there could still be the possibility that prime may had not wanted to risk the lifes of other Autobots as lets say Prime calls for help, but then Cementary Wind caughts up with him, then sends some jets to blow up the ship, thus ship ruined and more autobots life lost.

 

Sooo, Prime chose not to possibly risk the lives of the crew of an Autobot rescue ship, and instead, chose to certainly condemn his entire team on Earth to be hunted down and killed, and their remains desecrated to create an undead army of drones? That's some great leadership there. Last of the Primes indeed.

Actually, come to think of it, it's par for the course with the movie Primes. You know, the idiots who decided to commit mass suicide in order to make a hole to hid the Matrix of Leadership in, rather then simply destroying it and/or the Solar Harvester in order to keep The Fallen from ever being able to use them.

And in doing so, allowed The Fallen to corrupt Megatron, create the Decepticons and condemn the Cybertronian race to millions of years of civil war that would destroy countless lives, and eventually their world and the Allspark. No wonder The Creators want to have a word with Optimus. They're all stupid.

Jokes aside, that still leaves all those other ships unaccounted for that the Autobots could have escaped in, rather then stick around where they were no longer wanted, on Earth. Either Optimus stubbornly chose not to take a hint, and the rest of the Autobots to loyal to walk away, Or those responsible for the movie chose to ignore the facts they themselves created in the previous films.

 

They're dead. I even think there's another clue to this. Attinger says, "A handful of Autobots were given sanctuary after joint operations were abolished." I'm pretty sure by "handful of Autobots" he means the Autobots who we didn't see in AOE, and knowing Attinger I seriously doubt he has them in some Autobot wildlife refuge.

As for a possible ship that came to Earth after DOTM and carried Drift, Hound, and Crosshairs, it almost certainly would have been seized and harvested like the Decepticon ships leftover from Chicago.

 

Maybe, if Hound, Crosshairs and Drift left it wherever they landed and started wondering around. It would have been easy pickings. But that's unlikely. Either they would have come in response to Optimus Prime's first movie invitation -- it which case they would have attempted to contact the Earth Autobots to arrange a rendezvous before landing, and been warned of the situation. Or, they would have come in response to a distress signal sent after DOTM -- in which case they would have approached Earth with great caution and again, contacted the Autobots before landing.

Either way, the Autobot would have all piled onboard and left Earth ASAP. And no, I don't buy that KSI's tech -- before Lockdown showed up, mind you -- was advanced enough to have taken down a Cybertronian starship. Otherwise they would have taken down Lockdown before he ever managed to make a deal with them and then taken his tech anyway. Besides, the whole point was that all the Earth governments WANTED them to leave. Why would they have then prevented them from going. Or allowed KSI to do so? And again, what about all the other ships at their disposal?

No, sorry. Either they Autobots could have left Earth at any time before it got as desperate as it was by AOE, but chose to stay. Or the film makers "forgot" these things because it was more dramatic to have the Autobots be helpless and vulnerable against Humans, despite taking down large number of Decepticons in previous films.

 

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. We don't know exactly when Hound/Drift/Crosshairs first heard Optimus' message to come to Earth, and I don't think KSI/Cemetery Wind actually shot any Transformers ships out of the sky. We also don't know if Cemetery Wind/Lockdown had started hunting the Transformers on Earth before or after the new Autobots arrived.

Having said those things, if I were to guess the sequence of events and how they relate to the new Autobots, I'd think something along these lines.

1) The events of DOTM

2) Hound, Drift, and Crosshairs arrive on Earth in a ship.

3) Lockdown arrives on Earth/Cemetery Wind forms in secret. After harvesting the Transformium from the Chicago Decepticons and ships, KSI turns to other sources. Cemetery Wind/KSI secure the Autobot's ship and harvest it before the Autobots are even aware of the betrayal, leaving them without a ship.

The thing is the Lockdown/Cemetery Wind/KSI alliance was done in secret. Some Autobots were probably killed before the survivors realized what had happened. Any remaining Cybertronian ships that didn't belong to Lockdown were probably secured by Cemetery Wind and/or Lockdown and torn apart by KSI before the Autobots realized humanity's betrayal. Attinger even said it was a priority to get any ships or technology into American hands, and that several other countries had salvaged some ships.

Also, before realizing humanity's betrayal there may not have been any reason for their ship (assuming the new Autobots in AOE came after DOTM) to be heavily guarded.

It has nothing to do with helplessness, but it has everything to do with secrecy and betrayal. Also, the reason Cemetery Wind was so successful was because they had an incredibly skilled ally in Lockdown to help them take down Transformers, and additionally the Autobots no doubt hesitated fighting back against their former allies. Just look at Ratchet and how he tried to reason with the humans. He only even attempted to fight back after Lockdown attacks him from the swamp.

 

Why do people see this as a matter of opinion? They're dead until retconned otherwise.

In my opinion, gravity doesn't exist.

What? It's my opinion, you can't say otherwise.

 

True that.

 

Just bring back Dino and that'll suffice.  

 

I think for bad guys, they should stay dead. It shows the story progressing and the general public would get sick of seeing the same bad guys starting trouble and retreating in every episode and the same thing happening again in the next movie. With Autobots, people always have a favorite and if they died in a comic book, we wouldn't think they're gone for good. Maybe they die just to show how the Autobots deal with loss and try to move on. That's why I think there's room for doubt whether or not guys like Sideswipe are dead

 

That I would agree with.

And here it get's a little more shaky IMHO. While it is stated that KSI gathered up the remains of the Decepticons and their vehicles in the ruins of Chicago in the aftermath of DOTM, you have to remember that the Autobots had been banished from Earth during the events of DOTM, and most, if not all of their human allies were under the impression that the Xantium was their only way on or off Earth.

This is actually in keeping with what is said during ROTF, when Galloway complains that the Autobots have not freely shared their technology with mankind. Prime states emphatically that he believes that doing so would do more harm then good. So, it's doubtful humans had access to any other Autobot ships then the old and battered Xantium, so it was not great loss allowing it to be destroyed.

Of course there's also the matter of how long after Chicago that the Autobots had been betrayed. My guess -- and I stress that this is a guess -- it was in the immediate aftermath of DOTM. With all the Transformers exhausted from the long running battle, and the Decepticons rendered leaderless, there would never be a better time to take them all out. And with how close Earth had come to destruction, no better time to persuade the public.

Millions, if not billions had seen Cybertron appear in the skies above Earth. Not to mention seen the footage of Decepticons ravaging Chicago. It would have been 9/11 on a cosmic scale, and the fact that Sentinel Prime was an Autobot leader, and that the Autobots had faked their deaths and allowed the attack to happen just to teach humanity a "lesson" would have been made them seem no better then the Decepticons to the average human.

Before AOE came out, Hasbro and Paramount created a website called Transformers are Dangerous that showed the mindset of Humans in the post DOTM world. Check the sight out here, particularly the video that shows a recording of the last publicly known message Optimus sent to the Autobots when the human betrayal became known:

Transformers are Dangerous | Spread The Word | Join The Fight

Yes, but they're talking about the Decepticon attack craft shown in DOTM. Not the Ark or the interstellar starships that would have brought Soundwave's Decepticons to the Moon during the 60's. Those would have been out of KSI or any other country's reach on the Moon. At least until Lockdown arrived. And since his priority was capturing Optimus Prime for the Creators, I doubt he would have wasted time over them. Especially just for the humans.

I covered that above. It's stated clearly in DOTM that humanity believed that the Xantium was the Autobot's only spacecraft. That simply can't be, because otherwise, how did Prime's team, and later Hound's group, get to Earth? And if, as I believe, the Autobot's were betrayed shortly after DOTM, it seems unlikely Hound would have trusted their ship to humans.

Oh, don't misunderstand me. I'm sure most if not all of the previous movie Autobots and Decepticons not shown in AOE are dead and recycled for parts by KSI. And I'm sure that at first, all the Autobots held back fighting the Humans. And I'm sure it cost them dearly. But everyone has a breaking point. By AOE, Prime swears to "kill them all." How much sooner would someone like Sideswipe or the Wreckers have snapped at their human tormentors?

That's where Lockdown came in I imagine. When the Autobot started fighting back in earnest, KSI and Cemetery Wind was open to any help they could get. Even from another Transformer. My point is not that I doubt the deaths of the missing Autobots -- though it's kept vague, just in case they change their mind -- but that I don't accept the idea that "the Autobots are stranded on Earth" as anything more then shoddy writing and poor attention to continuity.

 

Here I'm going to find some middle ground, and you do make plenty of good points, so this is definitely a good discussion. I think ties between the Autobots and humans were likely cut shortly after DOTM, but what's not certain is how soon after DOTM they were truly betrayed. If Hound and company arrived after NEST was disbanded but before Lockdown and his human allies started hunting them, then they still may not have been overly cautious or protective over their space-faring vessels they came in on. Also, even though Prime may have been Lockdown's primary target, he was also out to get the other Transformers on Earth as well.

"Autobots, Decepticons, like little children, always fighting, making a mess out of the universe. Then I've got to clean it up."

"The Creators want to wipe their chess board clean."

He was personally hunting down both factions for the Creators alongside Cemetery Wind. Now what we don't know is how long he was hunting with them, but I suspect it was at least a good majority of the pursuits. Lockdown probably joined most if not all of the hunts, as any hunt could potentially lead to information on Prime's whereabouts. Besides, he was simply doing his employer's bidding. He'd probably have no problem scouring an Autobot vessel.

Also, even with the Ark on the Moon, I'm not sure that any of the Autobots would have been able to travel there without the Xantium or the hypothetical ship the AOE Autobots arrived on. So yeah, I was certainly referring to the Decepticon ships in Chicago. I agree that the Xantium was the only ship the Autobots had on Earth during DOTM.

Having said those things, I think there are several possibilities as to why the Autobots were stranded in AOE.

1. The AOE Bots arrived in a spaceship on Earth after DOTM but before the betrayal, hence Cemetery Wind and Lockdown were able to secure the ship the Bots rode in on before they knew about Cemetery Wind and Lockdown being on Earth. That way KSI got some more Transformium, and the Autobots had their ship taken.

2. The AOE Bots came in on a ship or ships that crash landed when they arrived on Earth, and their craft was damaged or destroyed beyond repair, thus being stranded on Earth.

3. The AOE Bots came with the second wave of Autobots on the Xantium, BUT they were not partners with NEST in any way, hence they were not exiled in DOTM and were not near the Chicago battle. It's certainly possible that there were Autobots present on Earth who were not allied with any humans or active in the ROTF /DOTM battles. Only when Lockdown and Cemetery Wind started hunting all Transformers did they come into the fold.

I admit the numbered points above are speculative, but I think any one of them is possible. Regardless of what one thinks about the attention to continuity, the movie is clear enough that they were stranded on Earth, and it's highly highly implied the other Autobots are dead. What's not certain is if there any more Decepticons on Earth, as Attinger may have said "fewer than a dozen Decpeticons were on the run" to cover up the fact they were hunting Autobots, although I seriously doubt he was only talking about the remaining Autobots, and I doubt all of the Cons on Earth were destroyed. But that's a discussion for another thread and time.

 

i cant awnser for Hound and the others, but for Prime's team i can awnser if we take the IDW comics as canon, in the comics its shown that Bee and Prime's team came to earth after being launched from their second Ark ship, (before u say anything, that second Ark was destroyed by Thundercracker sometime before the ROTF guys came to earth)

 

if we take the comics/novels as canon, yeah there were other Autobots on earth during the events of ROTF, Knock Out, Salvage, Longarm, Dune Runner, Breakaway, Armorhide, Beachbreak, Blazemaster, Brawn and Smokescreen, however they all died before the events of DOTM even took place

 

Agreed! Nice, rational discussion of the movies. Very enjoyable so far!

I agree that we don't have an exact timeline, so your guess is as good as mine as to when relations between the Autobots and humanity fell apart completely. But we never see any US or UN official in DOTM reinstate relations between them and the Autobots. The military agree to work with them out of convenience, but once the battle was over all bets were off what would happen next.

But you could be right, and depending on the timing of Hound's arrival -- again, we don't know for sure when and he and the others got there -- it's possible that their guard was down at exactly the wrong time. It has also occurred to me that Drift, a former Decepticon -- could have been one of Soundwave's troops before changing sides during or just after DOTM.

Excellent point. Agreed. Though Lockdown seemed in a hurry to leave once he had Optimus captive.

It depends on how much the government knew about Lockdown's presence. My impression was that just like hunting the Autobots as well as the Decepticons, Lockdown was KSI and Cemetery Wind's OTHER dirty little secret. That they'd never have wanted the folks in Washington to know they were working with another Transformer, hence Lockdown needing to keep a low profile, and rely on his human allies up until AOE.

But I suppose that if Lockdown thought it was in his interest and helped his pursuit of Optimus, he might have cut off any potential escape routes for the Autobots. Which brings it back to being a timeline issue.

This is the toughest part of the whole "the Transformers need spaceships" retro-con. In the first 2 films, both the Autobots and Decepticons are shown landing on Earth in what is refereed to as "reentry modes." These were originally meant to be actual spacecraft modes, as toys like first movie preview Optimus and Starscream and various ROTF Ravages showed. But now?

They're clearly no longer supposed to be capable of flying interstellar distances, but are still shown to be able to fly from orbit down to Earth. No two ways about that. So I don't think a flight from Earth to the Moon under their own power is out of the question. But this is just speculation based on observation of what is shown in the films, I admit.

Both possible. But something that really SHOULD have been stated in AOE if that was the case. It's not like it would have taken that much extra dialog to explain. Even if you had to lose some other bit of exposition. Like Shane creepily explaining to Cade that having sex with his teenage daughter wasn't technically statutory rape.

This is, I think, the most likely answer, if any. If only because I assume that the writers only knew about the Xantium, and assumed ALL the Autobots came in it. It ignores other facts, but as is pointed out elsewhere, it at least lines up with the IDW movie comics and tie-in novels, that show other Autobots and Decepticons from the toy line, not shown in the movies, on Earth.

Agreed. And I do think any other potential Autobot or Decepticon survivors is kept vague on purpose. Just a safety net if they want to bring any new characters in or old characters back in future movies. But as you say, that's a discussion for another thread and time.

 

I worded that poorly, I apologize. What I meant was, with a new director comes the very real possibility of a complete reboot. A new director may choose to scrap Bay's vision of Transformers movie verse in favor of his own vision.

Outside of the affirmation that there will be a Transformers5, there has not been any other Official news about the next movie. There has been no announcement or confirmation on who is directing T5. If they're still looking for a director, then there's probably no story written right now. We have no idea if T5 will be a continuation of T4, or a complete reboot. Either way, unless they're brought up or appear onscreen, we may never know for certain what happened to the other Bots. Personally, I'm okay with that. If we get a complete reboot, then their previous fates wouldn't matter anyway because all Bots and Cons could potentially be brought back (whether they were killed or disappeared in Bayverse). My guess is that we probably won't hear any Official Transformers5 movie news until this summer, at the earliest.

 

And I pretty much agree 100 % with everything you say here. I brought up my third possibility because that's actually what I find most likely as well, but we simply don't know for sure; I like to look at all possibilities. And Lockdown did seem like he was in a hurry once he captured Prime, but by that point the humans claimed they didn't need to be worried about and had their own Transformers that they controlled (or so they thought) that could be used against the Pathetic Dirty Foursome or any remaining Decepticons.

EDIT: Before I go to bed, based on the film I agree only Attinger's Cemetery Wind and Joyce knew about Lockdown. He was definitely a dirty little secret.

 

i dont know if i am mis-reading or what, but in case i am reading it correctly

1. If you mean that Ehren Kruger thinks the ship from DOTM is the only ship in the tf mythology, no he's an expert on the Transformers universe, he knows about every other ship out there in the tf stories (him being an expert in the tf lore is why hasbro/paramount have kept him for the sequels)

2. if you mean the writter of this film thinks the Xantium is what brought all Autobots to earth, the one who wrote this film (Ehren Kruger) is the one who wrote DOTM, the same one that says that the ship brought the ROTF cast of characters. so he knows the TF1 Autobots came before the Xantium landed to earth.

New Vision, yes. complete reboot, unlikely. the reboot would only happen if Hasbro/Paramount wants one, not because the director wants to start fresh. bay said that AOE designed to set up future "sequels" so that another director could take over and continue from there, so the plan they have is continue from where AOE left off. keep in mind there have been other sequels out there that were directed by another guy, but in no way they were reboots.

Jaws 2, Pirates 4, Toy Story 3, Jurassic Park 3, Iron Man 3, Thor 2, Captain America 2, X-Men 3, and few others. all directed by diff directors but still sequels that continued the previous films.

 

I would like Ironhide and Sideswipe to comeback somehow since Megatron is always coming back