Bay formers 4= insult to a great name

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by rusty26, Nov 10, 2012.

  1. Snark

    Snark Well-Known Member

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    I (and I presume others) agree in theory. The problem is that the movies do nothing to show us a tired Optimus desperate for the war to end. In fact, he keeps giving noble speeches as if he's G1/Prime Optimus, whilst ripping peoples' faces off and sacrificing human cities to prove a point, which is where all the dissonance (and thus, Prime is crazy jokes) come from.
     
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Dr Pepper Fan

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    Sacrifice a city to prove a point?

    Someone missed Leadfoot's comment that they were busy getting out of the Atlantic Ocean first. They had no chance of getting there in time to stop the 'Cons assault.
     
  3. boxorak

    boxorak Lacking Shelf Space

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    I didn't really mind the Army stuff, mainly because I think that the military could use a little help in getting more people to recruit; after all, when you get past all of the cool toys and patriotism, army life sucks, and not as many people will enlist with that little tidbit in the back of their minds (And yes, I know that people still join the army regardless. That's why I said not as many people.).
     
  4. LordGigaIce

    LordGigaIce A Chair!

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    If giant alien robots invaded Earth I'd like to think the most technologically advanced military on the planet would be involved in the conflict.
     
  5. Soundpulse

    Soundpulse Well-Known Member

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    If giant alien robots invaded Earth, i'd try to join them.
     
  6. grindcore138

    grindcore138 TIME TO DELIVER A PIZZA BALL!

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    If you don't like the movies that's absolutely fine, but no one's actually making you watch them, therefore getting that worked up about them to the point that you think they're an "insult to a great name" and are "destroying the franchise" (despite, y'know, making it more popular than ever) is just dumb. Really, really dumb. If I don't like something, I pay no attention to it, not sit around whining because it exists, it is incredibly easy.
    I'd go into all the new fans they've brought in and blah blah blah, but it's already been said, not just in this thread, but a million others as well.
     
  7. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    It seems like we already have pro-military movies. For Paramount and Hasbro they have the GI Joe franchise if they can ever figure out how to get legs under the live action franchise. You have films like Battleship and Battle Los Angeles to get aliens vs military. You get serious Oscar contenders like Hurt Locker that you could argue as pro or con military. The trailers are going around for the SEAL Team Six movie. Just seems like we have plenty of military vs a variety of bad guys movies to pick from.

    But there aren't many movies out there with Autobots vs Decepticons. When we get the rare film featuring the Autobots then I'd just like the focus on the Autobots being the heroes even if it meant we didn't get as much military gear in each film.
     
  8. decepticreep312

    decepticreep312 Well-Known Member

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    It's like 2007 all over again.
     
  9. Soundpulse

    Soundpulse Well-Known Member

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    No... it's more likely like this every year.
     
  10. LordGigaIce

    LordGigaIce A Chair!

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    Again though, it's kind of weird not to expect the US military to be involved in a movie about alien robots fighting it out on Earth.
    Having the US Military be involved makes sense from a storytelling perspective.
     
  11. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Only if the film is set in the US or a location where the US military is stationed, and even then, it leads to completely different reactions in someone who's american compared to someone who's not. The cultural context you see it in changed dramatically depending on where the audience is from.
     
  12. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    Except those we're happier times before the recession, the cutbacks on the size, increase of prices and the fact every was into Transformers again.

    *sigh*

    The Summer of 2007 was one of the best summers ever.
     
  13. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    A difference though between the military being involved and it feeling like the military is taking over the movie. For example we had cops in Spiderman 2 but it never felt like a cop movie since Spiderman would have to show up and take care of Doc Ock.

    Sometimes it just feels like the only Autobot that is needed is Prime to take on characters like Megatron or the Fallen but the humans could take care of the rest of the Decepticons.
     
  14. LordGigaIce

    LordGigaIce A Chair!

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    The United States Military is the most advanced military in the world, and it has bases all over the world.
    So not only would an alien robot invasion most likely involve the US Military wherever it was happening, but in all likelihood if it happened in a nation other then the US the national government would probably request the US Military's help. Heck, the US is bound by treaty to aid any NATO nation that's under attack. Not to mention the fact that the US has similar treaties with other countries outside of the NATO sphere (Australia, New Zealand).
    Regardless of where the action's taking place, the US Military would likely be involved.

    As for cultural context, well I don't know what to tell you. EVERYTHING depends on cultural context to one degree or another. You can't make a movie that doesn't alienate someone. I'm not an American, and I didn't mind the US Military presence in the movie. At the end of the day it's a movie primarily being made by Americans for an American audience. You can't go in expecting a movie to go out of its way to appeal to everyone.
     
  15. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    I didn't mind the fact that they were American, but I can definitely see why others would say that the Transformers films are a love letter to the american military. It makes sense within the context of the film for them to be there, but how they're portrayed in terms of direction, characterization, etc. hits a lot of cliched, jingoistic notes.

    In regards to them participating in global action against an alien menace, I agree that they'd almost certainly be brought in to help, but the fact that, even within NEST, a supposedly multinational organization, we see only one character of non-american origin, is somewhat striking. I mean shit, what kind of crazy mixed up world are we living in where GI Joe is more nationally diverse than they are? It's not that the US military shouldn't be participating in these operations, but they shouldn't be the only ones, especially in locations outside of their sovereignty and in a film series where pretty much every other national armed force beyond that one SAS guy (Graham) is portrayed somewhat antagonistically, when at all.
     
  16. Grandum

    Grandum Well-Known Member

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    Nato only includes 28 coutries, and quite a small amount of landmass geographically speaking. Would former USSR states welcome The US army? China? The arab countries? Not talking real life here, but I don't think that would make sense to a movie audience that has seen these countries portrayed as anti-america for ages and ages.

    I digress ofc - I think that there is a distinct difference between being involved and having it look like an army recruiting video. If MB was able to get over his faux patriotism then he could use the army as a story telling tool instead:

    Picture this: army goes in, guns blazing, lots of baysplosions and all that - but the decepticons aren't damaged at all, instead they start ripping tanks and whatnot to shreds and just as everything seems hopeless - tadaaa autobots to save the day.

    It'd make the decepticons look badass, and the autobots even more badass for taking on the decepticons and winning.

    I dunno...just makes sense to me I guess (sorry about the spelling, using my iphone)
     
  17. LordGigaIce

    LordGigaIce A Chair!

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    What's the alternative? Cliched "people in the military are idiots with guns" notes? I've got family in the military. Not the American military, but the military none the less. A lot of films and television shows tend to run with the idea that the military's full of idiots who'd have killed everything on the planet by now if they had their way.
    While Bay's movies do have the tendency to glamorize the military I appreciate that there are films out there that celebrate the dedication and and complexities behind military life. A bit extreme, but I appreciate the sentiment, because it's one that can be lacking from time to time.

    I do believe that the most prominent non-American in NEST was the British officer, correct? Or are we thinking of different guys? Again I think you have take perception into account. Who's the United States' biggest military ally? The United Kingdom. Showing a team that includes a British solider is a shorthand way to convey "this is an international team" to American audiences.

    I think it goes back to the idea in science fiction that we as humans will onlyreally learn to cooperate with each other if we face an alien threat. I'll expand more on this below.

    Actually quite a few former USSR and Eastern Bloc states have welcomed an American military presence in the years following the downfall of Communism. They see the US as a potential safeguard against renewed Russian expansion. The Ukraine was arguably the second most important republic in the USSR, and today it would rather pal up with the US then Russia. Same for Georgia and the Baltic states. Poland, a former Warsaw Pact nation, is now firmly in the US camp. The only former Soviet states that still view the US as potential enemy are Russia and Belarus.

    This goes back to what I was saying, about that idea in science fiction that we'll only come together in the face of an external (ie alien) threat. Say the Decepticons start invading. It's not a matter of one country's national security now. It's now a war between humanity and hostile alien invaders. If that happens I think a lot of states that are currently not on the best of terms with the US would ask for US military aid. Not only because it's now "us against them" but because the US has the most advanced military on the planet. If any human military has a chance at defeating technologically advanced alien lifeforms it's the US military. I think China or Iran would quickly forgive any misgivings they might have about the US to get US military aid in such a situation. The only nation that I can see not doing so is North Korea, but then again North Korea is insane.

    Save for the Autobots saving the day you just described the opening "attack on the base" scene from the first Transformers movie. The problem is that it's not realistic to expect the military to be impotent against the Decepticons forever. Eventually they'd figure something out, or they'd get the tech needed from the Autobots. We're now three movies in too. There's no sense in going back to the "military gets ROFLstomped" plot thread at this point.
     
  18. roccondil5

    roccondil5 sculptor

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    I think you're missing the point somewhat. The movie is called transformers, not the army vs evil alien robots. Even the tag line is "our world, their war". THEIR war. It's a conflict between autobots and decepticons, not the army vs decepticons(with some bots in the background for good measure). I take what ash said and also give you the example of the avengers. It's an invasion movie, and yet, everything takes a back seat to the avengers, bc that's what we want to see. They still make the police, in this case, look good, they acknowledge their presence, but that's it. We know they are there, we know they have their role, but that's not what we want to see. For that, we have movies like Battle LA, where the army looking good is the whole point, like others have said before.
     
  19. LordGigaIce

    LordGigaIce A Chair!

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    That's fair enough, but I think it should be noted that it's probably easier to focus on a group like the Avengers then the Autobots/Decepticons. The Avengers is, at the end of the day, six people. Sure, there's CGI involved but you're basically talking about focusing on six actual human beings (well five, Hulk's entirely CGI I believe).
    With Transformers you've got Autobots and Decepticons represented entirely by massively complex CGI models. It can't be cheap or easy render them as it. IIRC Shockwave's worm thing almost melted ILM's computer bank.
    So focusing on them more then they're already focused on may not be all that attractive from a film making perspective. Given the massive amounts of money DotM made they may feel the freedom to focus on the 'Bots and 'Cons more prominently for TF4.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more of a focus on the 'Bots and 'Cons. Some of my favourite scenes from the first three films consisted entirely or mostly of the Transformers (the Autobots discussing their plan in the desert, Starscream and Megs aboard the Nemesis, Optimus, Starscream, Megs, and Grindor in the forest, Starscream, Megs, Soundwave, and Laserbeak in Africa, Megs, Starscream, Optimus, and Sentinel in Washington, Optimus, Sentinel, and Megs in Chicago).
    I just don't oppose the military presence in these films either, or the overall positive portrayal that they get.
     
  20. Noideaforaname

    Noideaforaname Pico, let's go up to Zuma

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    I must've said this a million times, but: MILITARY AUTOBOTS. You get the military doing what they do best without leaving the Autobots out. It feel a lot more "Transformers"-y if it was, say, Broadside that knocked Devastator off the Pyramid, or Springer or Powerglide "brought the rain" or whatever.

    I mean, these bots have alternate modes. Let's actually use them for something besides driving. (or advertising GM's latest automobiles....)