Talking to Bay defenders is like shouting into void space.
And suggestions for improvements are too little too late.







Yet, here I go ;

- Make Transformers IMMUNE to those damn human sabot rounds. That was major movie mistake #1. It should be an immunity development process to which Optimus Prime agreed upon, after his Autobots were being hunted down by humans in AOE, that would be believable for him to do.

- Instiead of sabot rounds or Transformium Human-made artificial intelligence TF's, equip the humans who DO side with the Autobots, with human made Mecha.... kind of like Skywatch has them. This solves two or three other major problems the previous movies suffered from :
1. It enables the human character to physically participate and follow the pace and scale of Transformers action ; in previous movies, the action was way too often constrained to the viewpoint of the human characters who were often in static stationary position ( relative to the spatiality of Transformers scale and ability ) and thus the action was always very intense but relatively static ( because Bay = focus on human faces and their viewpoint ). And NO, riding a Transformer like Bumblebee or Strafe does not count because at such moments the human characters get ultimate plot armor.
2. If human characters like Lennox would pilot these mechs, you would see their contribution to the fight and you would really root for them like you do for the humans in Pacific Rim and Macross ; you feel the human pain if a human dies in their Mecha. I mean... imagine if the movies had this and more focus on Lennox and his family, you would care even more for him and his family....and let's say.... if he would go down in his Mech during a crucial action scene and he dies, like a Roy Fokker..... That is an example of how you could make an audience care more for human characters in a Transfomers movie.
3. It keeps Transformers action, Transformer-ish, whereas previous movies was too much Transformers in the background with camera view point from human-group/footsoldiers.


Personally, I really think the franchise should reboot. But if they would incorporate above suggested changes, I might give TF5 a chance.


Probably won't happen but oh well.

 

I don't know, but if some little yellow fuckers in blue overalls can gross higher than any of the 4 films. They need to do something!!

 

Ah crud. Hopefully Michael Bay will improve on multiple story lines by the time this starts filming.

We all know he won't though  

 

Here's the thing. It doesn't matter HOW it can learn from the past. Because the fact is that it won't. Bay is just going to keep doing things the way he wants, regardless that most Transformers fans hate his movies, and critically speaking, they usually get the worst reviews. Doesn't matter. he still sells tickets, AND he gets an ASSLOAD of sponsors to back his terrible movies.

So really, we only have ourselves to blame (I mean not me, because I didn't bother to see Tf3 or 4, but those of you who did). He makes garbage, but people still go out to see his movies in droves. So honestly, I can't blame him. Why should he make an effort when his formula is working? He doesn't care what critics say. He doesn't care what I have to say. Nor should he. His job is to make a profitable movie, which he does.

 

Why should anyone listen to critics? If that was the case, movies like Fear and Loathing, Fight Club, and The Shining wouldn't be considered classic films.

A lot of what I hear is "Bay sucks because critics say he sucks so therefore, I think he sucks too!"

I love the Bay films. But I recognize they have their issues. Knoted had some good points, but honestly I stopped caring with his thinly veiled insult at the beginning of his post. We can't just talk without people laying down blanket statements?

Maybe instead of trying to work on Bay, we should all work on ourselves first. Myself included.

 

. Bay doesn't care about critics. He cares about making money. And that's fine if that's what you want. He's not making Shakespeare here, he's making movies about explosions and computer generated things doing computer generated stuff.

Some directors however, do want to know what critics think, and what their viewers think. They want their movies to be timeless. Just think about this. In 20 years, Michael Bay's TF movies will be considered obsolete and will probably be considered movies that "didn't age well" because of all the jokes that really only apply to the time that the movies were released. But guess what? he doesn't care. He made money, Hasbro made money, tickets sold, toys sold, and that's all that matters to them.

To Bayaformers Fans: If you like the movies, good, go see them, enjoy them, but don't hope for them to improve or even begin to aspire to be as good as some of the cartoon series. Not gonna happen.

to people that hate Bayformers: The movies will NOT improve ever. If the movies only piss you off, stop going to see them. You've been tricked FOUR TIMES now. Don't be tricked a 5th

 

How can TF5 learn from the past?

It cannot, and will not, so long as we pay to watch these movies. The stories have been mediocre to terrible, yet audiences continue to flock to each release and make the studios a lot of money. Mainstream movies are all about bums in seats, so from Paramount's perspective, they have had huge success with these movies and therefore have no motivation to improve the story or direction.

Ultimately, it is the fandom that is responsible for the fact these movies typically are bad: we typically continue to pay to see them. You want the franchise to improve? Don't go see the next film. I didn't see part 4, and will not go to see part 5.

 

I still don't know how anything I said doesn't correlate, except the movies being considered "Classics" which, I don't think anyone expected them to be.

As for being tricked, people who are fairly adamant against the films have found AoE to be an improvement. So telling someone to not be open minded and just avoid the film outright doesn't really promote any sort of discussion. And I'm not even talking about paying for tickets. See it when it's on the TV, or available for free.

Point is, see it and then form an opinion. Even if it's number 5, as I stated before 4 has actually surprised some people.

 

As have the cartoons. As have the comics.

Your point?

 

/\ Your points about the franchise as a whole suffering from weak story telling are entirely valid. My point is made in my original post: please re-read it in its entirety if you are unclear about it.

 

The fact I post the points means I am still willing to talk. Yes, not all Bay critics are brainless bashers.

We could still have a somewhat constructive conversation as a fandom amongst ourselves.


Still, that does not guarantee movie improvement[/QUOTE]

 

Some people will always take criticisms of the movies as personal attacks on their character. Its something I've vowed to try and ignore!  

Movie critics don't need to be catered for, but you can't make movies in a Vacuum. Transformers must pay attention to what people say, if it wants to better itself. They do make some improvements each time, but the same problems do keep turning up with each installment, and the worst (of many) offenders are convoluted plot, the tone of the humour and the unlikeable characters. But I stand by AOE when it comes to the latter. Dropping the entire trilogy cast was inspired, and shows they were listening to what some people were saying. Lucky Charms was the only character I generally disliked, but even that was probably just because he was dissing Marky Mark the whole time. If he'd have been f**king Simmonds' daughter I would have cheered for him!  

I like your idea about the mechs, I really thought that was where they were going with the KSi bots in AOE.  

 

I feel like improvements have to come at the studio level and not just individual films. It just feels like Paramount has given up on the domestic market and gone to maybe we can just ride expanding markets in other nations for the foreseeable future. If as a domestic ticket buyer you aren't happy or you don't go to see their movies they just don't seem to care anymore.

Until Paramount gets that feeling that they need to climb back to the top of the domestic box office charts then I don't see the studio really pushing hey we need to make our domestic customers happy.

 

If TF5 follows established canon, it'll be beyond help. The TF personalities are dire to non-existent, Prime is an axe-happy killer and the designs look like crap.

I mean, where do you go with the non-story? Prime is in space, some uninteresting stereotype characters are left on Earth and does anyone really care at this point who created the movie-verse TF's?

I liked the first film for all its faults, it was a decent intro with some excellent scenes, but subsequently it's just nonsensical rubbish. Without a total reboot, forget it.

 

TF5 isn't going to deviate from its previous formula: Tons of action with little substance, very little character development, misplaced toilet humor and gratuitous explosions. Why would they change anything when they've already made hundreds of millions of dollars? They're catering to the casual fans, not the Transformers fans.

 

Wow and you people say movie fans are thick headed everything you have complained about i have already explained repeatedly only for all of you to once again ignore it. Everytime I or someone like me presents a defense that more often than not disproves a lot of what you say you people just ignore it and continue acting like nothing has changed well newsflash, EVERYTHING HAS CHANGED! TF 4 is not TF 2, it has very few of the things people complained about in that movie, yet it is stated again and again that each movie is the same.

Right, a conspiracy on Earth, some ancient Cybertronian artifact and a big battle in the ending. If that's the same movie than nearly every sequel is the same, going by that logic, A New Hope and Return of the Jedi are the same movie. Going by that logic Spiderman and Spiderman 2 are the same movie, yet no one says this so why does this only apply to transformers?

All of these complaints, mooks aren't threatening, henchmen aren't developed, bad humor, certain characters are underdeveloped, apparently only apply to transformers despite the fact that they exist in nearly everything else. You talk about the writing being awful and point out all these flaws and plot holes yet this could easily be done to any movie.

For example ANH a classic. Why can't the stormtroopers aim after the opening, Why doesn't Luke react to his family being slaughtered, Why doesn't Leia react to her planet being destroyed? Leia knows the Empire is likely tracking her yet she decides to go back to rebel base anyway, why? This is beyond stupid and threatens the entire rebellion. The rebels know the Deathstar is coming why not abandon the planet, you can still do your attack but you don't have to be on the planet. You don't have to risk literally everything on this battle. It's stupid, it's not believable and it's boardline suicidal! Another example the Death Star blowing up should by all logic eradicate Yavin completely,heck the sheer gravitational pull of something that massive would tear the planet apart.

See easy, you pick apart the movies with ease accuse them of having all these plot holes but in truth it's no worse than most other franchises, the only reason you noticed half of them is because you try to, because you are looking for them, and well if you're looking for them of course you're going to find them.

 

Lol, Lord Tron, I think it's clear that you just don't understand what people dislike about these movies, and why they love others. And that's fine, everyone has there own opinions. But this thread was just a chance for people to suggest improvements as they see fit, whether you think improvements are necessary or not is moot. Just relax! We're all Transformers fans, we just have different expectations.

I feel like a lot of people who are on the fence about the movies get straw manned into arguing against them because of the barrage of claims and excuses people make in the movies defence, which don't change the reality of what they experienced watching it. And yeah I'm sure the door swings both ways there!

 

That's not my point, my point is expecting more of these than others, people complain about Optimus and Bumblebee getting all the focus but they're the main characters this makes sense. While the films have plot holes these are the only ones not excused, Leia going back to the rebel base anyway and the rebellion not evacuating despite the fact that they know the empire is coming is way more stupid than anything people accuse Optimus of. The Death Star not destroying Yavin is the same situation as Cybertron not destroying Earth, why is only transformers called out for it?

The Storm troopers are just mooks cannon fodder for the heroes just like the protoform are in the movies, why are the Storm troopers accepted as mooks but the protoforms aren't. Vader is the only villain who consistently poses a threat but up until Return receives very little character development, a bit in empire but not much. Each movie has one villain they focus on and unlike the Empire, the decepticons consistently have the edge and do no worse in their battles than the empire does.

So tell me what separates all these examples why does one possible stupid choice take you out of the movie when another board line suicidal one doesn't? Why is Cybertron not ripping apart the Earth a plot hole but the Death Star not annihilating Yavin is fine? Why is the Storm troopers being ineffective fine but the decepticon army being easily killed is not? Why is the empire considered a threatening villain when they don't really accomplish anything yet the decepticons who do are not? Tell me what separates these examples?

 

I dunno, is it because an audience will suspend their disbelief for longer (like 40 years in this case) if they're given charactes and scenarios they feel invested in, encased in a product that doesn't insult their intelligence or resort to toilet humour to get a laugh from the teen audience?

 

I think you are overlooking the power of public perception.

If the general consensus tips over into a film production really got a superhero then there is no stack of back issues that will change the public perception to the film makers didn't get it. You can point to issue 47 page 6 until your finger falls off but the idea they got it will not change once enough people feel like they got it.

On the flip side if enough people start feeling like they didn't get it then there really isn't anything fans or people working on the film can say to change people over to hey they actually got to the core of the character.

So it might not be fair but the perception of the Transformers films seems to be a lot of nonsense filling out time until the robots beat the crap out of each other again. Even with some of the people that enjoy movies it hasn't been story but love all that crazy CGI action.

If people feel like it's the same thing every time because McGuffin, Prime kills someone, screaming human, a dead Autobot, a pile of dead Decepticons, a robot that's hardly in the film, then as a fan you can't change that feeling that other people have. Only the studio can do something about it by coming up with a movie that somehow feels different to people.

Will Paramount go for something that makes people feel different at some point? I just don't know because I don't work for Paramount.