are doing this still does not really make sense unless there is issues with the current release, How many screws do you see break?

well the way this is put is like to create tooling is no big deal, but it is as it is a complex process. I dont think it is cost effective for them to create new molds for a recolor. I am 99.9% sure they are going to use the same mold and just create a new mold for the sword and clip.Also for the amount of city commanders produced I cant see the molds being anywere near worn

plastic formulations...lol so you are telling me molds must be designed so only a certain type of plastic can be used in them? Not true as for example a mold can be created and be used with ABS then PVC if wanted. if you buy into it all thats cool as im not going to get into this subject even more.


The point that I am making is this, This is a repaint and the technoligy is paid for so a increase in price due to a sword I dont buy. This is a weak attemped to use a mold designed for classics Mags on Nem OP and to pretend if you buy it your nem OP is now scourge? You can say what you like and continue to think your right as will I, But to me this is price gouging. And when Hasbro does it people bitch but these guys do it and its ok? When RSP was making those Arcee kits and selling them at crazy prices everyone said he was taking advantage of fans, I feel the same way here. I am cool with city commander but this idea to me is meh

QFT

Let me do a quick guesstimate:
UM upgrade set=$75
$75= Initial R&d + creation of molds + plastic + production costs + incedental costs + shipping costs + distribution costs + small profit.

SDCC nemmy upgrade set=$90
$90= creation of sword mold + production costs + incedental costs + shipping costs + distribution costs + BIGGER profit.

Oh wait, I see it now its the new sword. Developing the sword mold cost the more than developing UM armor. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Seriously, the bulk of the cost in the UM upgrade set went to the R&D and the creation of the molds itself. All im saying is its a business. They're doing themselves a favor. Theres nothing wrong with that. But i do miss the days when i got the first run CJ kits for $30.

wow, $90? I dont care how cool it is, that **** is not worth $90.

hells ya im gettin one also.... just got my city commander(s) today and theyre awsome... so im for def gonna get shadow

i fell ya but this is gonna be a limited run so if u can fork up the cash i think it will be worth it in the long run cuz the price will definitly be higher to get a hold of one of these when they run out.......if u can afford it...... get it...... you will be glad ya did

I got a feeling I will wind up canceling the pre order, but I pre'd just so I won't regret NOT doing so later. Messed up part is I might have only pre'd it because of the SWORD OF FURY :BAY :BAY :BAY !

My RID Scourge wants his damn sword back from Nemesis Prime

ya it looks tight but i hope they change the head a little.... but im such a fiend that i dont think it will matter much .....im still gonna get it

Actually, there were more than one name in the running. The one I thought was going to be used was "Shadowbane".

so is this a evil magnus or nemis prime.... evil mags seems to fit better... but whatever its still sweet

Nemesis Prime all armored up. Since the core robot for Ultra Magnus is the same character with the armor on, makes sense Shadow Commander would still be Nemesis Prime, just in armor. Then again, you can pretend the armor form is a super evil Wheelie if you wanted, its up to you in the end.

mags and prime have different faces with armor on.... now mags and shadow have same face w ARMOR ON AND OFF, so its realy should be and evil mags and not a shadow commander unless ITS EVIL MAGNUS..... ive never heard about nemis havin armor so thats why i ask..... my knowledge is good but i might have missed this... a slim chance but theres a chance nonetheless...but this is fansprojects baby so if they want to switch it up fine.... as long as they do justice to the characters im not one to judge im just a fan who enjoys robots that transform and asking questions....

IN IDW continuity Nemesis Prime had armour, which i'm assuming was his cybertronian mode. I guess this would be his earth mode.

Anybody know if the armor head is the same scale as Big Convoy?

Why does there need to be a known failure issue? Sometimes parts are redesigned and retooled simply because they can be better, or to reduce the chances of a possible failure, even if that failure has not been seen in the marketplace. Any good company will want to make a change that increases the reliability and sturdiness of their product if they can do so reasonably.

It is a complex process, and the preceeding I gave was of course the Cliff's Notes version. However, complexity and difficulty are not always the same thing. As far as mold wear, that is entirely dependant on the metals used. Cheaper, more affordable toolings will wear and tear much faster than the long-run toolings used by Hasbro and their ilk. Even Hasbro's toolings begin to show noticable wear and tear and require fixes after a few full production runs. It's certainly conceivable that the toolings were made to be able to run the desired number and not a whole lot more, and we can look to the BotCon original parts for an example of this. Those toolings are made with metals that are chosen because they know that those molds will be able to turn out just a couple thousand high quality copies before wear and tear make the end product worthless. Those toolings are also much cheaper to produce than the long-run production tools that Hasbro creates normally, but even then we know the cost is in the low double-digit thousands.

The molds are designed and sized to account for a certain amount of shrinkage in the final product, in order to achieve the proper fit and size on the finished parts. That shrink rate changes between plastic types (PVC, incidentally, may be a very good guess as to what the original City Commander is molded with). If you were molding pipes or basic items, the difference may not matter much, but the odds of serious fit and finish problems grow with the complexity of the product.

If you don't like the product, you don't like it. That's entirely your option. I'm not 100% sold on this thing myself - I'd have at least liked a different head. There's no issue here over personal opinions on the product.

Man, if he had a new head, or at least a faceplate or something to make him different from Magnus, I'd be a lot more excited....

*pre-ordered*

I think will call the armored version of Nemesis Prime 'Omega Magnus'

At least that is the name I shall use until a better one surfaces.

Am I the only one or does anyone think of Motormaster? It would make a great complement with Wildrider and Drag Strip.

While I'm sure there's other's who see it that way, I never could. Motormaster is an entire eighteen wheeler (tractor and trailer) that transformed as opposed to Prime who is just the tractor, or in this case Magnus who could be just the tractor or his trailer becomes armor. No to mention the fact that Motormaster's colorscheme is noticebly different than Nemesis Prime in any incarnataion.

Back to the topic at hand, I think this set looks really nice. It doesn't bother me one bit if there was never a Nemesis Magnus, there's a first time for everything.

Changing the head would be nice.

Should have been Powered Convoy this is still nice though