Yes you have. Unless you've not seen... most of Marvel or Dc's movies.

Winter Soldier comes to mind as a movie with far better action. And as said, action is better when you give a shit about what's going on.

 

Enjoyment of action of different kinds is subjective. I completely understand if someone likes different approaches to action compared to another.

But that doesn't change poor choreography. Even if you can ignore it and just enjoy the insanity of the situations, that doesn't mean the action isn't poorly choreographed and sloppy. As I said, enjoying one more than the other comes down to opinion. Marvel movies do have better choreography, far less sloppy camera work, and just generally more well thought out actions scenes. If you think it's boring and you prefer the over the top insanity, fine, whatever, but that doesn't mean the insanity is necessarily better. It just means you prefer it.

 

Pretty sure it was to bring balance to the force not destroy the Sith.

 

It's my opinion that Bay's action scenes are crap too. The designs are a complete mess in movement, which the shakey cam didn't help, and several of the explosions are blatantly fireworks being set off for no apparent reason.

 

The problem is someone will say the choreography standards are just you're own opinion, and then 5 other people will wade in to defend them, and you'll look like the bastard for trying to "impose" you're view of what's good and bad, and told you're pretenscious for thinking you're better than anyone else that disagrees.

The place is a microcosm of the wider western world, where we're taught to value personal opinion over technical fact, and then given the right and means to be publicly offended by it.

Eventually the thing we're arguing about fades to the side, and we're just arguing about who has the most right to hold an opinion.

Common sense will never prevail. Well, my opinion of what common sense is won't!

 

Please, tell me where I said the action in the TF films was something I hated, because I'm kind of getting annoyed by having words I never said shoved in my mouth.

Just saying that the Transformers films aren't as good in the action department as the Marvel films is not me saying that I hate the action in transformers films. If I said two was less than three, that's not me saying anything below the value of three is zero, which is the kind of logic you're projecting onto me.

 

The forest fight from ROTF and the Dread chase scene from DOTM are good. Every other fight in Bay's Transformers movies suffers from blurriness, shaky camera work, constant scene jumping, and often take place only in the background while the camera focuses on something else.

 

It's been a long time since I was here topics like this one mainly being the reason however the user who posted this actually makes a point. The MCU movies are no where near the quality people claim stating the x men and Spiderman movies are just action and Marvel studios is not is biased to an absurd degree. Character and story wise the Marvel movies aren't fit to lick X men's boots. Even the worst of the X men movies have more character than the most of the marvel movies.

The truth is the marvel movies are guilty of every single sin Transformers is only in some cases worse.

Yes the Transformers movies have immature humor I regrettably admit this but they know when to stop well at least the last two movies do.

Marvel does not know when to stop a humorous quip could come out at any moment you could have an emotional character scene seconds later be followed by a humorous quip or even worse the emotional scene ends with a humorous line. The transformers movies may have a line or two of humorous dialog in their climax but they still take their third act seriously. In the third act of a marvel movie the characters go into one liner overdrive constantly spouting witty puns and one liners having witty banter with each other, humor is frequent killing any tension the climax has.

The good guys might lose a marvel climax yeah sure, AOA had the heroes fighting an army of robots while also evacuating an entire city not only do they succeed but they also manage to destroy the robots and do so without taking any hints. Iron man 2's climax is like that as well, guardians climax is a lot like that as well except for Nebula and Ronan who they turned into a fool at the end for a good laugh.

Loki fights Thor and does well this is especially impressive considering Thor fought Hulk and did well so when Hulk confronts Loki he should put up a fight instead Loki's threat and menace are thrown aside for you guessed it a good laugh.

The villains are so one dimensional Pierce said the same thing every government villain did there was no reason why he joined Hydra or why he believed killing twenty million people would bring order, peace and freedom to the world at least Attingers motivation made sense.

Megatron is better than almost every villain in the franchise except for Loki and Ultron that is not bad he has a motive, he has a personality that he shows and he even has brief moments of humanity but most importantly he has an actual character arc aside from Loki and Ultron you can't say that about many of the marvel villains.

The problem is you expect henchmen to be characterized but are random hydra grunts characterized no are random chitauri soldiers characterized no, neither are aim or military because they're minions they're flunkies. Starscream is crossbones, Soundwave is Major Sparring from Incredible Hulk while Megatron is the main bad guy. Every transformer character has a story but all their stories are not doable in a movie.

The decepticons do have moments when they are about to win every single film actually the autobots don't start winning until the last fifteen minutes of the movie literally the rest of the movie the decepticons are running circles around them.

The marvel movies do not have character development they have dialog scenes that are supposed to be character development. The avengers has what twenty minutes on the helicarrier of just them talking and no character develops at all Banners one dialog scene with Tony is supposed to be his big character arc. Thor has one scene with Coulson. Cap and Tony bicker endlessly but never actually have the moment when they put aside their differences for the greater good they just work together.

Tony's arc is about how he has to learn to work with others while showing he actually is a hero, you mean essentially what he went through in Iron Man 2 and then it's rehashed yet again in Age of Ultron. Banners arc is just a half assed version of his Incredible Hulk arc. That's how marvel does character their more concerned with them being witty, funny and likable than they are with them being actually interesting characters they'll throw character arcs under the bus at a moments notice much like what happened to Banner and how Iron Man 3 was just forgotten, not only is the character writing not good it is actually some of the worst character writing i've ever seen from a big budget franchise and absolutely one of the worst character writing i've seen from a superhero movie franchise.

The plots are always take over the world plots which is transformers is as well but transformers has layers to it mystery and other things that slowly unravel it's not until the final third of the movie that the take over the world stuff comes into play. With marvel it's just good guys vs bad guys there isn't even a hint of complexity to the story the villains have one dimensional motivations and the heroes don't really go through any personal struggle. Nothing comes even close to Optimus age of extinction arc.

Which goes to one marvels biggest problem emotion they just don't focus on it the farm bits were supposed to be emotional but the only thing that seemed sincere was black widow and Banner. Every marvel film bumps into that Coulson's death is supposed to be sad but the movie can't properly focus on the emotion. A character may as well be forbidden to cry or even scream I was amazed Scarlet witch's reaction to quicksilver was so real because marvel is awful with that the character lost a friend sit them down put their head down and talk quiet, there almost every emotion in a marvel movie compare that to Optimus or the some of the scenes between Cade and Tessa like when she's about to shot or when she's being taken. Cades emotions show because he's allowed to scream he's allowed to panic he's allowed to be frantic how can anyone deny this.

Death in marvel is meaningless every movie since Thor has had at least two fake out deaths. That is stupid how am i supposed to fear for the characters if in the entire franchise other than villains there are only two real deaths two real deaths in twelve movies, Yinsid and quicksilver. Yinsid's death is required for the origin and quicksilver was mostly a throwaway character never mind the fact that originally he was meant to survive.

Transformers on the other hand other than Optimus and Bumblebee I fear for the autobots they have causalities every movie, Jazz, Arcee, Jetfire, Iron hide, Wheeljack, Wheelie, Ratchet, leadfoot. That's about as many autobots that are killed in the arc massacre in the animated movie and other than Arcee and Wheeljack I like all of those characters, i was actually worried Hound was going to die in the final battle. So there's your tension at least when characters die in transformers for the most part it matters.

The marvel movies also haven't had really any game changers accept for the hydra reveal New york was meant to be one but the consequences of it in the movies are minimum. Chicago's consequences were fully shown a large chunk of Age of Extinction was about the consequences of Dark of the Moon. The introduction of the creators was also a game changer as was Sentinels betrayal for Dark of the Moon, Optimus's death in Revenge of the fallen, big events that change the direction of the movies plot other than winter soldier and Iron man 3 Marvel doesn't really have these.

The marvel movies are cliche they do exactly what you expect them to do they don't take risks, they don't do anything really unexpected and they always play it safe with their characters. Transformers don't do what you expect other than there being a cybertronian artifact a conspiracy of some sort and a huge battle at the end other than those three anything can happen being it Optimus's mentor betraying the Autobots or Optimus dying or even losing sight of his morals. You also have things such as Autobots being brutally hunted down, or a city being completed massacred on screen or them using a character as obscure as the Fallen. They don't play it safe with characters be it giving Megatron a mentor, or even showing him weak and defenseless, or turning Optimus's mentor into a villain, or actually having humans be the central threat for a large chunk of the forth movie, there not afraid to make Sam unlikable if it suits what they're doing Marvel is terrified of making a main character unlikable. Optimus prime shows they aren't afraid of taking a beloved character and doing something different with him rather than what's been done before. They aren't afraid to brutally kill off a beloved character like Iron Hide.

The Transformer movies have balls they don't care if you disagree with what they did they're telling their vision and nothings going to change that their not gonna bring someone back from the dead just because fans liked that character their not going to undo something they did just because audiences didn't agree with it they are not going to let fans control them.

The marvel movies have no balls they won't even consider killing off an actual beloved character and if they do you can bet money they'll bring them back they rarely will do something that the fans might not agree with and if they do they'll back pedal on it fast the Mandarian says hi.

They won't do anything risky with a main character Captain America's morals will remain strong no matter what even if questioning them might better story, Tony will always be witty and funny and will never go to a truly dark place even if doing so means butchering some of his best stories. PTSD a great idea to show how Tony has been affected but wait that would betray our established tone that people like play it for laughs, Optimus PTSD and yeah it was definitely that he was traumatized wasn't played for laughs, so who is the more mature one the one with fart jokes or the one that plays serious issues like PTSD and takes really traumatized characters like banner and turns them into Snarky comic relief, whose the more immature one, the one that has some really goofy and over the top characters or the one where death has no meaning.

What continuity do you prefer the one where everything does fit together but most of it is irrelevant and events like Age of Ultron which should be earth shattering are filler or the one where everything doesn't always fit together very well but events actually matter, Chicago being massacred matters, the autobots being betrayed by humanity matters, Optimus being betrayed by his mentor matters. Megatron getting half his faced blown off matters.

The story in marvel movies are well executed I admit this and the transformers aren't always but it doesn't matter the marvel movies offer nothing new just the same cliche story i've seen again and again, the same character arc of jerk becomes less of a jerk, there's nothing there.

The Transformer movies give me intriguing reimaginings of government conspiracies and human history as well as very ambitious stories that may not always come together perfectly but always have a few twists in them. Only a transformer movie could open up with a simple scene of humans hunting a lone autobot and end with a huge battle against an army of man made drones controlled by their resurrected enemy while a bounty hunter uses a giant ship to tear Hong Kong apart. Why because only the transformer movies at least recently anyway try to juggle multiple different central plot points. Sure the marvel movies execute it better but how could you not execute Avengers or guardians plot right it's so easy I don't feel the writers are really trying they're just setting up the next movie they do good but they're only aiming to be okay and relying on everything else to make it good.

The transformers struggle yes but you can tell they are trying they could've gone the easy route and just had the hunted plot saved everything for a sequel but they decided no we can do more forget about the sequel focus on this movie, and they did they dared to be ambitious they dared to do too much rather than too little because they wanted to give it their all, they wanted this movie to be everything it could be rather they succeeded or not is debatable but I would rather watch movie that dared to do too much over a movie that didn't bother to even try to do a lot because they knew doing a little guarantees they succeed. a movie that would try to do a good emotional character arc maybe not succeed but try over a movie that only does the most basic of character arcs to insure they succeed. I prefer the movie that would risk everything than the movie unwilling to risk anything.

And that is why some people prefer Transformers to Marvel yes marvel executes everything right but they won't risk anything, and that limits creativity. The Transformer movies make a lot of mistakes but they are willing to take risks and see if they pay off that allows them to learn and embrace new ideas and for me that's what really matters the characters may not always be likable or even well written but there is an emotional core that is just not there in marvel. That is the difference for those of us who prefer them something just feels like it is actually at stake actions will have very real consequences and the characters will be changed by events, rather it's executed perfectly or not doesn't matter that alone makes all the difference.

 

Here is my personal question to you. You feel Xmen 3 is better than Cap 2? No sarcasm, seriously asking.

 

Even the people who made some of those movies disagree with you. Just go watch the Deadpool Teaser Teaser.

I vaguely recall AoE's "third act" literally starting off with the Autobots riding in on robot dinosaurs that didn't matter to the plot not more than fifteen minutes before. Kind of hard to take that seriously when the dinobots existed only for the cool factor and nothing else.

"What would you be without me, Prime?"
"Let's find out"

literally the last exchange between Optimus and a crippled Megatron in DOTM, ten minutes before the film ends.

"GIVE ME YOUR FACE"

The most famous Prime one liner, to this day it still doesn't make sense even in context.

*Optimus flies off at the end of AoE because he can suddenly fly off the planet under his own power*
Non-sequitr much?

You mean like the previous three transformers films?

The guy was utterly dumbfounded - he seriously thought he was a god and yet a dancing moron just showed up and one-upped him by actually having god powers save his ass from a stupidly risky move that should have outright killed him (as demonstrated with the maid chick earlier in the film)

Except Loki at this point in time actually won Avengers - getting arrested only put him back in Asguard and away from the Chitari making him pay for pretty much failing them and after the events of Thor 2, Loki's in control of Asguard which had been his objective in the first film, and Thor doesn't have a fucking clue Loki's taken over in Odin's place.

It's called "fascism" - if you actually believed all that bullshit Pierce said about Hydra bringing peace or some shit, you believed it more than the character saying it. HYDRA has been about total world domination since day one - they're effectively modernized Nazis.

Or, to use a Transformers comparison - it's G1 Megatron's own ideology of "Peace Through Tyrany" where peace will come if everything is forced into being united under one banner, voluntarily or not. Except with HYDRA they never had good intentions initially, their founder was more batshit than Hitler after all.

>Says Ultron didn't have a character arc
>Ultron's entire goal was extreme world peace by exterminating humanity because he'd come to believe that world peace would be impossible so long as humans existed.

>Says Loki doesn't have a character arc
>Loki went from getting slammed around at the end of Avengers to pretending to be Odin and controling all of Asguard within less than a month, approximately. Oh, yeah, and the one person who he genuinely loved? Mommy dearest got murdered and Loki had real problems with that - it's the only reason why he helps Thor defeat the Dark Elves.

Gee, so you're saying that absolutely none of these following members of the Decepticon army are characterized?

Funny, didn't they do exactly that in the 1986 film? And that was a rip off of Star Wars Episode IV, too!

Yeah, this happening every time with the solution being the exact same method of Optimus just beating the shit out of the bad guy one-on-one kind of gets boring because you know how it ends.

None of the Marvel films end the same way.

...what do you think character development usually is?

You don't watch sitcoms do you?

You know literally nothing about the marvel comics do you? Cap vs Iron Man on that scale is kind of a big deal.


Like, "it's a clash of personalities and ideals so diametrically opposed there's going to be an entire goddamn film based on what happens when Cap and Iron Man come to blows" big deal.

All I got from this is you're saying characters can not be witty, funny, and likable and be interesting.

Nope.

Thor - Titular character gets exiled to Earth, Loki pretty much spends the entire film trying to prevent him from coming back home.

Captain America 2 - the take over the world thing actually already happened by HYDRA having infiltrated shield over several decades. The entire plot becomes the good guys trying to stop the helicarriers from killing pretty much anybody that could pose a minor problem to HYDRA at the least all the way to other superheroes (Tony's name does show up in the target list before the carriers are reprogrammed to kill each other instead).

Ant-Man - literally just a guy who is like Superman Returns Lex Luthor selling dangerous weaponized technology to terrorists and the good guys pulling off a psuedo-heist to stop him.

Age of Ultron - Ultron's not trying to take over the world, he's trying to recreate a global extinction event. And then he'll rule over the lifeless planet but that's a side benefit to the actual plan.

Remind me what the plot of ROTF was. Pretty sure The Fallen didn't give a damn about ruling over a planet he'd been trying to obliterate for millennia.

Yeah, because Loki actually being an adopted Frost Troll and having major inferiority complex issues totally isn't on the same level as Prime getting more development four films in a row.

You do realize whose farm that was, right? Whose kids those were?

It's almost like he's not dead or something...oh yeah, he's not.

It's almost like immediately mourning the dead in a combat situation is a really dumb idea for people who are used to fighting with those kinds of stakes.

You just undermined your own point - is Cade the one beating the snot out of evil generic robots? No? Then using humans for emotion instead of the transformers themselves only highlights the problem you think you're answering instead.

You literally just commented on how you liked the emotion Scarlet showed when her brother died.

Quicky's not coming back, either.

Oh, and remind me how many times Prime has died in this entire franchise and stayed the fuck dead until the series he died in was truly over?

So...Thor's mother, Coulson, pretty much everybody from the 1940's that Cap knew, Quicksilver, the families of Star Lord, Gamora, and Drax from GotG, and a few others I'm probably forgetting don't count?

Oh, and you probably forgot Zola from Captain America 2, a.k.a. the dude in the bunker computer - he died too.

Wanna know something funny? Barely any of them die from Decepticons.

Megatron, Not-Bonecrusher, kills himself, Sentinel (who is very adamant that he's not a Decepticon even after killing Ironhide), heroic sacrifice, humans, humans.

So, what, out of eight deaths you name across four films, less than half of them even occur by the hands of the bad guys?

Yes, it only took the films nearly a decade to work up a body count equaling a five minute sequence from a film thirty years old. Maybe in another decade after Megatron gets brought back from the dead another five times he'll be able to equal G1 Megatron's movie kill count.

But he didn't.

Are you implying that fake-outs of characters almost dying are better than characters actually dying in significant ways and only coming back through logical, plot relevant means, but otherwise staying dead?

Events of Avengers 1 directly leads to the creation of the super helicarriers that Cap has to destroy in CA2, which the subsequent implosion of HYDRA leadership leads into the opening of Avengers 2 where they're cleaning up one of the last remaining "old" cells of facists, which the ultimate result of involving the destruction of an entire city is implied - through the stinger at the end of Ant-Man - to set the groundwork for the MCU bringing on the Superpower registration acts, which will lead to that Cap vs Iron Man confrontation you so dearly want and lead everybody into the Civil War storyline.

Oh, yeah, and Thanos makes an appearance every time a new Infinity Gem pops up. We're at 4/6 right now and Thanos has one of the two Infinity Gauntlets (even in the comics there's only one so 100% more gauntlets is not a good thing) so each of those stones changes the game by bringing the overall MCU plot closer to Thanos finally getting off that damn chair and laying the smackdown on folks.

Literally every film is a game changer, you just have to pay attention.

Yes, because the government organization charged with protecting the world from supers actually turning out to be full of power hungry nazis that almost killed every superhero on the planet totally means people still trust SHIELD wholeheartedly when AoU rolls around.

Not.

I get the impression you haven't even seen Ant-Man...

That's literally the plot of every TF film so far. Without exception. I'd be surprised only if they didn't do this shit next time.

And they haven't done it since. I wonder why.

You mean how he's been weak and defenseless at the end of the last three films?

IDW actually did it first.

Because it's not like the Decepticons matter or anything despite existing for no reason other than to be the opposition to the autobots because last I checked the franchise is supposed to be about a civil war between aliens that gets relocated to Earth by accident.

There's nothing special about Autobots vs. humans - you could replace the autobots with any other alien race and get the same general result.

AoU only happens because Tony gets manipulated and his self-righteous ego decides that messing around with alien tech schematics to the point of quoting the one line infamously associated with being completely wrong about what it's talking about (the first time "peace in our time" was said, Hitler went and invaded Poland).

Thor is kind of an asshole, too.

Then why don't they work up the nut to just permanently off Optimus Prime once and for all? There's no bigger game changer than a permanently dead Optimus Prime.

*cough*Megatron*cough*

They changed the design of Megatron in the first film specifically because of fan outcry. Didn't know that, didya?

You have no grasp of how fucking popular Coulson is.

You really, really don't.

Wrong.

The Mandarian in IM3 was a fake. The real Mandarian didn't like that and so now he's showing up, starting with teaching the impostor a lesson.

Oh no, defining character attributes! THE HORROR

IM3 and AoU only happen because Tony is a depressive alcoholic and tends to build dangerous things that backfire on him in those states.

Again, he only builds Ultron because he thinks it's the only way to prevent the deaths of the other Avengers and by extension the world. He's chewed out for making the thing that is probably going to kill the rest of the Avengers and by extension the world as a result.

And he's really lambasted about the matter when his solution to Ultron is literally doing the exact same fucking thing all over again.

You left the theatre before Age of Ultron even ended didn't you, because you'd know what you just said about Hulk is wrong given the last thing he's seen doing.

Oh, please, explain how the fuck the Transformers film continuity makes any kind of sense. Seriously, I'd love to know.

...why do I get the feeling I've had almost this exact argument with you before under different usernames on a non-transformer related site.

Because I know I've had to explain how things don't have to immediately happen in order to remain in continuity in answering an argument eerily similar to this...

Because that shit didn't happen in the first film, the Autobots haven't actually been betrayed by humanity three times in every movie past the first, Optimus having to face some aspect of being a Prime doesn't happen in every film since the first, and Megatron having already died twice by means that should have permanently made him forever dead never happened.

Oh, wait, all that shit is true.

Again, you clearly haven't seen Ant-Man.

What, you're saying that nazis having infiltrated SHIELD over the course of 70 years and undoing the one agency tasked with handling all the superpowered problems of the world isn't a government conspiracy?

Because apparently District 9 never happened?

But you said earlier that all the Marvel films are just the "jerk becomes less of a jerk" plotline done over and over.

Are you implying that maybe there's more to the films than just the same plot over and over?

You'd rather watch an incomprehensible mess than a film that actually tells a story?

You do realize the only reason AoE exists is because Paramount didn't want to risk changing a thing about the money-printing TF film series, right?

Did you even know what Guardians of the Galaxy even was before the film came out?

You say The Fallen is obscure. There are marvel fans who have never heard of Guardians of the Galaxy. You can not say the same about TF fans since everybody knows who The Fallen is in these circles (because he was the dude constantly on fucking fire! and also in the one good comic series Dreamwave made; War Within, which netted him the most popular 6" Titanium collector's figure toy later on)

But that's not how the film industry works - something doesn't do well at the box office, film studios aren't going to throw more money at it. Because film studios are businesses, they will invest money but only because they expect to make more money in return. Nobody can afford to burn $250 million on a guy who wants to do something experimental unless he has the track record to prove it.

Case in point: Michael Bay. Paramount wouldn't even entertain the idea of him being able to do a film he wanted to truly do - Pain and Gain - until he'd given them the billion-dollar making DOTM.

Why do you think everything is being rebooted these days? The film industry is somehow frightened at the idea of actively trying to put out new films that aren't retreading territory that hasn't proven to be profitable in the past.

Gotta agree here - X-men 3 was so bad, literally the entire point of Days of Future Past is erasing X-men 3 from even happening in the first place.

 

No cap two is a jewel in the MCU that the rest should aspire to be. I do like X men 3 more than almost all there other movies because I never understood the endless hatred X3 got the general complaint being they ruined the Dark Phoenix, which would be a good complaint if it were true.

All the complaints trace back to the exact same thing Cyclops which yes he was underused no argument there but X3 showed me something just because Cyclops was the main character in the comic story doesn't mean he has to be in every version which truthfully I originally thought absurd.

My point is X men 3 hit every important plot point of the dark phoenix saga and hit them well here's the rundown warning spoilers follow. The X men discover jean alive on the shore and bring her back to the mansion where Xaiver reveals he supressed a portion of her powers which developed into a alternate entity known as the phoenix. An outside force called the hellfire club seeks to control Phoenix for their own purpose and mess with Jeans mind convincing her to join them. The x men try to persuade Jean to stay but fail and she joins the hellfire club. The X men try to rescue her but ultimately fail after cyclops mental connection to her is destroyed Jean snaps and turns into Dark Phoenix. Jean returns to her old home where the X Men track her once their Xaiver battles Phoenix in a psychic battle where she defeats him. Ultimately Jean can't control the phoenix and the others realize in order to save her they will have to kill her, Jean regains control of herself long enough to sacrifice her life for those she loves.

X men 3 The X men find Jean alive on the shore and bring her back to the mansion where Xaiver reveals he supressed a portion of jeans powers which developed into an entity known as the phoenix. Magneto senses jeans power and sets out to recruit her. Jean awakens in the mansion only for the phoenix to begin taking hold jean realizes she killed Cyclops causing her to snap transforming her into Dark Phoenix wolverine tries to convince her to stay with them but she refuses and leaves. In confusion she returns to her house where both the x men and the brotherhood track her their magneto begins to manipulate her to turn her against xaiver resulting in a psychic battle between the two of them resulting in phoenix killing him. confused and lost Jean joins magneto. Wolverine tracks her to Magneto's camp and tries to rescue her but fails. In the end Magneto tries to use Jean as a weapon but she refuses to help him eventually causing him to lose control of her resulting in her going on a rampage, the x men realize in order to save jean they must kill her. Jean regains control of herself long enough to allow wolverine to kill her sacrificing her life for those she loves.

It's the same story it's all their the heart and core of the story is intact every single essential element they hit the only difference being Wolverine takes Cyclops place and Magneto takes the hell fire clubs place. Cyclops is still the one who triggers her transformation the battle at her house still happens the psychic struggle happens. Jeans inner struggle still happens the attempted rescue mission still happens. It's still the same story deep down really the only thing that changed is Wolverine is the main character which he does just as good as Cyclops and Magneto is the villain which he also does just as good, the battle at her house happens in earlier and the deed jean does that convinces everyone they have to kill her is completely different I actually prefer her killing Xaiver to her consuming a star. They respected the story and kept everything that made it what it was how could i not like it it was so dramatic and so emotional.

The cure arc I thought was good as well hitting all the right notes of gifted before the comic went completely off the rails aliens should've never been a part of that story.

Some characters don't get as much screentime but it's not their story so I'm going to complain that Colossus, Angel and rogue got decreased screentime, I'm going to focus on the great character arcs of wolverine, jean, Storm, Magneto, Xaiver, Bobby although less so on that one, and the strong characterization of beast the deep polictal and moral themes. And when looking at all that as shocking as it sounds in my opinion it's the best of trilogy because i'm not focusing on Cyclops, or angel or Colossus or rogue I'm focusing on who the movie was about and how the story was done and when looking at that way X men 3 was awesome.

For now I find Captain american 2 better but that could change because X men 3 did have great character arcs and emotion it was also unpredictable but for now no it's not better than Cap 2 but looking at everything i put I could see why some might think it is either way it is a great movie that did a good job on the dark phoenix arc and deserves way more than credit than it's given. Thanks for not being sarcastic about it, I know i can come off as overly aggressive and even mean in truth i posted a comment today that i regret posting, but I just don't like that Marvel studios is considered the pinnacle of action movies as far as story and character goes. So while I don't like X men 3 more than winter soldier at least currently I do infinitely prefer the X men franchise to the marvel cinematic universe.

 

fair enough....cool man.

 

The issue a few people have with the Marvel movies is that their finales aren't melodramatic enough. It's like if the characters aren't flat out telling you "THE STAKES MY GOD THIS IS IMPORTANT" it kills "tension". The problem is that A) the stakes are established by the rest of the movie, and B) not every action beat is going for tension. There are little victories, character defining decisions, and all sorts of stuff. It doesn't need to just drone on with "THIS MATTERS LOVE ME OH GOD I NEVER KNEW MY FATHER" for 45 minutes.

Also, for the idea that Cap and Iron Man never have that moment where they put aside their differences, it happens literally every time shit gets real. Like they include a little beat where it happens every time.

Also, Captain America doesn't need to compromise, because his central character trait is that he has to do the right thing. He actually can't help himself. If he starts cutting off faces and wearing them for athletic cups because the cause demands it, then it's not Captain America.

 

I think there is something about over excess that really throws me out of the action of a film.

To get away from Marvel and Transformers for a moment if someone asked me which was the better fight, Batman vs Joker in the Dark Knight or Superman vs Zod in Man of Steel I wouldn't have to hesitate to pick Batman vs Joker. I don't need buildings to crumble or the ground to split from the impact of a punch for a good fight. I'll take the action of a Bruce Lee film where it's just some guy getting his ass kicked over Hulkbuster and Hulk see how much city they can tear up.

I feel like action movie directors need to be watch martial arts movies when they are designing the big fight scenes instead of watching disaster movies to see how stuff they can cram into the background of the fight.

 

But do they actually think if audiences hated a movie you liked would you stand up for it or throw it under the bus and protect your career, it's next to impossible to determine if a creator likes a movie or not because they will follow the crowd naturally they have to if they want to insure their career has a future.

Not a good start on your defense the autobots riding dinobots doesn't happen until about half way into the climax and i don't see what the problem here is. The dinobots are shown to be imprisoned on Lockdown's ship he captured them while collecting all the knights of cybertron if you missed that statement whose fault is it. The dinobots were mostly just set up for the creators in this film it's already been stated they'll be back in tranformers 5 which is no different than Marvel setting up Thanos.

We found out who he was without Megatron it wasn't pretty also that's not a witty line Optimus doesn't really have wit. People will never let that go it was one line that probably should've been changed big deal. Optimus was upgraded when he grabbed the sword his body is actually shown transforming once again your problem

Except they do take hits Optimus is shot down the autobots are forced to scatter and flee from Shockwave Optimus is beat by Sentinel. In Revenge the military is losing until precious cargo happens about the last third of the climax you actually see the arcees being gunned down while Iron Hide is being flanked his cannons are visibly destroyed, Jetfire is stabbed by Scorponok Optimus has his jet engine ripped off as well as being put in an arm bar. Those are hits in Marvel heroes don't get hit period with a few exceptions, Avengers almost the entire climax is the chitauri being the avengers punching bag, there is one scene of them losing that is almost immediately followed by the chitauri's defeat, the only other wounds are Thor's stab wound which the main villain inflicts, and caps encounter with the bomb which was legit. No transformer was as one sided as Age of ultron you should not be able to evacuate an entire city and destroy an entire army of robots without any casualties or even really taking any damage at all, quicksilver didn't die until after the battle was over.

You clearly didn't read my comment I stated every character has some kind of backstory but you can't do that with every character in a movie what's hydra soldier number 334's life story I mean he has one we just don't know it, in transformers there is no soldier 334 there all characters and that's not possible in a movie.

Oh boy you have those goggles on tight what was Cyclonus's personality or Scourge or the sweeps. what was the each constructicons personality or Ravage or ratbat. there were dozens and dozens of robots in the animated movie however there were what a dozen characters that actually had more than ten lines. Now I know you know all of them but's that because you watched all the shows and read all the comics for a non fan it would just be a bunch of robots they could name probably half a dozen of them tops.

you didn't read anything I said Ultron and Loki had character arcs but you're not actually paying attention.

What's it matter they're still dead and how many maximals were killed by predacons, Dinobot essentially killed himself, Depthcharge commited suicide killing Rampage, Air razor and Tigertron fused together by the vok, Tigerhawk killed by the nemesis, Optimus tricked by megatron, Tankor/Rhinox killed by Optimus when he opened the plasma energy chamber, Noble savage killed by Megatron, Optimus sacrifices himself. Only three were killed by the bad guys so tell me what's the difference. The animated movie is the only time Autobots died in G1 so it was a big deal, animated kills two autobots only one killed by a decepticon. The decepticons aren't known for killing autobots so the fact that they killed three or four directly does apply because it's still a higher count than any other tv show.

Yes i am because the resurrection of said character is a major plot point and requires risk in itself, also Optimus and Megaton are the only characters who have been resurrected all of them a central role to their movies no one else has come back Sam was between life and death but not quite dead yet. Jarvis was dead, fury was dead, Loki was dead, Groot was dead, Bucky was dead, you see my point all deaths and most of them faked for no real reason Fury's role in AOA was not important someone else could've played that role, Groots death was actually emotional there was no reason to bring him back, there was no point in having Jarvis survive especially considering he just merges with Vision afterwards who isn't Jarvis anyway. Loki and Bucky are the only fake deaths that matter.

I didn't say Loki was bad quite the opposite but they did disregard his power and menace all for the good laugh at the characters expense his plan has worked pretty well actually but i doubt it was planned we didn't even see when he took odins place.

Happily, now listen carefully maybe Megatron had a back up plan in case something went wrong and maybe the creators built the allspark to bring their creations to life how is this so difficult to grasp, The knights of cybertron came before the Prime's or more likely the Prime's were among them it's not brain surgery it's very easy to understand provided you actually take the time to think.

I flat out stated Winter soldier was an exception, that twist was good however other than Shield which you don't need to watch to understand the impact it had wasn't large as it should've been Shield being gone is not really mentioned and then Fury rebuilds it at the end why bother dismantling it if you're just going to bring it back in the next movie, it renders a lot of winter soldier pointless which is a shame since it's easily their best story.

Actually no you haven't because I've never gotten into a debate about marvel anywhere else at least not that i remember.

Each perceived betrayal adds to the dynamic the first movie they see them as enemies the second they're working with them reluctantly but believe the planet would be safer if they were not there the third they exile them from the planet and the fourth they're finally hunting and killing them, that's an ongoing story arc that finally came to a head in Age of Extinction yes it was a shadow group but it was still the result of what happened in Chicago.

There's nothing special about the Autobots fighting against the race they were sworn to protect bull crap it adds a whole new dimension to have the autobots fighting against what they were risking their life for, there allies are now their enemy. How is that not special oh because it's humans and everything human in transformers is worthless.

Except Captain America hasn't always done the right thing exposing shield to the world wasn't only unwise it was selfish beyond all measures his speech about the price of freedom rings a little hollow when his freedom isn't the one being sacrificed. He's willing ruining thousands of peoples lives so he can keep his morals that's not heroic that's selfish and it's not the right thing to do, Fury said he had a solution Cap could've at least give him a minute and hear him out no this goes against what I believe so we're going to tear down a major part of our countries defense ruin thousands of peoples lives sending just as many to prison and willing sacrifice their freedom so Steve doesn't have to compromise his morals. That's wrong and when the movie depicted Steve's choice as right we were supposed to like him for it I was disgusted no I'm not going to support something that sacrifices peoples freedom and what is essentially their lives for one man's morals.

I'm aware the whole point of Ultron was that Tony built him but the scene where everyone calls him out on it comes off as just a typical argument they don't act like Tony just started the end of the world. Also the scene where Tony wants to do the exact same thing I like that they acknowledge that but then they do the same damn thing they always do they prove Tony right every bad choice except for Ultron which in the end wasn't even fully his fault the sceptor and the stone did most the work, but every bad choice he makes proves to be right he is always right even if his actions put others in danger he is always right, repeating what happened with Ultron is beyond stupid the only thing stupider proving Tony right, your essentially saying it was alright for Tony to come up with such a stupid idea and that it was actually the right one, wow nothing like bending over backwards to insure Tony makes up for his mistake. I don't care that they acknowledge it's a bad or more accurately stupid idea I care that this beyond stupid idea is proven right.

They didn't kill Coulson they brought him back believe me I cared in Avengers when he died then they brought him back with no intention of actually having him in the movies making his whole resurrection pointless.

That Hulk scene was good Banner going into self imposed exile cutting himself off from everyone he cares about including the woman he loves because he fears he will hurt wait a minute haven't I seen this before, in well The incredible Hulk wasn't that a central part of the movie was his fear that he would hurt people that he wanted to be alone and shut himself off so what i should praise a movie and character for repeating an arc that was already done and done better.

Guardians of the galaxy was never a risk because they wrote every character the same way, Rocket Raccoon is a psychopath in the comics at least some of them, Drax is not a funny character and his self destructive ways are played dead straight, Gamora is emotionally dead inside, how in the hell with characters like these did disney and marvel come up with comedy, I will never understand how guardians turned out the way it did when it's main characters are so messed up.

No characters can be snarky and interesting but you have to know when to drop the humor Tony is an interesting character just read the comics but the movie is too concerned with focusing on his humor and ego his ego they focus on pretty well but there is so much more Tony is self destructive on a level that's it almost tragic he once tore apart his own brain to insure none of the secrets he carried would get out. Tony is egotistical but he's nowhere near as self destructive as he usually is and that's because to do Tony and his story arc true justice you need a darker tone. I mean what's your justification for how armor wars, demon in a bottle, and extremis were treated.

I don't care about the real Mandarian because he's not showing up any time soon, and probably should've existed the creators made their choice then everyone complained and they backpedaled fast but all this does is create an unresolved plot point that you will likely never resolve because Robert Downey junior is likely retiring after Infinity war, they should've just left it the way it was or just do the Mandarian right to begin with.

District nine is one of the best movies in a long time but I don't consider it an action movie, I love it it's a great film but I see it as a character drama.

It's not about being an asshole once again marvel relies too much on that it's about the character actually not being likable you don't like them you want to see what their doing blow up in their face, so when it does the movie can make the characters regret their actions and if the writing good enough can even make you regret not liking the character. Note I'm not saying transformer does this, a proper example of what i put would definitely be the spiderman movies Peter does stuff that you don't like him for throughout yet more often than not anyway in the end the film makes you like him anyway by actually showing his suffering the same holds true for Harry.

And yet Age of extinction was darker, redesigned the robots had a different cast a completely different relationship between the main human characters, humor was drastically reduced, didn't really feature the decepticons, turned the Autobots into a fractured unit who would fight each other as often as their enemies and Optimus was depicted as a broken and rageful person who was prepared to abandon humanity to their fate. Sounds pretty different to me. There wasn't anything like that in the others it literally isn't until the Galvatron reveal that the film starts to feel like the others before that it feels different. A similar final battle with a mcguffin doesn't make it the same movie or can I start calling the Avengers, Thor the dark world, The First Avenger, Age of Ultron, Guardians, and Thor the same movie just because they all have mcguffins this goes back to what you continue to ignore there's more to the movies than the ending the conspiracy the relic and the battle are not all the movie is about just actually try to remember something other than the last third it won't kill you.

There aren't any original ideas to use anyway not for blockbusters at least if you can think of a continuation to a classic why not your idea won't work for something else and really rebooting and continuing classics is just as much of risk if not more because fans and audience are very biased towards classics and will be judging this film very closely making certain it is as perfect as the classic film which in truth more often than not isn't perfect or anywhere near but their great movies problem audiences aren't looking for a great movie with you they're looking for a near perfect one and if your not remaking something they're looking for something completely original which is really hard to find, which pretty much means you're screwed either way.

I'm not asking for the climax to be melodramatic I'm asking for the characters to act like there in an end of the world situation I'm asking the tone to match the situation if the world is ending take it seriously.

I don't agree with you on those two fights but only because of two things, one the batman joker isn't very well shot, two The Superman Zod fight does have emotion it's why I like it so much it wasn't about mindless destruction it was about the horror of what would happen if gods battled in a mortal world all leading up to the moment where Superman has to sacrifice his people, his place among them and his own morals all to do the right thing, that inspires me because I couldn't do that, that is what a true hero is someone who will do everything to protect the innocent and will disregard their own needs in order to protect it, what they want, what they believe, their dreams, their morals they will sacrifice it all to insure no one else has to that is true selflessness.

Incomprehensible for you maybe not for me I understand the plot perfectly I know exactly how everything ties together be it a character arc or main arc I know how all seven arcs in the film weave together to form one story. To me AOE is one with the actual story not The Avengers I've already stated why so there's no reason to state it all again long story short watch all the action scenes of Avengers you'll actually understand the plot of the movie, watch all the action scenes of Dark of the moon or Age of Extinction you'll be confused out of your mind.

Nice that you automatically assume the poster agrees with you for all you know he likes X men 3 maybe he doesn't I don't know but of course you assume your opinion is the one he's thinking because it's impossible he thinks what i'm thinking you're opinion must be the one that he approves, because a transformer movie fan can never be right, am i correct? I'm done with this pointless time consuming debate because it's not a debate you'll disagree with my criticisms but you won't bother to listen to my perspective and there's no point talking about the transformer movies with someone who can't even be bothered to remember the actual details of the story, post whatever response you want I'm done wasting my time on this.

 

In fairness, it was your choice to write, y'know, like a lot!

 

Robert Orci: Hey Alex, take a look at what this Lord Tron wrote about why our TF movies are better than the Marvel movies.

Alex Kurtzman: OK. (two hours later) Finally finished reading all that. Where is he getting this stuff?

Robert Orci: No idea. Call Ehren.

Ehren Kruger: Hello.

Alex Kurtzman: Hey Ehren, Bob and I read this...

Ehren Kruger: Those Lord Tron manifestos, yeah, just finished reading them. I feel like an artist who spilled paint on a canvas and was told it captured the full range of the human experience or some shit like that.

Robert Orci: No kidding, he put more thought into a handful of internet board posts than we've put into all our TF scripts combined.

Ehren Kruger: Should we tell him that we were instructed by Mike to just string together scenarios that bridge one ILM event to the next and just collect our checks?

Robert Orci: Naw, that'd break his heart.

 

M. Night Shamalayan's The Last Airbender.

QED

Thanos doesn't get plastered all over the advertising for the Marvel films and then pull a bait-switch by only showing up for half of the climatic battle. Everybody went to AOE thinking that film would be heavily about the Dinobots...nobody goes to a Marvel film thinking it's going to be about Thanos because he's not in the advertising. Yet.

But why does the sword magically give him a better upgrade than his trailer from the previous film? It makes no sense.

Shockwave doesn't even show up again after Chernobyl until the final battle in Chicago.

Screencap?

And also get shot by gun emplacement form Mixmaster I'm not seeing how this changes the fact Jetfire was still talking until he rips out his heart or something. All Scorpy did was grevously wound him, which isn't the same as suicide.

You're telling me Thor isn't getting stabbed here?

And Iron Man looks like he's dead after saving New York from getting nuked by throwing it at the motherships instead.

Didn't you say that the most emotional thing in AoE was when Hound almost died? Kind of running a double standard here...

You don't understand zerg/invasion rush tactics, do you?

The basic Chitari forces are shock troopers that are well expected to suffer heavy if not total casualties.

The idea is that the defenders spend so much time and energy fighting off the first forces that they'll be unable to fight off the reinforcements still pouring through the portal. As long as the portal remained open, the Avengers could not win.

You seriously think there weren't civie casulties? Just because the movie didn't spend time being sadistic and showcasing people getting murdered by Ultron Clones doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Who the hell is HYDRA soldier 334?

They were all Galvatron's yes men.

Ever heard of tech specs?

That's still more robots talking than in all of AOE.

I can't tell if you're talking about the G1 poster I put up in my last post or my mother's reaction to trying to watch ROTF.

Red Skull - he's driven by the idea of an aryan facist state more than Hitler, but also has an insecurity about how Captain America was chosen as the "ideal" subject for the super soldier serum over Red Skull himself.

Seriously, your definition of "character arc" is weak if you don't account for everything the character is about - not only goals but motivations, flaws, etc

How is the structure of the entireity of Beast Wars remotely similar to the films? The cartoon can't kill off characters willy nilly because dead characters in cartoons don't sell too well, but Beast Wars in particular was the first CGI cartoon ever made - killing characters at all was not a drop-of-a-hat decision to be made due to the limited resources.

Oh, yeah, and Megatron actually succeeded in killing Optimus Prime (if only temporarily) so that's a big kill you aren't counting "just" because Prime wasn't a Maximal.

Alpha Trion.

QED.

Autobots shown to be dead during the 1986 film (off the top of my head):

Ark:
-Prowl
-Ratchet
-Ironhide
-Huffer

City Battle:
-Windcharger
-Wheeljack
-Mirage (originally planned to be shown dead in storyboarding, cut from final version)

That's seven dead bots right there not including Prime just off the top of my head.

So the "Starscream destroys the Xantium" scene never happened then.

Man you have no concept of what those were all about.

Jarvis: technically didn't die - sure, the main portion got gutted by Ultron but through some emergency protocol the key portions of his intelligence got pushed to that Sweedish supercomputer and unknowingly worked to prevent Ulti from getting his hands on nuke launch codes.

Fury: an entire army of assassins was trying to kill him. What better way to fix that problem then make them think he was dead? It also plays into his trump card where he reveals his scarred eye lets him back into the SHIELD mainframe and access all of HYDRA's secrets.

Loki: In norse mythology, Loki is the Asguardian god of trickery and deceit.

OF COURSE HE'D FAKE HIS DEATH SO NOBODY WOULD THINK HE'S STILL AROUND!

Groot: He's a sentient tree - he'd been growing back parts of his body all throughout the film so the idea a sapling from his remains couldn't just grow back into his full body is silly.

Bucky: You think it was nothing major to the Captain to find out that his best friend from WWII, who he thought had died because of his own failure to save him, was not only still alive but also brainwashed into serving the bad guys? He even pulls his punches in the final battle because he can't bring himself to kill Bucky.

Fury is the one who brings in the secret helicarrier to save the most of the citizens still trapped on the flying city, Groot being able to grow back is almost an assumed trait even if he didn't need to do it because he is a tree, and Jarvis is Vision - same VA and everything.

The guard who tells Odin that Loki died?

Hint: that was Loki.

So why then did the Ark crash land on the moon in the 1970's?

Fury's not really in charge of SHIELD anymore - he gave that job to Coulson in the S1 finale of Agents of SHIELD. In fact, most of the drama over what Coulson was doing in secret during the latter half of SHIELD S2?

Where the hell do you think Fury's magic hellicarrier came from?

Wasn't about marvel the other time, but that's not relevant to this discussion here.

All it does is make Prime look stupidly gullible and have no purpose in still trying to defend the humans - they obviously can take down cybertronians with ease now so why defend them when they'd just as soon attack you instead?

It destroys any sense of the Autobots actually making progress of repairing relations with humanity if they keep breaking down at the slightest problem.

Cap isn't actually that free, though - he's a soldier from another time. The only thing he can do is be a soldier.

You're saying it was wrong of Cap to expose a conspiracy where goddamn Nazis were about to indiscriminately mass murder millions of innocent people?

Because the fact SHIELD is all about the Inhumans now who are getting a film in a few years isn't import-OH WAIT A SECOND

You keep acting like the TF films are worth praise for doing the same shit over and over, don't you?

lol Rocket in the comics was originally a psychiatric facility staff member who looked like a fuzzy animal to comfort patients.

He just happened to be the security director.

Why do I need to justify things that I thought were utterly stupid to begin with?

Again, I never said IM3 was well written did I?

Now you're just being obtuse.

You mean all the human drama in a transformers film?

LEGO Movie.

QED.

But reaching that level of tension over and over gets boring.

...you literally just explained why DOTM and AoE have subjective action quality...

I don't even understand what you're on about here  

 

Man, I can't believe you waded through all that!

You've earned a beer, and a bloody good sit down!