Yeah, ROC was really awful. It was so bad that I didn't pick up a single toy from the movie. It was entertaining but I'm still trying to forget that movie! LOL!

I knew someone would bring up the newer TFs as an example and I get your point. But the difference is that we more or less expected them to be 'smaller' and Hasbro wasn't deceptive by showing the FOC figures as being larger in size but smaller when they were actually released. The smaller size and hollowed toys were 'expected'.

Dude, Hasbro is running a business not a charity. If the economy does not favour selling any of their products, it's in their interest not to sell the product. They're not beholden to us.

I got to agree with you because I'm speaking as a 'international' fan and G.I Joe doesn't sell in my part of the world. The movie toys were on massive clearance and none of the modern stuff made it to retail.

 

That's absolutely, patently ridiculous.

Not only can it not be deception without the intent to deceive, but a company doesn't spend hundreds of thousand to millions of dollars in R&D just to fuck with its fans.

 

I was thinking about this picture while reading this threadXD
p.s. sorry if the pic wont show up, I'm doing this on a mobile device.

 

Score one for mob mentality! That one guy who is different... He's ...wrong!!!...MUST...STAMP...OUT!!!

Break out the pitchforks and staves!

...unless doing so was deemed too risky or expensive to develop. Collectors have far too many nitpicks to actually cater to them on a large scale and the only thing worse than their demands from a position of perceived weakness is their demands IF they believed they were making them from a position of strength (see this thread.) Better to convince them that they are irrelevant than try to indulge such an elusive target.

Never said they did. I'd love to see more universal appeal fatten the bottom line for Hasbro AND please picky collectors like they did when both the TF and Joe lines were at their sustained peaks in the early 80's.

You think Hasbro spends that much money on R&D for any one line and you're calling ME delusional?  

I made the mistake of taking you seriously earlier. Obviously, you have no intention of real conversation and are simply using my posts as fill in the blank boogey/straw-men for whatever bugs YOU. Have fun with that.

 

Technically no, they are not directly beholden to 'us.' They are beholden to retail chains which compose the bulk of their sales, but guess who the retail chains are marketing the products to? Wait for it...not yet...pretty soon..OK NOW:

the people who actually BUY Hasbro's products at the end of the retail chain, and especially considering that the quote you used was in regards to GI Joe and that large numbers of Joe fans expressed more than serious interest in buying EVERY SINGLE PIECE displayed and Joe product pegs generally stay perennially sold out, no one was asking for charity, just an opportunity to indirectly put more money into Hasbro's coffers, which apparently, they don't want.

 

One reason why I think their not honest with there customers when you see Q n' A or whatever, is frankly their a big business and they don't care or owe anyone an anwere for their actions. They just do what they want to try and make a buck or 2. I surely would have loved to see the droid line again but as it is now SW figures are already at 10spot a piece and I just can't see that anymore unless its a figure that I really like and want.

 

I think Hasbro should employ staff at any place that sells Transformers to ask anyone that purchases a TF figure if they're buying it because they're a collector or fan (and what type/to what extent) or if they're just buying it in general or for someone else or whatever. Then we can finally have accurate numbers for how much of sales are to collectors or fans and how much to regular people just buying a toy. Shouldn't add too much to the cost of each figure to implement such a system.  

However, even when there are figures released that could be considered collectors items or nods 'for the fans' (such as Generations Darkmount or Thunderwing say, or even Masterpiece figures), how many of those figures are also purchased by regular people just buying a toy that had no idea it was anything but just another random Transformer? Or fans and collectors buying all the TF stuff that Hasbro would consider aimed at their main sales base of kids? I think there's too much crossover between demographics to ever be able to get anywhere near an accurate percentage of what's fans, collectors or just kids wanting a cool toy.

 

Welp, that was fun.
But as MX1 & Process pointed out, we've been here longer, we were around when this issue was addressed. arguing with a guy who's been here for 2 months and who says "I didn't see it so I don't believe it.....and even if I did see it I still won't believe it" was an amusing distraction last night, but I'm done now.

 

I've been around for many years longer than I've been active, but it is refreshing to see you admit that you actually have no foundation and are relying on a recollection of a singular event, which if it EVER existed, is at the very least, extremely outdated and probably so narrowly defined as to be misleading to begin with. That's hardly a reliable basis for such a pervasive tenet of fanboy-dom, but considering the context, makes perfect sense.

 

Pot calling kettle, black courtesy phone please.

 

Actually, they already do. They have regional reps who visit each store stocking their products and make sure that displays are correct and current and they coordinate individual stock numbers against distribution data provided by their retail customers. They wear light yellow polo shirts and khakis. The one I have met is very approachable and has answered every question I had as best she could. As Hasbro makes so many different products, the reps don't have detailed information on any one line (most of their material concerns infant products and their recalls).

Any real demographic data would have to come from the retailers themselves, who compile the data as best they can (discount card purchase tracking, surveys, etc) because it is in their interest to stock products which sell, however, as Walmart has demonstrated on the corporate level (see Tupperware), they will leave product off the shelves as part of a scheme to force vendor suppliers to lower wholesale prices if they wish their products to be re-ordered. A dearth of Hasbro toys there, followed by a windfall of the same products at secondary retail (Ross, TJX, etc) could be an indication that Walmart, Hasbro's largest customer by far, employs this strategy towards them as well, so their data provided to suppliers is most likely suspect. Unfortunately, this puts the burden of market research on Hasbro and most of the data they gather is probably a carefully guarded trade secret.

 

An explanation is in order. Your allusion requires context.

 

We got a freakin' Classics-verse Black Shadow. Therefore any attempt to paint Hasbro as not paying attention to its fandom is invalid.

Yes. Quite easily. Each scratch-made Transformers mold takes between 8-12 months to develop (possibly longer for something like a Masterpiece figure, although this development time is likely shared by every other mold planned to be released around the same time), involves the input of maybe a dozen people over that production time (concept artist, lead designer, engineering, manufacturing, with minor involvement from accounting, legal, and promotional teams). A single Deluxe mold has been said to cost Hasbro around a quarter million dollars over its lifetime (being composed of about two-tons of high-grade steel, and factoring in periodic maintenance costs, and the eventual transport and storage of said monstrosity).

You clearly haven't made the effort to understand all the conditions that Hasbro has to work under to get their product to market, and are lashing out at them for completely illogical reasons.

 

Good attempt but you miss out one factor - what if majority of the customers don't want the 'product'? And what if the retailers inform Hasbro the product that the toys aren't selling? Furthermore what if the toys that Hasbro sell only constitute only a small portion of Hasbro overall sales? Then what happens?

I don't believe the Joe line is doing as well as Transformers, if so Hasbro would definitely push the line hard.

If you have been collecting toys and been to various toy forums, you should know that Hasbro and other toy companies indirectly take orders from the retailers through sales figures.

Example, Hasbro rushed out the Marvel Legends punisher wave because the retailers informed them that sales were good and they wanted more 'new products'.

Sure you may be the hardest of hardcore fan but no way Hasbro gonna spend $$$ to produce figures and vehicles just to satisfy a minority. It doesn't make economic sense.

You mention 'large' number of Joe fans but is there a definite number like 10,000 or 20,000 customers? Because if I were Hasbro, I won't take orders unless it's from a more concrete and reliable source. Your only hope is that the upcoming Joe movie does well to drive up demand for the toys. Only you can hope Hasbro sells the toys online.

 

This is amazing. By approaching the question asked in the original post from an angle that appears near heresy among fanboys, all sorts of accusation have been lobbed at me, simply for asking a question that others here take on blind faith. The worst thing I have actually said was that Hasbro may be purposely misleading in the course of its business and I have posited a well-evidenced alternative to the personal insults and attacks that have been levied against me. To that end, I am finished with mx-01 archon's troll attacks, but I do have some questions in regards to some pretty lofty suppositions he has posted:

I want a direct source quotation from a Hasbro rep ("has been said" does not constitute a verifiable source) detailing the exact method of production of both molds and injection production, and if this process has been changed or modernized in any way in the last decade. My reasoning is simple; automated CNC machining can produce very detailed product molds for injection resin products for orders of magnitude less cost than previous methods of mold production, making mold storage irrelevant.

I haven't "lashed out" at anyone, unlike you and a few others who have been very generous with your insults towards me. I'm not angry at Hasbro; I simply don't believe a popular idea among fanboys and I have very good reasons to not do so, which I posted here.

As a matter of fact, unlike ALL of the detractors (kudos to the respectful discussion partners) I've laid out quite a few facts about Hasbro, its toy distribution process, and given a pretty thorough answer as to, "Why can't Hasbro be this honest with us?" the topic of this thread. I've actually given quite a few reasons exactly why they shouldn't be honest with collectors/fans, all while being accused of having some vendetta against a company that produces a great many products which I enjoy.

Unlike many here, I can separate a realistic look at business operations from blind borderline-religious devotion, and while that seems to have stirred them to serious amounts of butt-hurt and nerd rage, it is just a simple idea: there is far more information out there that is either not being publicized or is being ignored and I would like to see others be more factually well-informed, that's all. So for the curious, I hope you've seen some new information which will be helpful, to the respectful discussion partners, I thank you, and to the trolls, I assure you that your plastic robot toys and the company that makes them love you no less than it did before my comments were posted.

 

You raise some good points, many of which I have already brought up in this very thread. I have NOT said that Hasbro should cater more towards collectors; I have simply stated that the established belief among collectors about their buying power is distorted.

 

Automated CNC machining and resin molds don't translate directly to the costs of the high-impact steel molds that Hasbro uses, which are far more expensive. It was only a few years ago, within 5 at least, where the Hasbro guys at BotCon candidly dropped that rough price range, so I doubt the processes have changed too much. In theory, casting and recasting may be made possible, but such processes always lose detail in the transfer. I'm pretty sure they still form the steel plates directly.

And yes, Hasbro still stores the molds. They don't recycle them. That way they don't have to manufacture a new, precision steel mold from scratch five years down the road when they want to release a new recolour/exclusive or something.

And that still doesn't factor in the manpower, the costs of which aren't going to get any cheaper. They don't just contract out to anybody. They've got their own specific team of experts who've mastered the art of Transformers design. They're going to pay those guys a pretty decent rate to make sure they stay with the Transformers brand, and not jump ship to Mattel or Bandai or something.

See, that's not the argument you've been giving at all.

If it were, then I'd be largely agreeing with you. Hasbro is not beholden to outline their methodologies and trade secrets just because their fans are starting to get a little uppity. That's just business, and the nature of competition.

But when I joined this conversation, you were trying to paint Hasbro as being deceptive, which is far from the case. As far as large corporations go, they are remarkably transparent with their fans, using the Club and BotCon to share all manner of internal stories with the masses, and give advanced sneak peaks at product lines and the like.

They had no obligation at all to explain DotM and Prime FE's sudden cancellation, and while perhaps not as timely as the Star Wars letter that kicked this discussion off (because at the time, they were still refusing to give up the hunt for retailer support, so the lines weren't officially off the cards), it was still unnecessary, and still provided enough time for fans to hunt down the Japanese releases if they were desperate enough.

Quite frankly, your suspicions are misplaced. It's one thing to be cynical, and not completely swallow all the rosy projections for the future that Hasbro feeds us, but it's another thing entirely to be imagining ulterior motives behind everything they do. Massaging demographics numbers and whatnot like you've been going on about, to dubious ends.

There absolutely no reason to act like that, because Hasbro's statements generally jibe with reality. DotM and FE's cancellation did coincide with a massive economic downturn, and a glut of product on the shelves that saw to retailers ordering less product. If the adult fan demographics were high enough, then Hasbro should be able to convince Wal-Mart et al to relax their standards, and be able to release things like Masterpieces mass retail instead of just store-exclusives, and possibly beyond. But obviously, as that hasn't happened, Hasbro doesn't have the clout to make that call, and so they still struggle. But they're still supporting the Classics/Universe/Generations/etc. lines despite lack of mainstream media support for those characters, so obviously they still put some faith in the fans, while still tailoring the lines to be suitable for the main target audience as well.


So please, do get off your high horse and stop acting like you're a shepherd among a flock of sheep. We are quite capable of critical thought on our own, thank you very much. There is absolutely no reason not to take Hasbro on their word, because reality will back them up on it. We're not talking about some shady investment company, that can hide behind mountains of paperwork and maybe not get caught. This is a manufacturing firm. If they were being duplicitous about the nature of their product, then it would show through the quality of their product, through consumer support, and through their quarterly investor's reports and other market analysis.


If this is instead one of those classic "I'm a fan who's smarter than everyone, including an entire army of accountants and market analysts, and if Hasbro would listen to me, they'd be making a billion more dollars" ploys, pssht, we've heard that one before. Quite simply, time will vindicate you on that one. Their investor's reports will either continue to show steady rises, with credit to the Transformers brand, showing that they know what they're doing, despite Fandom's insistence otherwise. If we instead see a meteoric fall, well then there may or may not be merit to the Fandom's inane rantings. But either way, Hasbro will adjust their business strategy to cope, just as Mattel has after they lost retailer support.

 

So, I'm supposed to take it at face value that you have all of this information firsthand and it is accurate, especially since your first sentence makes it plain that you have no idea what CNC actually IS? 

I know... I know... You're just trolling and making up MORE BS now, but seriously, would it kill you to just provide ANY reputable source? 

I'm stopping right here and not dignifying your BS straw-man, made up version of things I haven't said with any kind of reasonable debate because you have made it abundantly clear that your intent is ONLY to troll.

 

Are you implying that collectors are contributing more to Hasbro's sales? Because in my part of the world (Asia) kids are still the main customers. How do I know because I know of 'inside' info. And my sources have been so spot-on with reissues and Masterpiece releases.

Releasw plans change and Fort Max's reissue was actually pushed back due to uncertain economic conditions.

mx-01 was also correct in stating the reasons why FE was not originally not released in the US. There was a 'glut' and US retailers didn't want more TF toys clogging the shelves like DOTM toys were. That's why the 'final' wave (Wheeljack) didn't hit retail in the US but enjoyed Asia release.

I may have some disagreements with mx-01 but the dude's no troll and he is spot on with the mould information.

It has been stated a couple of times that Hasbro/Takara retains and stores the moulds and they are used a lot of times. So much so, that some have been damaged like the G1 Jazz mould.

And damage or loss of the moulds, have prevented TakaraTomy from reissuing the remaining original G1 cars (Wheeljack, Sunstreaker & Mirage) as well as the Dinobots.You can find the above information on the internet.