I just had a revalation today.
Michael Bay's version of Transformers is modern day G1. Not the designs, but the story and the way it is told. Hear me out on this.
the first piece of this idea came from the thread about devastator's balls. Someone commented that, "devastators balls = nipples on the batsuit".
the commenter was refering to "batman and robin" and "batman forever". These movies got bashed when they came out, but I believe they are brilliant interpretations/homages to the 1960's tv show as opposed to the comic book. Until someone responded to some comment of mine by saying something like, "the plot of lord of the rings is good. The plot of transformers is not."
Ironically, this person was an avid and rabid supporter of the movie, so it struck me as very odd that he would say that.
What made me put these two ideas together was reading the reviews in the "one and only" review thread.
here are some things that started going through my head:
1-the plot of most g1 episodes stunk. the plot in general of ROTF apparently also stinks.
2-goofy humor:check
3-annoying humans are in both
4-incompetent enemies: somehow, the decepticons can't bring themselves to step on the humans.

I am sure there is plenty I am missing, but my point is made. I feel like I have been looking at this movie with the wrong eye. I also think that this is something that could help some people get along better here. geewunners and fanbays have much more in common than they realize. What fanbays need to realize is that geewunners got massively spoiled by the 1986 movie. In every aspect, that movie was better than the cartoon is was based on. this is what makes geewunners' expectations so high.
I think it would be really cool if we could come together on this thread and talk about how similarly lame or goofily funny G1 and the new movies are.
I am sure there has to be a balls joke somewhere in g1.

 

season 2 episode childs play. starscream is crushed by a giant ball.

 

Optimus Prime taking it to the basket for two in the G1 cartoon.

 

Well, I too find the original series a little dumb, but the characters (the robots) are way more enjoyable and relatable.
Don't forget there are plenty of recent comics based on G1. DreamWave made the best, but IDW has also published some interesting ones.

 

LOFL!

 

Because I am not a rabid Supporter of the movie... don't just claim anyone who disagrees with you a rabid supporter of the movie.

Most of the discussions from people who have seen the movie are bringing very real and very discussable criticisms to the boards here, And until all of us see it, there is really no discussing many aspects of it.

Personally I have a real problem with the lethal force from TF1 being stepped up in this movie. The sideswipe clip has actually really bothered me when I saw it as It seemed vicious and cruel for an autobot. I honestly would rather have the TFs lying battered and bruised like Barricade in TF1 after fighting with Bumblebee. Why Bumblebee didn't put a bullet in barricades head is beyond me because that is what it sounds like the rest of the autobots do. I want to see the whole scene to see if all these 'lethal force' moments were needed and if these guys really are dead or just 'wrecked for now'.

People say "want "this", "this" and "this" to be like G1 and BW, but I don't want the humor or poor plotlines or humans..." Those things have been part of the core transformers franchise from day one but they think it wouldn't be in a movie? I think TF1 felt very much like a long 3-part episode intro to a season 1 of a live action TF show with summer blockbuster effects. I am not sure we can get a season 3 plotline without the foundation of a season 1 intro story. I can't think of a single TV or comic movie recently that has had what I would consider a quality plot line.

We get issue 1# or issue 3# when we are craving Issue 38# where the character is already developed and facing some deeper challenges and stories based upon the foundation of the previous stories.

 

So basically, I think we agree.
Bayformers is G1.
those who want more g1 can't see that this is already very much like g1.
apart from the designs of course

See, it's because of people like you that we don't get quality films like "Commando" and "death wish 3" anymore. Whats wrong with some good ol' fashion american street violence?

what do you mean by recent? in the past ten to 15 years, we have been in the midst of a rennaisance of comic book film making compared to the crap being put out in the 70's and 80's. Its painful just to think about it.

If I get you correctly, yes, I think many people here want "deeper challenges and stories", and it seems like that is not a factor in the minds of the people producing this film franchise. They simply want a cash cow that they can use to market cars and toys, IMHO.

 

If wht you say is true, then:

RID is Bayformers is G1.
Armada is G1 is RID is Bayformers.
Energon is Bayformers is RID is G1.
Bayformers is RID is Cybertron is G1 is Armada is Energon.
Energon is Bayformers is G1 is RID is Energon is Armada.

Damn! I left of Animated...

I really, REALLY like what you are saying here, and I agree completely.
It sure would be nice for a lot of the anger and hatred to dissipate and compare likes and dislikes in a less offended manner.

 

That's kinda what I'm getting out of it. I think people latch on to one incarnation moreso than others, and then view it as being on a higher plane or something. Really, they all have cop outs and silly story devices, and the formula for selling the robots hasn't changed that much. Furthest I've seen them go from it is Beast Machines (even that used a little low-brow humor) and we all know how well that was received.

 

Why the problem with lethal force? It´s a war, you kill your enemies in a war. People should stop whining about that.

 

Transformers have never been true war. They have always been a stagnant dead race trying to stay alive *AFTER* a great war. The great war is over...

Also, Even if it is war and battles.... TFs are robots that live millions of years. They are either built to last or easily repairable. If they were as fragile as the movie makes them appear to be, none of the TFs would have survived long enough for these movies to happen. I mean they can crash down from space without a scratch but they flat out die in many of these scenes?

Besides, we already have a sanitized way of having death in TFs, stasis lock. Would TF1 really have been so bad if all the other decepticons *BUT* megatron simply went into stasis lock? And the scene of them disposing of the bodies could have a cut away of them removing and storing away sparks (as they clearly talked about sparks and spark chambers). Same result, but then blackout, Brawl, Frenzy and such are just in spark prison...

If slicing a TF in half or stabbing him through the head with a sword simply puts them into stasis lock then it is much more 'acceptable' as we all love our characters and like to see them live on outside of the media. Pointless killing of transformers has never worked in any of the series.

Oh, and there is a time for lethal force in great movies... TFs simply isn't one of them.

 

Wow..what an ironically sarcastic thread.. 

But I don't give a shit, because in the end though, I sort of agree.

Neither of them are very good, but on the same time AWESOME. I'm having fun watching Bayformers just as much as I'm having fun watching G1..TF is terribly flawed to me, but oh so fun.

Anno 2009, should we expect more quality than what Bayformers is giving us? Certainly. But on the other hand, if it has many of the flaws that the older TF stuff, it does nothing to change the status quo, which I happen to love.

So until a real TF masterpiece comes around, I'll just continue having fun with what I am being offered, and I wish people could do the same instead of the constant bitching of all sides.

PEACE OUT YO

ps: I don't think the 86 movie was better than the series, though. It's still just as odd, just with higher production values. But that's cool.

 

Why do you say that TFs has not got a place for lethal force?

 

As much as I would love to see a real Transformers masterpiece, it would not be a marketable film.
The G1 film was a cut above the series but that was'nt hard to achieve.

What we need is a fan funded film which isn't limited by some production house budget. Even if it was animated or cgi it could work. In fact an animated version would be the best way to have the flexibility to achieve this. However what script would make the full spectrum of fans happy?

Whilst there boards probably have one of the best cross representations of Transformers fans, could we script a blinding film.

 

The only reason there wasn't any deaths in the old cartoons was because it was a big no-no back in the day. Just like guns shooting bullets, they all got replaced by lasers. Oh, and of course maybe because Hasbro wanted to sell toys and dead characters don't really sell that well.

Nowadays rules have become much looser when it coms to children's television, and some series actually use the theme of a character dying in a sincere/mature way. Kids CAN handle the stuff, if it is treated right.

Killing off all the old characters in the 86 movie, Prime especially, after having come through 2 seasons with no bot dying, is very surprising, shocking and scary to practically any fan, especially kids..so that wasn't very smart.

But like I said, it's all more loose now, so they can do it. The big robots are at war, it only makes sense they try to kill their enemies when they have the chance. And since it's just one movie (or 2, or 3), nobody needs to be afraid of killing off characters, since they won't be needed for next week's episode.

Seeing certain characters die in the movieverse, like Jazz (and whoever will die in the next one..NO SPOILERS PLEASE  ), is only weird because, thanks to 80s cartoons, we have all been brainwashed into believing our beloved characters should all live to fight another day..which isn't very realistic.

I have no problem with characters being killed off, even if this means some of my favorites will kick the bucket.

On the other hand, though, if they will make a Bayformers inspired cartoon, I think they'd do best to not let characters die so much. Even bring back some characters that, according to the accompanying movie comics, are dead (like Cliffjumper!)..you know, just have the series be inspried by the movies, but interpret them loosely.

I have to disagree..just because we are 'the fans' does not mean we would do a better job. First of all, everybody has a different opinion on what works and what doesn't, so that's already a big gap in pleasing everybody. And most of us aren't the level of professional when it comes to writing a good plot, or coming up with designs, or animating. etc. For the sake of this being a fan movie, those factors might weigh less heavy than a Hollywood production, but I can guarantee you, people will still bitch about it.

To be honest, I've seen some fan-movies and I have yet to encounter one that can be callled quality. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the passion is there for practically every person or group that has made a fan movie..but they're just too bad. I think the only ones that are somewhat decent are the funny ones by DR SMOOV and whoever he is working with..but I saw a more serious toned one a couple weeks ago and I was terribly unimpressed.
I think that's where most fan-projects go wrong..in some twisted logic of wanting to bring the hardcore fans something they would like to see (or just the hardcore creator wanting to make something he would love), they somehow resolve to ultra-serious/(im)mature plots that miss any of the TF charm.

I would like to be proven wrong, though! Someone, make a quality fanmovie!

Anyway, in the end..I think trying to collectively make a fan movie would end up very, very bad. People fighting each other over practically every- and anything that should be in the movie, so it will never get made. Or if DOES get finished, turn out to be some incoherent pile of junk that will not please anybody (as opposed to the incoherent Hollywood pile of junk, which pleases at least 38% of the human population!).  

 

I see your point, but I think that a lot of the sanitization of death in those cases has to do with the fact that the cartoons were made primarily for younger audiences than the new films are. The film is PG-13 so it's targeted at an audience that is more likely able to handle the step up in violence. At the same time the finality of death and the impact of violence adds a greater degree of realism to the films, which fits in line with the new look of the films as opposed to the more cartoony look of the animated shows. I believe that even in the G1 comics there was an elevated level of violence by comparison to the show.

Even since G1 the theme song states 'autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the decepticons'. They're not defending themselves, attempting to capture decepticons, or make peace treaties. They're trying to destroy the decepticons.

Personally I can see the fact that they are on earth being a reason for autobots to significantly increase their response to the decepticons. If the autobots are interested in protecting all sentient life, then having decepticons running around earth, ready to vaporize humans left and right, would be a very good reason to take every encounter with a decepticon seriously and to make sure any battles are won quickly and decisively before the battle puts any humans at further risk.

Regarding your point about them being able to slam into the earth from space but not take any damage in battle, I think the reasons for that come from the modes that they are in at those points. The earth entry modes from the first film show that basically they just turn into a giant rock, with all of their armoring on the outside of their body. That way they can impact the ground but have their outer shell take most of the force before they transform back into robot mode. It's a heavily armored alt mode but is otherwise useless and so to blend in they take on the earth alt modes. This is also part of why they are seemingly weaker i the films I think. Having to encorporate an earth alt mode likely left lots of weaknesses all over their armor, and so it became a lot easier to damage them

 

I dunno where you get that idea.

 

Why does everything constantly have to be compared to G1? People need to let go and take the movie for what it is.

 

Yes..but of course, since it was the first live action TF movie, and called 'Transformers', people were obviously going to assume it was a rendition of G1, while in reality it's pretty much a seperate entry that aches back to G1 just as much as Armada, RID, Animated, etc..in some ways more than the other series, and in some ways less.

I'm afraid people will never let it go.   If they had clearly stated this movie would be a reimagining, rather than a slavish G1-copy, some people might have gone into it with more clear minds..but one has to wonder though..what WERE they expecting from a live action movie based on a 25 year old franchise that, because of the live action nature, relies heavily on expensive cgi? Oh, and being a Hollywood movie, it has to appeal to the mass market too, rather than just the already existing fans..ah well.  

Let's just say the anger towards it not being a copy of our old beloved series was expected.

 

So, you are arguing that the movie is not enough like g1 in respect to the violence, correct?
I knew this thread was going to mess up people's logic.

I don't see anything wrong with comparing the movie to G1. G1 was the original idea, so it is fitting that the most recent interpretation of the idea is compared to the original interpretation. It is true, however, that there seems to be no comparison to other transformers series. Beastwars is the high water mark of transformers, IMHO.