How to tell the new KO Reissues apart from authentic toys.

Cornholiocon · 07-13-2009, 06:31 PM

So I just got a KO Grimlock and while it's a pretty solid copy of the original, I can't find an online pic that shows where the Autobot rub-on insignia goes. Can any of you please let me know where this should be applied (and provide a photo if possible)?
Thanks.

Napjr · 07-13-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evertransformin

cool, so which do you think looks better in classic primes hand?

I think the downscaled MP, just because has a little more detail from what i can remember

LigerPrime · 07-13-2009, 09:35 PM

Chrisr291 - whoa! That could make sense why these KO manufacturers are so brazen! I just want HasTak to reissue the toys as I want better quality stuff.

chrisr291 · 07-21-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LigerPrime

Chrisr291 - whoa! That could make sense why these KO manufacturers are so brazen! I just want HasTak to reissue the toys as I want better quality stuff.

Yep! If your Patent is over.... its free game!

RoboticPlanet · 07-21-2009, 07:04 PM

IANAL, but I don't think there's ever been a dispute about the patent describing the toy itself. Rather it's the use of copyrighted and trademarked material stamped on the figures and used on the packaging that Hasbro can go after.

TeletranOne · 07-21-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JunkersHVN

I got a few of the new semi-unofficial/pseudo-official Chinese KO Transformers recently to try and figure out how to tell them apart from the real vintage toys and I figured I'd share my findings here.

So far I have received some of the Frenzy and Lazerbeak sets and the Ratbat and Frenzy set. I've also read reports on the Swoop remake and should be getting the weapons from one sometime soon to look at. I don't have the Optimus Prime set.

First a few of the basic things I've noticed firsthand and heard from other people that will help to point out the fakes:
Screws - The screws they use in these toys are all different and slightly cheaper than the original toys. You can tell by looking at them that they are pretty much the same quality as those found on the really cheap KO combiner sets.

Rubsigns - These are a dead giveaway. Outside of the fact that the surface seems to start peeling away on a lot of them, the artwork is usually off-center and doesn't look as crisp as the real rubsigns. They also use a different type of thermal surface that is more sensitive, so you barely touch them and the change color rather than having to hold a finger on them. They remind me of the repro rubsigns from Reprolabels with a better surface layer but worse artwork.

Diecast parts - Most of the diecast parts seem to have very thin paint applications on them compared to the originals and the paint is cheaper, so it tends to rub off a lot easier.

Now on to a few specifics I found on the cassettes:
One dead giveaway is the tape window stickers. They printed these all on the metallic stock instead of a matte stock like the originals, which gives them an incorrect mirror finish.

The colors on the Frenzy and Lazerbeak are pretty obviously wrong on some of the ones they released, but this was on purpose.

Ratbat is a LOT looser that the original. His wings, feet, claws, and head are all very loose. Also it is the painted version that should have come with gold weapons but the package has silver chrome weapons. Also the painted part is painted onto the screws as well when some of the screws on the original did not have paint on them. Ratbat's ears are identical to the original painted version, though - the color is slightly off if used in a stickered version and the pin holes are a bit smaller (a micro drill and pin vise fixes this though).

All the cassette weapons have various spots where the details were re-etched so that certain details end up smaller, thinner, or finer that the originals. This is hard to tell unless you compare them side-by side.

From what I've read and seen on Swoop there are a few indicators.
The rubsign is on the wrong wing, which is obvious even with the toy boxed.
The holes in the wings for the launchers are mismatched. One of the holes will hold the launcher fine but the other one is too big.
One of the pins that holds the beak and head parts together is too long, making it hard to transform the toy into robot mode without it catching on the metal chest piece.
The stickers that were originally factory-applied are on the sticker sheet instead of the toy itself.

The only one I know of for Optimus Prime is that the sticker that should be on the side of trailer is on the sticker sheet instead.

UPDATE: Spencer of Ages3andUp has also created a new website, KOTransformers, dedicated to comparisons between the originals and remakes. Check it out by clicking on the link above, or by copying this address into your address bar: KOTransformers

The Optimus Prime Knock Off, Wheeljack, Mirage, Prowl:

there is a "." or period not a ":" or colon, after the "ages _ and up" on the lower left front corner of the box.

Soundwave:

The "Does Not Play Cassettes" sentence to the right of the "ages_ and up" lingo along the bottom of the box is NOT present at all. IMPORTANT!!!: be SURE it's a "R" box. That means, look for a "R" above "The Transformers" on the top flap. NONE of the original pre Rubsign "TM" boxes ever had the phrase "Does Not Play Actual Cassettes" along the bottom, so on those ONLY (boxes with the "TM" stamped above The Transfomers on the top flap), it's 100% legit to have that missing. It looks to me like the counterfeiters used a Pre Rubsign Box for the template, but then, strangely, changed the TM to the later "R" designation for the top flap. They created some kinda hybrid pre-rub/rub box.

Grimlock:

Look for "Bomander" by his name...authentic will say "Commander"

Swoop:

Rubsign's NOT visible on the wing through the window because the counterfeits stuck the symbol on the opposite/wrong wing in the box.

Snarl:

His head and metal are the wrong color (black)

Sludge:

Really, Really tough. Some have the colon instead of period in the "ages_ and up" phrase on the lower left front. The biggest tell is that on the back of the box the entire left side was shaved/trimmed. Look at the tech spec, if the box edge outside the rectangle is only a few centemeters away, you've got a KO.

Slag:

Just look at his name in the lower left front corner, on the original, it says "TRANSFORMERS" above Slag's name on the front of the box. The counterfeit is missing this.

Lesser knowns:

Late 90s Chinese Knock off Megatron:

Look for little *** or asterisks throughout the styrofoam. They looks like star/snowflakes. Also, Megs has a rubsign on the wrong side as they copied the 1987 movie mail away Megatron. The box also has a slightly rougher cardboard that is eerily shiney, like the knock off Chinese Cyclonus boxes.

Knock off Devastator Giftset:

No grey border around the left side of the left 3 Constructicons like on the original.

Knock Off Cassettes:

All of them have SHINY, metal rivets you can see on the edges at the top and/or bottom of each cassette. All versions have this that I've seen. The originals have dull, darker colored rivets you cannot see well in a photo.

All Minibits except Bumblebee:

Hole Punch in the DEAD CENTER or card, not slightly shifted to the right.

For Bumblebee: The copyright is amputated on the back of the card and omits info the other minibots have.

Reflector: Look at the missiles, if the missiles do not have a platic tree that goes ALL the way around them, and only goes 3/4's of the way, leaving the tips sticking out with no plastic tree runner in front of them, it's a fake. Otherwise, if the missiles are removed from sprue, and the counterfeit seller applied the normally factory decals that come on a separate sheet with the KO, it's really tough to tell with just pics.

Metroplex: KO only came in POSTER boxed Metroplex boxes. If yours is NOT a poster box Metro, you're good. If it IS, just check the grid on the front and back of the box, is it easy to see over the black? If it is, you're golden, if it's hard to see and blends more, it could be a fake.

Cyclonus and Scourge: BOTH the late 90s Chinese KO and the 2005 KO's have ugly bubble margins around the figure, meaning, instead of a squared bubble with lotsa room for glue underneath to hold the bubble down, the bubbles are crudely cut in the shape of the toy with little room to glue. This is ALSO true for the Chinese re releases in the late 80's and early 90's of Springer, Snarl, Grimlock, Swoop, Sludge, Slag, Inferno, Tracks and Blitzwing.

Might Gaine · 07-27-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisr291

Can I ask you guys a question. I know tons of fans are up in arms over people creating GOOD looking KO's such as Wheeljack, Dinobots etc....

Anyhow... here is my question... So Hasbro patented their figures back in the 80's right? 84,85,86... etc... and a patent lasts for 20 years or so? Well, 20 years have passed so couldn't any company legally build these toys since the patent ran out?

I found some pics of the old Defensor patent and it was recorded way back in 85? Thus meaning.... in 2005... you could make the figure yourself at no risk. I'm I wrong here? I took Business law my freshman year in college and i'm sure thats how it works.

So maybe thats why Hasbro hasn't stepped in to stop any of these KO's Because they can't.

This is incorrect. While their patents may have expired, their copyright on the toys has not. The copyright will endure for at least 70 years.

Might Gaine · 07-27-2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeletranOne

Late 90s Chinese Knock off Megatron:

......

Cyclonus and Scourge: BOTH the late 90s Chinese KO and the 2005 KO's have ugly bubble margins around the figure, meaning, instead of a squared bubble with lotsa room for glue underneath to hold the bubble down, the bubbles are crudely cut in the shape of the toy with little room to glue. This is ALSO true for the Chinese re releases in the late 80's and early 90's of Springer, Snarl, Grimlock, Swoop, Sludge, Slag, Inferno, Tracks and Blitzwing.

There are no late 90's Chinese knockoffs. Chinese knockoffs started being made in 2005.

Any stock of G1 Transformers from China that was found in the late 90's was just dead stock from Hasbro's Chinese G1 from the early 90's.

Also, I know you're just trying to help, but a lot of your information is already covered earlier in this thread or in ID guides linked to directly from this thread.

TeletranOne · 07-30-2009, 12:56 PM

Actually, most of the details info I posted is not covered earlier in this thread, or by the guides, and there is a lot of mis information floating around about the Chinese "legitimate market" toys. There is significant speculation about those toys to prove otherwise, including their amputated box and figure copyrights, It is not known if these were officially licensed from Hasbro for production in China or not. The argument goes around and around, depending on which source you seek. Some people chalk them up to their Mexican early 90's counterparts, but regardless, there are sellers trying to pass them off as 1984-86 originals which I strongly disagree with. Some examples as I mentioned include The G1 Cyclonus, Scourge, and Bumblebee. Fred's page offers some insight on this as well. To add to the confusion, some of these toys were RE-re issued in 2005 using the Chinese molds yet again from the early nineties.(something this thread addressed, but again, no reference to their earlier bootlegged manifestations a decade earlier). These are generally well known (aka, highendtfs coverage of the counterfeir Beachcombers graded as originals). Some of the info I posted was redundnat, but only to thread together in one place a quick reference in one post for most collectors.

Melkava · 07-31-2009, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeletranOne

Actually, most of the details info I posted is not covered earlier in this thread, or by the guides, and there is a lot of mis information floating around about the Chinese "legitimate market" toys. There is significant speculation about those toys to prove otherwise, including their amputated box and figure copyrights, It is not known if these were officially licensed from Hasbro for production in China or not. The argument goes around and around, depending on which source you seek. Some people chalk them up to their Mexican early 90's counterparts, but regardless, there are sellers trying to pass them off as 1984-86 originals which I strongly disagree with. Some examples as I mentioned include The G1 Cyclonus, Scourge, and Bumblebee.

Those you spoke of are chinese tfs, produced for the Asia/Chinese/Europe/SEA market when takara finally shifted manufacturing to China.
These are legit as far as the collectors from these regions are concerned.
Not an expert in the South American stuffs, so no comments/insights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeletranOne

Fred's page offers some insight on this as well. To add to the confusion, some of these toys were RE-re issued in 2005 using the Chinese molds yet again from the early nineties.(something this thread addressed, but again, no reference to their earlier bootlegged manifestations a decade earlier). These are generally well known (aka, highendtfs coverage of the counterfeir Beachcombers graded as originals). Some of the info I posted was redundnat, but only to thread together in one place a quick reference in one post for most collectors.

The present KOs like Cassettes, Op, Dinobots, Mini-bots, Mirage, Wheeljack etc are all reversed-engineered & have nothing to do with the chinese molds.
The misconception by western collectors is that these Chinese tfs were bootleg. Even the term chinese reissue is technically wrong, they are not reissues.
The early 2000s takara reissues are reissues, TFC are reissues, & the Encores are reissues. The Chinese tfs were produced at a later stage compared to earlier US/Jp.
There might be slight differences in quality of make(which has been grossly exaggerated over the years), but this is because they were manufactured in different places.

e.g a launch iphone and the very same model produced months/years later just before a switch in production plant or launch of new model for a different region/market.
There will be a slight difference in quality, which is due to a different manufacturing location or raw material used. Does that make it a reissue?