Why can't Hasbro be this honest with us?

Discussion in 'Transformers Toy Discussion' started by BenjaminXavier, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. ian5555

    ian5555 Well-Known Member

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    Circle gets the square.
     
  2. Boy Blunder

    Boy Blunder Terrorcon King

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    Okay, it was fun for a bit, but I think it might be time for people to set him to 'ignore.' He's got his subjective evidence-based mindset, and he's not changing it.

    Best to drop it like it's hot.
     
  3. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Villain

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    Yes, you should totally put your fingers in your ears and scream LA LA LA instead of engaging in this thoughtful discussion.

    Personally I will continue reading with interest.
     
  4. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    Actually I saw a First Edition Bulkhead at Toys R Us in Modesto, CA the day after Christmas. That is the only FE figure I've seen though.
     
  5. Boy Blunder

    Boy Blunder Terrorcon King

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    You know, I actually was going to give a long-winded reply to this, but at this point, I think the LA LA LA option makes more sense. The 'thoughtful' discussion has been out the window for a good long while, but keep on keepin' on.

    It's waffle time.
     
  6. Waverider

    Waverider Supreme Dude

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    But you said:

    Don't you want to feel alive? :rock 
     
  7. Psycho Grimlock

    Psycho Grimlock Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for an even-handed, objective look. It's nice to see someone else post in this thread for any reason other than to continue a flame war. I'm well aware that this is a public forum with posters of all ages, mindsets, and motives and the nature of pseudo-anonymity allows for much less civil discourse than most folks would have in public.

    From the hostility directed my way, you'd think I'd said something like MP-04 is MUCH better than MP-10 (which it is, IMO ;)  ), but it's the nature of the beast. The sheer ludicrousness of most of my erstwhile sparring partners' accusations towards me is mind boggling, and I simply cannot understand why the things I have posted are so strongly offensive. (I did like the 'smarter than everyone else' one, though; that one's pretty transparent in its motive.)

    Ahh..the internet: land of millions of over-empowered insecurity complexes. :music 

    Anyone want to discuss that Walmart has probably been using a similar re-stock extortion scenario to beat up Hasbro for lower wholesale prices?

    :tumbleweed: 
     
  8. Grandum

    Grandum Well-Known Member

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    OK, let's see if TFW2005's most stubborn fuck (me) can sort this out.

    Psycho, go back to your corner - Angry mob - go back to your corner.

    Some observations:

    He can be suspicious if he wants to, he's fully entitled to that - he feels as if he has been let down, and possibly deceived?, so it's only natural for him to feel a bit defensive.

    I think it's going to far to say that they are being deceptive, but I can wholeheartedly agree with the notion that it would be better for us if Hasbro were more transparant and communicative with the fans.

    Also, don't Hasbro rotate people in their teams? I'm sure I've read that they do.

    ...could be, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are. Let's face it - there is no proof to back up your claim - HOWEVER Nor is there any proof to back up Hasbro's claim. Because honestly? They don't know either - You would have to define what a fan/collector is that's the first thing that can be contested. Secondly, you would have to know the purpose of why someone buys a TF, and they don't.

    I agree with you that fans most likely make up way more than 3-5-7-10% which have all been thrown around transformers forums, irc (#tfarchive ring a bell to any other oldtimer here?) and chatrooms since the Beast wars days, all of them have been qouted as absolute undeniable we'll-chastice-you-if-you-question-it fact.

    The fandom have allways second guessed itself. I remember one of the earlier brodcasts of RFC where they guestimated the fandom to be 5 000 people tops, so it's not something new.

    So, to conclude - you don't know, but neither does Hasbro.

    Well, technically nor is heresay, so you know...not really proving anything here.

    Thank you for acknowledging that the 10% that is qouted is open for debate, takes a big man to admit that.

    This goes back to the point I was making earlier - it's defined as "adult collectors"

    When I did a thread here about a year or so ago a surprisingly large amount of fans are teenagers (in the lower spectrum) then there is a fair chunk around their 20s and then a surprisingly small amount of fans in their 30s. Now, I'm not claiming that this represents the fandom as a whole.

    I also made a thread about buying habbits, and again, alot of the "20s" collectors were ashamed of admitting or letting on that they were buying it for themselves, some even tried to do things like ask to have it gift wrapped as to make it look as if it wasn't to them - not as many of the adult collectors in their 30s were ashamed, but enough to skew the numbers.

    Again, not qouting percent or anything here that should apply to the entire fandom, but it does illustrate the difficulty in assessing these things.

    Comments like these are so uncalled for, Boy and it's not the first time - you're always taking the piss out of people if you have a chance to do so, and honestly it's just getting old...can you please stop being so god damn antagonistic? Just no need for this kind of hostility.

    And the earth have also been said to be flat and inhabited by dragons, fairys and unicorns, but that does not make those tall tales any truer than yours.

    By all means, provide sources for all these claims you made, please, I beg you.

    To prove that they are deceptive, yes - that would mean that he knows something that differs from Hasbros claims.

    However, I think it's important to note that far too many fans are taking Hasbro at their word, no matter what they say, without any level of scrutiny what so ever. I don't think it's wrong of us to not shut off our critical thinking just because it is Hasbro.

    Blue corner, are you ready?

    Red corner, are you ready?

    FIGHT!!!
     
  9. Psycho Grimlock

    Psycho Grimlock Well-Known Member

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    First off, I want to thank you for keeping it civil and respectful, LigerPrime. I feel at least our portion of the discussion is constructive.

    I find that interesting because in this very thread, it was mentioned that Takara nearly went bankrupt and was bought by Tomy because kids in Japan were NOT their primary market, but by expanding the context to the greater market of Asia, I can see that.

    I have not made any mention of this and don't understand what it has to do with the discussion.

    Even casual observation will reveal that at least in this thread, he's a MAJOR troll.

    I don't question that you may have connections, but I would question the amount of detailed production process knowledge any of them might have; unless they work in the engineering or OEM QC sector, even a TT insider will have little real knowledge of the workings of contract production facilities in China, Korea, Indonesia, and Vietnam. The insane amount of bootleg (NOT knock-off) product widely available is a pretty good indication that there is a large disconnect between Has/Tak proper and the people actually utilizing the molds and making the toys, and technical innovations of the past few years have rendered much of what has been published about the toy production process obsolete.
     
  10. process

    process Hanlon's razor Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

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    Word of advice: it's best not to call people 'trolls' and 'fanboys' while asking for civility, especially when those people aren't.
     
  11. Grandum

    Grandum Well-Known Member

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    He's right psycho - yes, people have been less than civil to you, so I can understand your frustration, but it's better if you try to remain civil yourself and if you feel you are being bullied to report the most offensive comments.
     
  12. Steevy Maximus

    Steevy Maximus Old School Snarkster

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    I've been around a while, and my experience is that TFW (and Hisstank for that matter) skew towards the younger side as far as collector demographics. You go to different boards, you're apt to find varying demographics (Allspark, for example, tends to skew more towards guys in their 30s, if not early 40s)

    When asked at MULTIPLE conventions, MULTIPLE Hasbro teams (Transformers, GI Joe, STar Wars) have for MULTIPLE years (going back at least 10 I'm aware of) have continuously cited the the "one year" number as being the approximate time it takes to produce a given new toy.

    Even Toyguru (over at Mattel, a competing company) has also, repeatedly, mentioned it takes about a year to develop a new product.

    Manic Rambings: BotCon 2002
    A report from Botcon 2002


    I agree...to an extent. I also think that fans really should take a small bit of time to research and TRY to understand why Hasbro tends to do what they do (most of which is grounded in some degree of sound reasoning).

    But it comes back to what I said earlier...Hasbro damned if they do, damned if they don't simply because there are a HOST of factors (from internal cost auditing, to retailer demands, to the sales of prior product) that all factor into what Hasbro does.

    You don't have to take them at their word ALL the time, but in most cases they really don't have an outright reason to lie or deceive fans
     
  13. mx-01 archon

    mx-01 archon Well-Known Member

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    I really didn't want to respond to the ad hominem and make this even messier, but trolls typically don't spend half an hour trying to type out a polite and well-reasoned response to an internet argument, tonally intended to cool the discussion the fuck down.

    So please, listen to the logic of what other people are saying before getting all uppity on us. Yeesh.
     
  14. Psycho Grimlock

    Psycho Grimlock Well-Known Member

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    "Fanboy" is a term which is used not in derision but in description. I have referred to myself with it, because that's how an outsider would view me, or most of us here for that matter, and I identify with the fanboy culture, which is why I know the view I am questioning is so popular.

    I don't use the term "troll" lightly, and it is MORE than justified in the application. Should the people trolling this thread decide that they can be more respectful, THEN my view would change. However, the fact of the matter is that I have been many orders of magnitude far more respectful than I have been treated and I am tired of what I post being distorted and the constant accusations levied at me for things I have NOT said.
     
  15. mx-01 archon

    mx-01 archon Well-Known Member

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    Methinks you're greatly overstating the amount that you're being "personally" attacked. And for the record, most of us don't enjoy being referred to by condescending terms like "Hasbro apologist" and whatnot, before you go claiming innocence in this matter.

    My initial statement was purely in jest, which I thought had been conveyed clearly, since even you seemed to respond in kind.

    Beyond that, the most of what's been said in this thread have been made to dissect and provide counterpoints to your logic, to understand what exactly it is you're complaining about. Because you've kinda been all over the map, whether you realize it or not. You complain about Hasbro's "deception" on one hand, and then say that they should be allowed their own degree of secrets on the other, and quite frankly, I have no idea what we're arguing about anymore.


    The only thing I can solidly read from you is that you're one of the people who thinks that Hasbro would have more to gain by listening to their fandom more. That's potentially true. But reasonably speaking, if it presented such great gains for Hasbro, they would have already adjusted their business strategy to accommodate. That's the entire point of having market analysts: to determine the direction of market flow and then direct the company towards following it. So one may conclude that it's probably not the right direction to move in. They've been steadily posting record profits for the last several years doing what they're doing, so they can't be completely wrong about that. Perhaps there is greater potential in doing what you suggest, but it proves to be more trouble than its worth for not significant gain.

    Or perhaps, as this very thread can attest to, fandom is a collection of squabbling, bickering idiots, who can't for a moment come to a consensus on what it is they like and want, and they're probably better off not listening to us too closely should the wish to save their sanity :p .
     
  16. Psycho Grimlock

    Psycho Grimlock Well-Known Member

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    I've highlighted the things that I just can't get past and here's my quarrel.

    1."polite and well-reasoned response"- You and I have divergent views on both manners and reasoning. "Polite" would be addressing and responding to things I have actually written instead of accusing me of a wide array of statements that I haven't made at all. And while you find your posts "well-reasoned," they're not. They're statements of circular logic and insults predicated on the prior presumption (say that four times fast) that I am completely wrong and you are completely right. There is no room for discussion or even the possibility for some sort of mutual agreement.

    2."getting all uppity"- is an unwarranted insult. If I have been formal in my comments, it has only been for the sake of clarity. If you'll check out some of my other posts in other threads, you'll see that I am quite capable of humor and informal discussion, but I know from experience that trying to use a lot of humor would only cloud this discussion, so I'll drop a bad joke every now and then, but I'm not being "uppity" at all.

    3."us" - I am part of the community here too and don't like being singled out as though I am any less a member just because I DARED question a pervasive idea.
     
  17. Roanstalker

    Roanstalker Great Baan Gaan fan

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    Uh why did you need to single out the 'us' bit? That was clearly meant to represent the guys counterpointing you, not the entire fan community ever.
     
  18. Psycho Grimlock

    Psycho Grimlock Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the civility. Here goes:

    Take a look back at the insults, accusations and misrepresentations of what I have posted and put yourself in my place. While I'm far from thin-skinned, nobody likes being the butt of a long running joke, especially over things that aren't true.

    "Tin foil hat" is NEVER completely in jest and unless used as a self-descriptor, ALWAYS is patronizing and dismissive, because it implies the recipient to be a paranoid delusional. I responded the way I did to try and defuse any further escalation...and the results speak for themselves.

    ...and you fail to see that most of what you have provided does not do so and add insults to boot, so the final product is a one-sided attempt at discussion being met with a wall of noise, the "LA LA LA" that someone else pointed out.

    I'm NOT complaining about the topic! If I have any complaint, it is that you and many others are either skimming what I say and projecting your own ideas onto me or have so completely misunderstood what I have posted that NOTHING I say is being taken in context.

    The OP asked "Why can't Hasbro be honest with us?" The answers are complicated and ARE all over the map. The assertion that Hasbro is being dishonest was made by the OP; I am just trying to offer some answers as to WHY that may be the case.
     
  19. Psycho Grimlock

    Psycho Grimlock Well-Known Member

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    It didn't come across that way to me, and that's why I did that.
     
  20. mx-01 archon

    mx-01 archon Well-Known Member

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    You're more thin-skinned then you claim to be if you "feel like you're the butt of a running joke" when what we've had is perhaps one of the most generally civil discussions over this general topic that this board has had in months. Usually, people rant and rave about how they know better than a multimillion dollar corporation and get a "Cool story bro" at best. That's being the butt of a running joke.

    Which I posted directly after you posted about suspecting Hasbro of downplaying the fandom's presence so they could abdicate their "responsibility" to us. So uh, yeah, you kinda started to paint yourself as one of the aforementioned people, which earned you that initial dismissive response.

    So, uh, sorry to offend?

    That the dismissive attitude stopped and most of us started to discuss your theories in earnest? Those that weren't jokingly removing themselves from the debate, at any rate.

    I don't know if you realize it or not, but many of your posts tend to ignore the core rationales being presented, instead focusing on this obsession for quantitative proof, when not railing against perceived slights. I think many of us are getting the exact same impression of you, because it doesn't seem like you're bothering to look at the core logic of the problem.

    I've personally being laying out my thought processes throughout this entire thread to try to talk you down, but somehow you keep interpreting my stubborness as "trolling". Which...yeah, nothing of the sort.

    Which is what begets the various "pot calling kettle" comments you've been garnering.

    You act like talking to me has been talking to a brick wall, but whenever I posit a logical argument, I get absolutely zero feedback from you to tell if we're seeing eye-to-eye or not, which is really just dragging this whole thing out unnecessarily.


    If you think you're being misunderstood, then you take the time, take a step back, and clarify what it is you're trying to say. Simple as that. Rephrase your entire argument from scratch to make sure that people are reading what you want them to read, rather than being distracted by all the bickering inbetween and losing the heart of your message.

    The simple counterargument being made throughout this thread being that Hasbro has actually done very little to paint them as dishonest, so we've been trying to dissect why it is that you keep suggesting that to be the case. Simple as that.