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Episode 48 "Hard Knocks" Discussion

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Old 10-10-2012, 05:53 PM   #411
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Thank you


I definitely agree to that. I just hope he doesnt get like Cheetor in Beast Machines, where either he was second-guessing Optimus all the time or wishing he would be leader again. Given, that's a broad generalization, but personally i was annoyed with Cheetor a whole lot when that stuff happened.
Yeah, I didn't like him much during Beast Machines. Come to think of it, I don't like Beast Machines that much to being with.

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That's an insult to Cheetor and Animated Bumblebee.

Cheetor matured over time which is part of why I like Beast Wars so much. There was actually character development in that show. Anyway even at his most immature stage he was still more mature than Smokescreen. Cheetor may have rushed head first into battle without thinking several times but never when he was obviously out numbered. Plus Smokescreen as a member of the Elite Guard should be WAY more mature than he is. Cheetor was young and not a trained soldier so he had an excuse to be so immature. That's like comparing a 16 year old with the maturity of a 16 year old (Cheetor) to a 19 year old with the maturity of a 13 year old (Smokescreen).

Animated Bumblebee is another character who was also in Autobot boot camp for the Elite Guard but he never finished Boot Camp... yet he's still a better soldier than Smokescreen who actually did finish Boot Camp. If Smokescreen were in the Animated universe he would of been thrown out of the Elite Guard and probably would be out ranked by Bumblebee. Bumblebee at least had the potential to be in the Elite Guard and I think he would of been if it wasn't for Bulkhead screwing things up for him during boot camp. Smokescreen, he's in the Elite Guard already and I don't see any potential for him at all. He manages to screw everything up all on his own.

I think I preferred the Animated Elite Guard when they were all snobs and full of themselves talking down to other Autobots who weren't in the Elite Guard then Smokescreen who is more like someone the Animated Elite Guard would be talking down to. And yeah some were more full of themselves than others but they all had a bit of that "I'm better than you" attitude towards Optimus' team. Sentinel Prime was obviously the worst snob offender. Jazz was the least snobbish but when he first showed up he did seem to be trying to constantly out do Prowl. After that he was cool.
I think you missed my point about Smokescreen. He acts a lot like the way Cheetor did in the first season of Beast Wars. It wasn't until season two did Cheetor really begin to mature. Smokescreen's been on for only a handful of episodes, and so, like Cheetor, it will take time for him to mature (which I can picture happening if the writers don't kill him off after the Omega Key/whatever is extracted or otherwise used). I didn't mean it as an insult; I meant it as a complement, and it's one of the reasons I like Smokescreen because I'm reminded of Cheetor.

Again, I think you missed my point. Smokescreen did NOT get all the training he needed, under normal circumstances, to be an Elite Guard. He seems brash like Bumblebee is and that's where I see similar traits between the two. It was, again, not intended as an insult.

As for potential, he had the creative idea of using the Phase Shifter to knock Starscream out of the Apex Amour. He also has at least some competence in regards to combat, as evident in the various episodes. He just hasn't been able to finish his training.

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Old 10-10-2012, 06:42 PM   #412
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Ratchet: "Orion, look, there's Elita-One. You should totally ask her out."
Orion: "Well, I have been finding myself...intrigued by her lately." *cue epic speech voice* "It is paramount that I proceed to inquire about social activities with her."
Elita-One: "Hey, Orion. What's up?"
Orion: "I, uh, well... ahem..." *epic speech voice* "Elita, it stands to reason that you and I should develop our relationship past its current established point."
Elita: "What?"
Orion: *epic speech voice* "It is imperative that we, both you and I, descendants of the great and powerful Primus himself, begin a romantic relationship. I, AM ORION PAX, AND I-"
*Elita walks off*
Ratchet: "Well that could've gone better."
Orion: *epic speech voice* "I WILL go on a date with her. NO MATTER THE COST."

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Old 10-11-2012, 12:27 AM   #413
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I think you missed my point about Smokescreen. He acts a lot like the way Cheetor did in the first season of Beast Wars. It wasn't until season two did Cheetor really begin to mature.
No I think you misread. You might want to read that again. I said even at Cheetor's most immature stage he was still more mature than Smokescreen. I wasn't even comparing Smokescreen to season 2 Cheetor.

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Smokescreen's been on for only a handful of episodes, and so, like Cheetor, it will take time for him to mature (which I can picture happening if the writers don't kill him off after the Omega Key/whatever is extracted or otherwise used). I didn't mean it as an insult; I meant it as a complement, and it's one of the reasons I like Smokescreen because I'm reminded of Cheetor.
I don't really see much maturing happening in this series. Plus I see Smokescreen as more of a male robot version of Miko. Cheetor was a much better character than that.

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Again, I think you missed my point. Smokescreen did NOT get all the training he needed, under normal circumstances, to be an Elite Guard. He seems brash like Bumblebee is and that's where I see similar traits between the two. It was, again, not intended as an insult.
Optimus outright said "I see you received your training with the Elite Guard." looking at his insignias. Received is past tense. He said that he didn't get a proper graduation because of the war but that only means that they didn't have time to hold a ceremony not that he didn't actually finish boot camp.

Everything after that calls him a rookie and says he still needs training which is why I call him the walking plot hole. All that talk about him being untrained is exact opposite of his supposed Elite Guard origins.

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As for potential, he had the creative idea of using the Phase Shifter to knock Starscream out of the Apex Amour. He also has at least some competence in regards to combat, as evident in the various episodes. He just hasn't been able to finish his training.
He HAS finished his training. Optimus Prime outright said that when they first met. He has Elite Guard insignias, he wouldn't have them if he hadn't finished boot camp. And anyone can be a great warrior with a Phase Shifter. That's kinda like comparing someone with a bullet proof vest to someone without a bullet proof vest.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:52 AM   #414
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And anyone can be a great warrior with a Phase Shifter. That's kinda like comparing someone with a bullet proof vest to someone without a bullet proof vest.
Yeah no that comparison doesn't work.


Smokescreen I feel charitable towards because as a character he's displayed a personality beyond the various flavors of snarky smart arse. He has made some serious missteps (such as threatening that driver, and taking Jack on a raid or two) and as I recall, was dutifully given a smack for them. Justly deserved.

However, his attitude was utterly irrelevant to the failure for which Arcee (with the hypocrite meter sailing well past 11) decided to lecture him in the most unprofessional and condescending way possible.

Smokescreen was a bit hyped up and ready to go. As soon as they got there, Bulkhead got him to chill out and when Dreadwing appeared, Bulkhead ordered him to go and get the relic and Smokescreen complies basically immediately. Starscream blindsiding him while he's moonlighting as Johnny Quick was not something that Smokescreen, or indeed anyone in Team Prime, could have foreseen or countered unless they could see the future.

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Old 10-11-2012, 01:17 AM   #415
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could have foreseen or countered unless they could see the future.
*Looks at Alpha Trion* Didn't see that one coming did you?
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:31 AM   #416
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In regard to Arcee's lecture of Smokescreen being too harsh and condescending: don't forget how Smokescreen rubbed Arcee and Bumblebee's noses in the failure of their mission earlier in the same episode. The difference is that Smokescreen was immaturely teasing his comrades for being unsuccessful, whereas Arcee was lecturing Smokescreen on how sometimes missions end in failure, noting that this has been the case for herself as well as everyone else, including Optimus.

While Smokescreen was down on himself at the time of his mission's failure, he was nevertheless still fixated on glory and showboating, so Arcee's lecture was justified to a degree. Did she go too far? Yes. She should have ended the lecture when Optimus told her to; Smokescreen might not have run off then, and might've instead taken the time to reflect. However, let's not misunderstand her intentions. She was not trying to be condescending or rude; she was just trying to get Smokescreen to grow up and start taking teamwork more seriously. They're at war and Arcee has lost two close comrades already. There's simply no place for Smokescreen's recklessness--and whaddya know, Smokescreen's been kidnapped. Case in point--Smokescreen's rash impulses have put him in mortal peril.

I like Smokescreen, but come on--you have to admit he was being very immature in this episode. Say what you will about Arcee, but she only had everyone's best interests in mind, not least of all Smokescreen's.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:44 AM   #417
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In regard to Arcee's lecture of Smokescreen being too harsh and condescending: don't forget how Smokescreen rubbed Arcee and Bumblebee's noses in the failure of their mission earlier in the same episode. The difference is that Smokescreen was immaturely teasing his comrades for being unsuccessful, whereas Arcee was lecturing Smokescreen on how sometimes missions end in failure, noting that this has been the case for herself as well as everyone else, including Optimus.

While Smokescreen was down on himself at the time of his mission's failure, he was nevertheless still fixated on glory and showboating, so Arcee's lecture was justified to a degree. Did she go too far? Yes. She should have ended the lecture when Optimus told her to; Smokescreen might not have run off then, and might've instead taken the time to reflect. However, let's not misunderstand her intentions. She was not trying to be condescending or rude; she was just trying to get Smokescreen to grow up and start taking teamwork more seriously. They're at war and Arcee has lost two close comrades already. There's simply no place for Smokescreen's recklessness--and whaddya know, Smokescreen's been kidnapped. Case in point--Smokescreen's rash impulses have put him in mortal peril.

I like Smokescreen, but come on--you have to admit he was being very immature in this episode. Say what you will about Arcee, but she only had everyone's best interests in mind, not least of all Smokescreen's.
Again, Smokescreen's attitude is a problem, but Bulk got him to pack it in on the mission and it bore no relevance to his failure in the field. The lecture really should have come from Optimus Prime, not his moronic underling.

And last I checked, there isn't anything intrinsically dangerous about going out for some air to reflect on some well made points about your behavior.

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Old 10-11-2012, 01:56 AM   #418
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The lecture really should have come from Optimus Prime, not his moronic underling.
I don't even have the words to respond to that... Arcee, moronic? Why does it matter who says it? How would the lecture have been any truer coming from Optimus rather than Arcee? Wouldn't it have hurt Smokescreen's feelings even more if Optimus had been the one to rip him a new one?

I just don't understand.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:00 AM   #419
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Again, Smokescreen's attitude is a problem, but Bulk got him to pack it in on the mission and it bore no relevance to his failure in the field. The lecture really should have come from Optimus Prime, not his moronic underling.
Why should it only be Optimus who scolds members of Team Prime, though? Just because he's the leader? Does that mean no other member of the team is allowed to do anything if another member isn't behaving like a team player?

I'm training this kid at my job and he's totally useless. He just stands around and doesn't do any work. Should I wait around for my boss to finally say something to him? Would I be completely out of line like Arcee supposedly was if I were to tell him to get his ass in gear?

Smokescreen is basically like a trainee for a job and all of Team Prime is training him for his job of being a member of their team, not just Optimus. Each one of them, including Arcee, is responsible for trying to shape him into the best team member he can be.

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Old 10-11-2012, 02:02 AM   #420
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I don't even have the words to respond to that... Arcee, moronic? Why does it matter who says it? How would the lecture have been any truer coming from Optimus rather than Arcee? Wouldn't it have hurt Smokescreen's feelings even more if Optimus had been the one to rip him a new one?

I just don't understand.
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It would certainly had sounded less snide and come across as discipline rather than a 'told you so' opportunity. And if it came from Optimus Prime it would in one fell swoop start making him look like a more active leader, give Smokescreen some actual incentive to really take it to heart and satisfied the need to give Smokescreen the kick in the arse we both agree that he needs.

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I'm training this kid at my job and he's totally useless. He just stands around and doesn't do any work. Should I wait around for my boss to finally say something to him? Would I be completely out of line like Arcee supposedly was if I were to tell him to get his ass in gear?
If I was your boss I'd be wondering why you haven't done so already, and if you have and he's still not getting the memo, then yes. Get the fucking boss.

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