I don't think Transformers Prime is dumbed down. It just makes some extremely poor choices, in my opinion.

 

I wouldn't call Prime dumbed down. Sure, sometimes it goes in boring and predictable directions, but it's still one of the better shows you can watch right now.

 

I'm curious how many people claiming the writers lack skill have actually looked up the writers for the show. It shares multiple writers in common with TFA. Looking through the list, most of the writing staff has contributed to shows that are way above average. The actual issue behind the lack of cohesion may well simply be TOO MANY writers.

 

But other shows have plenty of writers and can still be cohesive. The producers have the say on the contents and direction, so they are probably to blame for the general state of Prime. There is obviously something wrong with the whole setup.

However, lack of cohesion still doesn't totally excuse how the writing is handled. Beast Wars has a bunch of standalones that explore character, give thoughtful treatments, and just simply handle ideas well. The writers of Prime have had many opportunities to really make something out of what they had to work with. Yet loads of episodes are squandered.

The way the whole show is handled - by multiple people - is poor. And if the writers really are capable of doing better, why on earth don't they?

 

I disagree that the show was poorly handled overall. This is not what this post is about nor does that mean I think it is a perfect show, I have never seen a perfect show in my life to be honest, but just wanted to get that out before answering that question so my position is clear.



Writing is just ONE aspect of TV media. There are many other things that come into factor of a TV show's production. There are outter-party demands such as executives and censors, there is budget, there is production time line, there are channel demands, in our franchise particular case there are toy selling demands, even physical disasters can end up factoring into the final product like when the natural disasters in japan affected the animation company that does the show and probably even MORE factors that I can't remember and MORE factors that we will never know because not everything is revealed to the public.

It is unfair and hasty to blame a single person or limited group for something like that because it REALLY is a hellish medium, it is by no doubt fulfilling to those that work with but they are always being challenged by everything around them to make sure the final animation ends up on TV safe and sound.

And just like that it would be unfair and hasty to find a sole answer for anyone that ever asks "why on earth don't they" because there is none that we can be sure of. Even if we were in the actual Hasbro office where all decisions happen it would still be very hard to pinpoint what led to a final product that didn't please this particular viewer of it and etc.

 

I'd say more "watered down" than dumbed down, so much potential squandered.

At this point I'm just waiting for the damn thing to finish, anything that impresses me I'll take as a bonus.

 

People tend to forget about similar issues in Beast Wars, probably because the whole thing is so fixed in our minds now. If that show were winding down right now instead of Prime, some of the complaints would be:

Cheetor had a spotlight episode where he learned not to rush into danger without orders. How come he wasn't any different in the episodes after that?

Waspinator was something of an actual threat in the first episode.. And then never again.

They had just started to develop Tigatron, Airazor, and their relationship, only to have them abducted by aliens. Wasted potential. And isn't the cast small enough already?

Didn't even bother developing Scorponok. What a waste!

Predacons randomly killed off by accident when there could have been an epic fight? What a waste.

Between the pointless Predacon character deaths, frequent dismemberment, Tarantulas'... hobbies, shooting Optimus Prime in the head, Megatron suddenly spouting scripture... Why's this show got to try so hard to be dark, edgy and serious?

So, we can fish around in the Allspark and pull out our dead friends. But not Dinobot, the single best character on the show. I mean fuck that guy, right?

But hey, bringing Dinobot back would just make his sacrifice meaningless, so maybe they shouldn't. Aaaand they bring him back anyway, kinda, except crappy. So now they ruined his death AND the character. Way to go!

They teased us with Tripredacus and then didn't even show him. Wasted opportunity.

They introduced Tigerhawk only to kill him off immediately. A complete waste, AND still a waste of Tigatron and Airazor.

Wow, and that whole Vok storyline didn't really end up going anywhere. That was kinda random. They built the mystery up over all three seasons and then "whoops! Sorry guys, we ran out of time to go anywhere with this. Ciao!"


And that's off the top of my head. I'm sure there would be lots more.

 

Depends on what you mean "made to sell toys" Given how Sunrise make's it shows it's functionally closer to how say a non-toy commerical based series is made. That is they let the guys make a show and then they have Bandai make the toys based on that. Not really any different from say how Doctor Who is currently made. Everyone knows form the start of a season toys will be made, but it never interferes with the making of the show.

Most of the time when people say something is made to sell toys they mean the toy company is actively in charge and calling shots on how a show should go.

 

According to the anime directors I've heard talk about it (I've had the pleasure of meeting Yasuhiro Imagawa and Shinichiro Watanabe and hearing them speak), it's different from that. Rather than the production staff (ala Doctor Who) or the toy company (Transformers) having full control, there's an almost hostile tug-of-war going on. Toy companies will demand certain things of the creative staff, and the staff will try to work with it or around it. The best directors will even try to subvert the toy company's ideas. The original Gundam wasn't supposed to have giant robots in it. Cowboy Bebop was commissioned specifically to sell model spacecraft. Bandai set the terms that G Gundam had to be a tournament story, and even supplied the designs that had to be used. And in all of these cases, the toy companies were very upset with the results until the shows became big hits.

The closest western parallel would probably be Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future.

 

Well except with the original Gundam. Which was planned to have giant robots, just of the classic "super robot" variety. The toys didn't sell well because it was bring in an older audience then the toys were being made for. It only got 43 of it's planned 52 episodes.

 

Not quite. The story was planned to feature small powered armor like in the novel Starship Troopers, but the sponsors wanted giant super robots. What we got was a compromise between the two.

Anyway, the point is that some of the best anime ever made has had direct input from toy companies, and not just had the toys made after the fact. Even when there's not such a specific request, they have to think about how well their show would translate into a marketable toy line and whether the basis for the hypothetical toys will be shown off adequately. That's a far cry from having complete creative freedom and letting the toy company sort out what to do with it afterward.

 

I get what you're saying about the overall production process shows go through, and I was probably too harsh saying that the overall handling is poor, but my general criticisms still stand.

You can compare things and cite that the way the whole show is put together is problematic, chaotic even, but I've been talking specifically about the writers. Their job is to write. THEY are the ones writing the episodes. And if there are writing problems then that buck stops with them, mostly.

Many other shows are subject to the same production processes that Prime is, but writing quality and cohesiveness varies wildly accross all. You can't foist the blame onto mandates, toy selling, censors, and all that. And honestly, on this board in particular I'm tired of people trying this argument.

If there's something wrong with the show, the primary party to look at is the creators themselves, because they do the actual work. If the creators are talented, then executive meddling alone (unless it's absolutely crippling) shouldn't effect the quality of writing content, direction, etc. Prime's problems don't come from being in a restrictive grip, they come with the creative content of the show itself, which is decided by producers, writers, editors etc. The fact that the team has introduced so many potentially controversial (or, in relation to the aligned continuity, downright contradictory) ideas hints that they have enough creative freedom, anyway.

And, to flamepanther, Beast Wars, though flawed, still handled certain things better, and did more for character development and exploration in its run than Prime has. That's why a fair amount of people still consider it better than Prime. It also probably had all of the mandate nonsense that Prime is under now, but STILL managed to do better, just because the creators had it together. Mostly...

 

I think he does show a retraint later on in the series.

I've wondered about that too. Wonder if it was intentional?

These I can agree on espcailly Airazor who could've been the first true developed heroic femme who isn't a bland sterotype. Sure we got Blackarachnia later on but still.

It may have been Hasbro making them do it at the time.

To be fair they weren't that badly handled.

To be fair Dinobot 2 wasn't really the original Dinobot until the last episode but in a way I can see what you're getting at.

I don't recall Tripredecus being hinted at all.

Again I agree with this.

I recall that the BW crew actually had a 4th season in mind so if it was made we could've seen it explored more.

 

Beast Wars did some things better, some things not as well, and many about the same. TF fans and fandom in general have been watching TV and cinema differently in the last couple of years, especially since TVTropes started gaining popularity. Fans are more critical. More analytical. Even if BW commits the same errors less frequently than Prime, some of the same people who now hold it up as a paragon would still tear the show apart because of them if it were new today. The same goes for Animated. Prime is indeed flawed, but its single biggest mistake is being born into the post-TVT era.

Got to disagree on the character development. If your name wasn't Dinobot or Rattrap, you were pretty much static. Cheetor especially suffered from the development amnesia people complain about in Prime. So did Bumblebee in TFA. And as those two shows had some characters that were static and some that grew, so does Prime. I don't know if people have noticed, but after learning (several times) not to do stupid things, Miko isn't causing the problems she used to. She handled hiding and radio silence better than Jack, the responsible kif. Jack, on the other hand, screwed that up because of feelings of guilt toward his mother, which was established way back at the beginning of season 2. Arcee has become more emotionally open (in ways other than freaking out). Smokescreen has become less focussed on daydreams of glory and destiny. It used to be all he could talk about. Now he's turned down the ultimate grand destiny when it was literally being handed to him. Even most of the characters that haven't changed much have at least been explored thoughtfully for at least one episode. For Transformers, Prime is actually doing really well in that area.

The biggest weakness is still the "where are we going" aspect of the series. In that area, we've gone back to G1 levels.

 

Remember the Predacon council of three, mostly shown in silhouette, that sent Ravage to Earth? Yeah, that was Tripredacus.

Could've. But without word from the creators we'd never have known that. We have no idea how many times the Prime staff have has to cut short or adjust their plans. Do we have any idea what might have been derailed in order for Beast Hunters to happen? Maybe nothing. Maybe lots of very big things. And since the show isn't finished and is likely to have a direct sequel, we also don't know what currently dangling threads might eventually be tied up.

I am not in any way trying to bash Beast Wars. I want that to be clear. But what I want equally clear is that Prime is being held to standards that other shows aren't being held to. It gets reamed for things that other shows get a pass for. I think there's a point at which critical analysis does more to ruin a show than the creators could ever do and we're there. At some point we've got to wake up and remember that there are more important things about the series than how strong an Insecticon is from episode to episode.

 

Waspinator was a threat for one episode. The Vehicons managed to remain at least small threats, half the time, in season one. And Starscream, remained a serious character. However both he and the Vehicons would become terrible in season 2 and 3.

At least Tigertron and Airazor proved the good guys weren't immortal gods of unparalleled might like they seem to be in Prime.

I admit, Dinobot II wasn't a good idea but at least he got some development, a major role and a decent death in the series finale. And since Prime fans always use exuses like this, I think it's also fair to point out this.Dark Glass - Transformers Wiki

Not every character needs to go down in an epic fight. Inferno and Quickstrike had comical deaths for comical characters. Though, I guess I'm the only person on these boards who wasn't pissed off by TFP Dreadwing's death.

 

I wasn't; Dreadwing had thrown off the gloves with the Cons, and decided to settle things his way. He died valuing his brother over his treacherous faction, and provided the best advantage the Autobots could have asked for in their hour of need  

 

Exactly. Sure he didn't change sides, but I didn't think he needed to. He realized the Decepticons were evil. He didn't go down in an epic fight but I think his death was good enough.

Oh, um, I mean GRRRRRR!!! Prime is terrible!

 

My only real disappointment with Dreadwing is that he never confronted Bumblebee. Sure, Optimus was the guy he talked to, but Bee was the one who tore out Skyquake's innards and led him to crash and burn. Would have been cool to see him confront the scout and force Bee to realise that even Decepticons have people they care for.

 

I know right? But just imagine a whole episode of poor little Bumblebee being chased by Dreadwing and lured into traps.