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Episode 37 "Flying Mind" Discussion

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Old 04-29-2012, 12:09 PM   #381
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1. They fought together because they're on the same side and they're both lower level grunts than the likes of SS and Soundwave, it's to be expected.

2. Knockout's only comment on their relationship was that Breakdown was his assistant. Not his partner, not his friend, his assistant. He clearly doesn't see him as equal.

3. I don't get why you say they didn't show him not caring about Breakdown. In all the times they interacted I never once got the impression they were equals. The example you cited of "Fight?" "Drive" shows that Breakdown took orders from him. Notice how in that episode, Speed Metal, and Out of His Head it was always Knockout issuing commands to Breakdown and letting him do the dirty work.

I will admit I originally thought they would develop them as friends. However after we got twenty episodes in and I learned more about Knockout I realized that he's not the type to care about Breakdown and we were never given any indication he did.

Also it wasn't an absence of characterization. He just didn't ever act like he gave a damn what happened to Breakdown and treated him more like a lackey and an "assistant" than a friend. His lack of a reaction is perfectly in character and fits with what we've seen over the last 30 episodes.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:10 PM   #382
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I quite like this new Knockout.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:11 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Kostya View Post
They fought together because they're on the same side and they're both lower level grunts than the likes of SS and Soundwave, it's to be expected. Knockout's only comment on their relationship was that Breakdown was his assistant. Not his partner, not his friend, his assistant. He clearly doesn't see him as equal.

I don't get why you say they didn't show him not caring. In all the times they interacted I never once got the impression they were equals. The example you sited of "Fight?" "Drive" shows that Breakdown took advice from him. Notice how in that episode, Speed Metal, and Out of His Head it was always Knockout issuing commands to Breakdown and letting him do the dirty work.

I will admit I originally thought they would develop them as friends. However after we got twenty episodes in and I learned more about Knockout I realized that he's not the type to care about Breakdown and we were never given any indication he didn't.

Also it wasn't an absence of characterization. He just didn't ever act like he gave a damn what happened to Breakdown and treated him more like a lackey and an "assistant" than a friend. His lack of a reaction is perfectly in character and fits with what we've seen over the last 30 episodes.
Perfectly stated. Knockout's predominant character trait, above all others, is that he is an irredeemable narcissist. Him not caring about losing his assistant is perfectly in character.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:17 PM   #384
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I'd really like a bit more clarity or clues on how the characters percieve each other.

For example; I'd like to know what Knock out feels about his team mates and vice versa. Also, I'd like to be updated on how the relationships and perceptions change over time.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:20 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Overlord Balder View Post
Bad Stuff:
- This show only strikes deeper how ridicuously POINTLESS Breakdown's death was, Knockout literally reacted as if nothing happened. These writers clearly have no idea what the flying Hell they're doing. I could write a better character arc blindfolded.
- Say Optimus, you had three powerful weapons: The Immobilizer, The Polary Gauntlet and the Spark Extractor. Then tell me, why on the eleventh level of Hell did you bring the least-effective weapon of all three? The Gauntlet could warp the Nemesis' steel around itself until it is nothing but a warped ball of metal, the Immobilizer could stop the Nemesis' engines with one hit and you bring the Spark Extractor? My God you're a freaking moron, someone take this man out of command before he kills us all.
- Also, why exaclty does everyone get off Stasis as soon as the Ship is defeated? It's a laser, not a magic spell.
So, things that didn't happen=missed opportunities=bad writers.

That's the general feeling I get from you.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Kostya View Post
1. They fought together because they're on the same side and they're both lower level grunts than the likes of SS and Soundwave, it's to be expected.
Yes, the two beign friendly to each it's the unexpected part.

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2. Knockout's only comment on their relationship was that Breakdown was his assistant. Not his partner, not his friend, his assistant. He clearly doesn't see him as equal.
You see, there's this thing called Bad writing...
And it was never shown he doesn't see him as an equal.

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3. I don't get why you say they didn't show him not caring about Breakdown. In all the times they interacted I never once got the impression they were equals.
They acted quite friendly to each other for non-equals, unlike Megatron and Starscream, who berate and scream at their thugs once every two seconds, Knockout and Breakdown not once sounded like that.

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The example you cited of "Fight?" "Drive" shows that Breakdown took orders from him.
Actually, no, it shows they're partners, he was asking for Knockout's opinion on the matter.

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Notice how in that episode, Speed Metal, and Out of His Head it was always Knockout issuing commands to Breakdown and letting him do the dirty work.
...And?

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Also it wasn't an absence of characterization. He just didn't ever act like he gave a damn what happened to Breakdown and treated him more like a lackey and an "assistant" than a friend. His lack of a reaction is perfectly in character and fits with what we've seen over the last 30 episodes.
No son, it is. Bad. writing.

Bad writing, as in, a writer being an utter moron, that's his show's achiles Heel.

Characterization is when you see a character reacing to things, Knockout never reacted to Breakdown's capture because the writers. are. fucking. INCOMPETENT.

You say he doesn't care about Breakdown, yet we never saw him "not caring" about Breakdown, granted we never saw him caring about Breakdown either [though their relationship does point towards that direction], I'm not asking for him to have a PSTD, I'm asking him to show some reaction, disdain, rage, sadness, mild amusement. SOMETHING, he didn't. Because of reasons I have mentioned a hundred times over.

It is not really that hard to understand that, people. It's lack of skill in the imbeciles who write this show, not Knockout's character.

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So, things that didn't happen=missed opportunities=bad writers.

That's the general feeling I get from you.
Not exactly. Say, you created a story. The main character has a brother. The main character dies. It is expected your brother will show some reaction to your demise. Him not showing is bad writing because that's what's supposed to happen, it's writing 101.

But wasted opportunities also count as bad writing.
Cybertronian Civil War - Decepticon Chronicles (fanfic).
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:30 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Overlord Balder View Post
- Say Optimus, you had three powerful weapons: The Immobilizer, The Polary Gauntlet and the Spark Extractor. Then tell me, why on the eleventh level of Hell did you bring the least-effective weapon of all three? The Gauntlet could warp the Nemesis' steel around itself until it is nothing but a warped ball of metal, the Immobilizer could stop the Nemesis' engines with one hit and you bring the Spark Extractor? My God you're a freaking moron, someone take this man out of command before he kills us all.
Balder, when has it ever been mentioned, or even implied, that the guantlet or the immobiliser had enough power to take on an entire warship? The Immobiliser is a prototype tool, not a goddamn ship sinker, and the guantlet manipulates metal on the whole, not twisting it as you suggest. They simply aren't enough to take on the Nemesis, which is a f*ckload bigger then their intended targets.

The Spark Extractor doesn't have to worry about the ship. All it needs to do is get close enough, and every last soul on the Nemesis would be toast; no amount of metal between them and the weapon would save them. Dump it on the ship's roof, bridge out, and come back later to find a ship full of dead people. Even the fact it was airborne and their intended victims were inside didn't seem to concern the Autobots, Optimus even telling Bumblebee that the only thing he had to worry about was getting out of the way when it went off. That's it. No "Oh crap, it's flying." or "They're all inside it.", just "Whatever, throw it at the thing."
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:31 PM   #388
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I'd really like a bit more clarity or clues on how the characters percieve each other.

For example; I'd like to know what Knock out feels about his team mates and vice versa. Also, I'd like to be updated on how the relationships and perceptions change over time.
this for me. I just want them to acknowledge each other what they are doing and what has happened. I don't care that KO doesn't care about BD's death but he should acknowledge it, like glad he is gone or, more shine for me or something. I hate when characters are kinda in a vacuum in relation to events in the world.

I personally think the writer's don't do the best job of connecting everybody in this regard.

that said, I love KO and his personality.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:34 PM   #389
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You say he doesn't care about Breakdown, yet we never saw him "not caring" about Breakdown, granted we never saw him caring about Breakdown either
Then stop acting like he does. You literally just admitted you have no evidence that he cares.

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It is not really that hard to understand that, people. It's lack of skill in the imbeciles who write this show, not Knockout's character.
You understand that Knockout is a character being written, yes? He's not a real person whose actions are being interpreted incorrectly by the writers; they decide how he is portrayed. If he isn't shown giving a fuck, it's because HE DOESN'T GIVE ONE.

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Not exactly. Say, you created a story. The main character has a brother. The main character dies. It is expected your brother will show some reaction to your demise. Him not showing is bad writing because that's what's supposed to happen, it's writing 101.
Why do you think a lack of a reaction is not characterization? Are you one of those guys that thinks Soundwave has no character because he doesn't talk?

Also, that entire example is a total strawman.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:37 PM   #390
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Why should Knockout care at all? Why should he even be shown caring?

He has been repeatedly shown as a narcissist and a sociopath. Him not caring about Breakdown is perfectly in character. It is not how I thought he would develop when I first saw him but regardless that is the way they developed him. You know why? Because Knockout does not care one bit about anyone but himself and will do anything to further his own goals including going against Megatron and siding with Starscream.
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