Oh you. You so clever.

 

I think the complaints over differences between early Hasui and now Inferno are way over exaggerated. They still look like the same line. If you put a Mitsubishi Fuso next to a nice sports car there is an inherent amount of complexity difference just based on the original intended design conceits. One is utilitarian and overly simplistic in real life while the other is built for beauty. I believe that when/if you caricature something you should eliminate unecessary detail that detracts from the overall iconic impression.

Any slavish adherence to a vehicle that detracts from the clear iconic read of the G1 character is a mistake in my opinion. Any extra realism that adds kibble and confusing greebles detracts from the spirit of the character.

Hasui injected some life into the line but by no means did he "nail" it. In my opinion Sideswipe does not capture the character model with the same joy and life that Inferno does. It's a wonderful alt mode and brilliant engineering but the character feels absent, lifeless.

Takara has been evolving into the MP line, the carbots admittedly Hasui said were pitched as an appeal to car enthusiasts and the old school Transformers fans. Hasui was trying to find a way to sell this new direction to the higher ups and was unsure himself of the outcome. The real world car aspect is more applicable to cars that are iconic. While there are some gear heads who collect Transformers and I myself really dig the attention to detail in Sideswipes Alt mode, many fans want the "essence" of the G1 character and not a bunch of alt mode greebles hanging off the robot mode. Which you could add to Inferno to make his Alt mode more palatable to some fans.

Megatron is the perfect example where personality and character trump the real world gun mode.

Yes, the alt mode should capture the caricatured essence whether it is based on a real object or just the G1 model sheet but, for instance, forcing Bumblebee into a real VW while neat and Bee being one of my fav MP, in my opinion, was less than ideal because it doesn't capture the spirit or essence of the G1 material. It's shoe horning and altering the source material to fit Takaras narrow vision for the cars as set forth by Sideswipe.

The licensing is an added prestige and appeal, I fully realize and appreciate, I think the Datsun mold is beautiful and have every version.

I personally think Takara is evolving and growing with the line. As confidence in the line and budgets increase Takara is finally doing what Bandai or many many other Japanese toy companies have done for years. Giving us options, accessories, toon or more toy interchangeable parts.

Transformations that continue to show brilliance of innovation and ingenuity and increasingly more loving character portraits with expressive features that bring the G1 personas to life like a good action figure should.

We are in the midst of the toy Renaissance with Ninja Turtles getting animation accurate toys and every other movie variant. With Dragon Ball Z, Thundercats, He-man, Batman the animated series, etc and on and on, all getting stunning treatment in action figure form.

Takara is finally catching up to the rest of the industry in the last few years. I hope they continue to find that balance and keep trying things and evolving because I think it's been a net positive for the vitality of the MP line.

 

How so?

 

I think the toon accuracy is TT trying to fit in with the other toy companies in Japan. Companies like Good Smile, Figma, Bandai(SoC) All produce figures that are super animation accurate with tons of accessories. Opening up MP Ironhide for the first time felt a lot like cracking into a figma figure with the alternate faces, accessories, awesome paint job and different hands. I assume this is just what sells, the Masterpiece line had to become Takaras version of Bandai's Soul of Chogokin or S.H.F line.

(IMO)
I like the toon accuracy a lot, I have always wanted my transformers to look like those ceramic Hard Hero bust from a few years back, now they kinda do and they actually transform. I don't think it's a mistake or that it's ruining the line. There are plenty of 3rd party options that mimic MP10's aesthetic, can you really be upset with TT for shifting design directions. Hell, even Fanstoys started making their figures more toon accurate.

 

Seems to be doing well for MOTUC too. Aftermarket prices of the Filmation line are ridiculous but poor distribution /supply may also contribute.

 

Welp, hopefully in 10 years after MP+ line has run its course, we will see a rebooted line. They would call it the Hasui(MP---) line. Looking forward to that!

 

Personally I love the more toon accurate bot modes like Ironhide and Inferno and really don't get why people are loosing their minds and talking hyperbole about shampoo bottles over one or two smooth flat panels on a bot (surrounded by all the usual hinges, joints, splits, seams, edges, vehicle kibble, etc, that makes them look every bit the feasible complex alien robot they always did and nothing at all like those PVC statues or shampoo bottles). I find a few clean panels elegant, restrained, streamlined, attractive even - an interesting visual contrast to the busy mechanical areas. Smooth, clean and streamlined can also invoke high tech, futuristic, high end, can it not? Befitting of super advanced space robots. Just happens that also looks like an old cartoon I loved as a kid.  

Why do we need greeble for greeble's sake shoved at us on every square inch to say high-end figure? To feel we are getting value for money from the guy who has to model it, and maximum machining time at the mould maker? Stickered up G1 toys look childish and tacky, imho (and so do some 3P MPs who copy too much of it, and MP Artfire!) - the excess sculpted and stickered detail their to hide their crude simplicity. MP figures don't need to do that. It's OK for them to look refined, imho.

Anyway I might be rambling!   What I mainly wanted to say was despite the above, I still totally agree with the quoted post! I really hope the real car detail stays for all the remaining Diaclone guys. Inferno should be as far as they go with letting bot mode toon accuracy intrude on a vehicle alt mode. Even I would admit that on balance a chrome rear bumper with tail lights would have improved Inferno at a more than acceptable cost to the toon accuracy of his bot feet. Alert+ or Inferno with toon parts is too far for me so I hope it is always optional.

And beyond Diaclone I would hope minibots stick to the precedent set by Bumblebee, and even those without an identified alt mode (Huffer, Brawn, etc) get a realistic looking vehicle treatment like MP-10 so they fit in with the current figures.

I wonder about figures like Blitzwing. A couple of years ago I would have said yeah they'll try to make a realistic as possible MIG 25 and the tank mode too, with toon as possible bot mode. Business as usual. That's how they did the Seekers, MP-10, MP Bee, etc. Like, for example FT is doing with their Blitzwing. Now though I wonder if they'll just stick rigidly to his animation model alt modes? I hope to god they wont cos that'll just result in the G1 toy upscaled for alt modes with a toon accurate robot, such is the way the S2 models were drawn. Not sure if I'd like that at all! Astrotrain would suffer a bit from that approach too.

Really wonder how they would be handled now. Gotta just keep the faith everything will continue to be awesome I guess!  

 

They'd pretty much have to announce that MP10+ by the end of this month to get it out with Megatron in any kind of close timing. I don't doubt they'll do it at some point, but it's likely too close to manage otherwise for right now.

 

Considering they're reissuing MP-10 to come out in April with MP Megs, I can't see them doing MP-10+ in addition at the same time. If it happens, they'll wait till the reissue has had a chance to sell.

 

I'm not as diehard that everything needs to work with everything before it. I want to see innovation and evolution. I want to continue to be surprised and delighted, not demand that they "make it like they used to". People are now discussing the merits of the new MP Megatron and even excited for a new MP Optimus that hues closer to this new direction. If Takara were constantly looking back we wouldn't have Inferno or Megatron.

There is risk of course with any choice, but it's been worth it, IMO.

Do I necessarily want Jazz or Mirage to deviate far from the other cars? Not completely, but as I said in my previous post, I don't think Sideswipe, despite it's promise, really captures the character in the same way Ironhide, Inferno, Megatron or hell even MP Optimus Primal.

I think small touches of chrome or translucent bits and metallic paint are fine, I'm not suggesting completely flat finishes, just that the essence needs to be honored. I felt the loss most strongly with Wheeljack. That busy deco really reduced the impression of his character. That is the beauty of the + releases and I hope we see more and that they continue to experiment with how far or not to go with a + version release.

In the end, it's important to reference something when designing, it makes your work more convincing. BUT I draw a strong distinction between Believability and "Realism". I want believability, just enough suspension of disbelief that I can enjoy the fictional creation. Realism is boring and rote, I want the artistry and craftsmanship that is found when you balance the needs of the medium you are working in.

For me it's generally:
1: Capture the essence of the character/alt
2: Fun, intuitive engineering
3: Articultion

Good news, we are getting more and more of that as we go! Bring it on Takara!

 

And now, for my take on the cartoon/not-cartoon debate, because everyone else is doing it!   Uh ... this is gonna be long. Novel long. So I'm going to spoiler mark it so people don't have to scroll forever.

Spoiler

So, I was born in 1980, which probably makes me a little younger than the average person that grew up with G1. I was also a spoiled-ass kid, so I got a fair amount of transformers, though to be fair maybe a quarter to a third of them came from flea markets. Those same flea markets also ended up netting me a lot of 70s and 80s Marvel comics, including Transformers. And I had a tv in my room. So ... neener neener?

But because of my young age, and because when I was in kindergarten some jackass kid threw a fist sized rock at my head hard enough to knock me right the eff out, my childhood memories can be pretty fuzzy or outright missing at times. So like ... I remember being at my aunt's house one time, maybe for my birthday, maybe for Christmas and having a Brawn in my hand. I vaguely remember being a store and seeing Ironhide. I remember shopping at Lionel Playworld. I remember watching the cartoon. I remember seeing the movie. I remember struggling to stay awake Saturday mornings after the initial run of the show, and seeing the Powermaster Prime into bits. But a lot of times it's more I remember that I did them than remembering the memory itself, if that makes sense. Still, when I watch season one or two of the cartoon now I can clearly remember scenes here and there.

On the other hand, having the physical toys in hand, and have the comics in hand, they made a longer lasting impact. So in general while I probably came to Transformers through the cartoon first, I remember the toys and comics better. Which is probably why I really like *Masters and Pretenders and futuristic alt modes a lot more the average vocal G1 fan. But one thing I do remember clearly was wishing the toys looked more like the cartoon. And honestly, the character models in the comics started looking pretty close to the cartoon models after the first few issues (though sometimes more detailed), and after the cartoon ended they were often drawn with an eye towards how they might have looked in the cartoon. So while I prefer the fiction of the comic, visually I didn't make much of a distinction. Except maybe colors.

Now, I've stated a few times in the past, including just the other day that I prefer a real world alt mode Cliffjumper. Even I realize that seems pretty contradictory to what I've said above. I can't really explain it beyond I like the real Porsche model more aesthetically than the penny racer (even though Cliffy was one of my favorites as a kid, both toy and cartoon), and that Sideswipe/Lambor was the first Masterpiece I got from Takara, my only previous MPs being the Hasbro releases of Rodimus (had to have them comic/toy colors you know) and the Hasbro Thundercracker from the MP-11 mold. But honestly ... I'd take Cliffy either way.

Anyways, that long diatribe I guess is to help understand where I'm coming from when I say - I don't care too much if it's more cartoon based or toy based, as long as I think it looks good. And while I'm a little iffy on Ratchethide and Tracks (Road Rage looks much better imo), I have yet to see a post MP-12 MP that I disliked or hated. Hell, Inferno and Primal are utterly glorious and easily my favorite of the line, maybe even out of everything Transformers related over the past several years. Not that I have every MP post-12. My Inferno is using the cartoon chest and gun hand, but that's because I'm not a fan of chrome. But I'm okay with the shift in direction overall.

Oh, also due to my background

Spoiler

FIBRIR! Tee hee.

 

To be completely honest, when I place Inferno next to Wheeljack or Prowl, I don't feel like Inferno is really lacking in detail compared to them. I mean he's a bit flatter, but I don't think it's some terrible thing that makes them incompatible with each other. Hell, the aesthetics of the Generations line from 2010 until now, or even 2010 - 2014 if you don't want to count CW and TR vary far more drastically than the MP line has since MP-10's release.

I like Sideswipe but I agree he feels a lot more lifeless than a lot of the later MPs.

 

Sideswipe was such a non-entity on the show that I don't really even remember his "essence" or personality, so the MP toy is just fine in my opinion.

I know some might prefer a faux chest to make him look more like the cartoon but I really like robots that are made out of obvious car parts, like Prowl's chest and Bumblebee's feet.

But I think the toon model of Sideswipe basically looked a lot like the toy. Close enough. Like Prowl and Bluestreak.

It's the stupid vans that had no heads, or the Decepticon leader with a giant trigger crotch, or even Bumblebee with his robotic face and tires on his arms, that the vintage toys really felt lacking. And finally having those characters in toon form is awesome. Sideswipe doesn't feel as "different" to me cause he basically already looked like the toy.

The best thing to me about Ironhide and Inferno is certainly the plethora of option parts. It really makes me wish that had been the case with Wheeljack, with toon and toy head and launchers, instead of toon only. Or Tracks with optional toy head and gun. If they re-released them with those parts NOW I'd be pissed off cause I'd probably be a sucker enough to buy them.

 

I definitely agree with you to a large extent, but for me realism in alt mode is certainly very important particularly for the vehicles. I think it's cos that's probably the main thing I loved about Transformers - the cool robots turned into realistic vehicles. I see MPs as vastly superior Transformers toys, and in most cases, for me, that means a more realistic, refined alt mode and a more cartoon accurate bot mode.

But like you - not excessive realism if it comes at too much cost to capturing the character though. That's why I don't really like any of the 3P Infernos - they might look more like real fire trucks, but they dont scream Inferno to me, whereas TT Inferno does. He's just realistic enough overall for me with the accurate cab and adequately believable back end. I could accept Bee being realistic in alt mode because even a realistic Beetle seems chibi-like and captured his character enough. But I hated Badcube Brawn for retconning him into that 60's Landrover - all it said to me was old English countryside farm vehicle - a million miles from Brawn.

So although feeling similar to you, I'm obviously accepting of alt modes being more off-toon model than you. Perhaps because I see character depicted more by the bot mode and the alt mode just the cool thing they turn into? So like I didn't mind realistic Beetle Bee I also dont mind Wheeljack's realistic deco, for example, because for me they both nail the character by their bot modes.

For me, going too far away from realism for alt modes ends up at Toyworld Bii. Might capture the character, but I hate that thing!!   I hope to god future TT minibots dont end up anything like that! And as I said in my previous post, for the same reasons I have some trepidations about how current TT might handle a charcter like Blitzwing. Would be interested on your take on approaching Blitzwing. Would you like them to eschew realism and stick rigidly to the animation models for his alt modes, bearing in mind that almost literally gives you the G1 toy alt modes, such is the way S2 was drawn?

 

I'd say Sideswipe is more cartoon orientated. He has white thighs and forearms with no wings like the toy. It's just the chest width but that's something that never bothered me personally although a collapsing gimmick similar to MMC Trailbreaker would be VERY cool and make him even more accurate.

It's a shame TT never went all out for Anime Red Alert as I'm sure ppl would have bought a Sideswipe version too for toy nostalgia.

 

The + discussion and talk awhile back about what color a Trailbreaker would be made me wonder...assuming the + line does become at least a periodic thing, and if car companies prefer real-life colors be used when granting the license, if an initial Trailbreaker would be black, and Hound a darker military green, and then + versions of at least Trailbreaker (and maybe Hound) come later to "perfect" the 'toon body the figure will likely already have with its actual 'toon colors.

Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, but I do wonder if Takara regrets not:

- factoring in toy & 'toon options earlier (Smokescreen, Tracks, Wheeljack...even yellow eyes/visors for Optimus/Soundwave and alternate faces for the Seekers)
- molding in door arms at MP-14 or just rejiggering the door/arm transformations to make door vs plain arms an option on every version of the mold (like door vs no wings for a hypothetical Jazz) - You'd have them not only complete the 'toon look come 14+, but they would've made all the toy-based Diaclone redecos & G2 Sideswipe that much more accurate.

I don't fault them for being a bit conservative early and not including those options given the cost and not knowing how successful the line would become, but they at least had an inkling by the time they had to push Prowl & Streak's release dates a bit to factor in demand. Lacking those options doesn't take away from my enjoyment of earlier figures, but I would've looooooved things like the battle mask for Tracks/Road Rage being available and other little things like that, and I feel I notice things like that more as the line goes on and accessory counts grow.

 

I think there is a middle ground between a Takara VW Bee approach and the Toyworld Bii approach. What I'm getting at goes all the way down to the important model sheet details.

We saw it first with the solution for the wonderful wedge shape show accurate MP Ultra Magnus foot design vs. the Lambo mold feet being separate floating planks with a piece of the rear of the car above, despite the G1 toy doing it better.
I flipped when I saw Magnus' feet it's that charming simplicity that the original designs had!

The Datsuns sort of do it if you are looking at the foot from the inside ankle. Most 3rd parties still can't engineer an appealing blocky foot like Ironhide or Inferno and it's something that Takara could have continued to ignore but I'm SOOO glad they are pushing to get closer to the "essence" of the original designs.

Sideswipe accommodates a very low profile, wide Countach form factor by giving us plank feet, a micro head sculpt that even required the helmet to split just to fit into the small space and a very wide chest/shoulder. All things that push away from his on screen design.
How much width could Takara sacrifice to reduce the chest, how much height could they add to allow more room for proper blocky feet and a larger head?

I don't know that answer but I think if it were at least a consideration at the time Hasui was creating him, they could find a tasteful appropriate balance that would honor both modes adequately.

Hasui stated that he made the conscious choice NOT to hide Prime's tires in his lower legs and when I look at Sideswipe I get the same vibe. His priorities were weighted toward that Countach alt because, IMO, it was the linch pin for the new direction he had pitched to the decision makers at Takara/Tomy.

As far as Blitzwing, I think my philosophy if I take a moment to think about all this and design in general...It's a bit the same way I feel about Superhero comics vs. Superhero movies, one I love, the other I don't care much for. I don't need for my fantasy to be made completely realistic and feasible because that defeats part of the escape for me.

When I take any movie character from Kup to Springer to Wreck Gar, again, I'm looking for believability. None of these designs have a 1 to 1 real world analogue, so we have to accept the design as put forth, BUT the designers if they were smart, referenced real world design and mechanics in order to arrive at their fantastical invention. Blitzwing is not different. Take cues from reality but don't blow the fantasy. Don't "Dark Knight" everything into oblivion. Save some whimsy and imagination.

And further, personally, I would rather approach even the carbots this way. Believable but not slavish.

For me, what is important is that the original creative expression, regardless of how simplistic, be honored. Because, for better or worse, that is what many fans fell in love with. We have almost 30 years of reimaginings in this franchise, but we've never had a line that tried to recreate faithfully the on screen characters.

I want to see where this could lead!!

 

I've never had much allegiance to the cartoon models, since in a real world sense the only reason the animation models were so much simpler was because they were easier to draw that way. I've always felt that with more time and budget, the animators would have used more details on the 'bots. They also didn't have to worry about realistic transformations; they could use a lot of fudging there. Additionally, those models could be fairly fluid depending on who drew any given scene.

What's important to me in a MP figure is:

- Realistic humanoid proportions in 'bot mode. (No overlong arms, overshort legs, &c. like the G1 toys typically had.)
- A relatively faithful representation of the cartoon 'bot models, but not necessarily a slavish devotion to them. (Giving Ratchethide a head, Optimus his general chest look, &c.)
- A detailed, realistic alt mode that's in scale with the others, within reason.
- A high degree of articulation, with stability and durability.

I don't mind having vehicle detailing appear on the 'bot as long as it doesn't radically alter its overall look and proportions. In fact I think it adds more robotic character to the figures.

 

I like the more toon accurate direction the MP line is taking but I also liked the old direction. This has me thinking of a lot DC's various merchandise lines like the various Batman Black and White statues based on different artists takes. why can't we have both design directions and then some?

 

It's a nice idea, but pretty different as well. The licensing fees are per use, so they'd be a big challenge, and it would probably risk diluting the market by making multiple different versions of 1 character at one time. Batman is so popular that hey can feed multiple wholly different veins of fandom with different products. Transformers have it to some extent with those high-end posable statues from Metal Factory (I think). You'll notice that those are just Prime, Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream, etc over and over. You won't see a character like Inferno there.

Basically, that'd be insanely cool, and I'd dig it too, but the economics of it are not on our side.