The Great Transformers Japanese Collection Debate: Shout Factory vs Madman

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by GoldbugTM2, Aug 12, 2013.

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  1. GoldbugTM2

    GoldbugTM2 Right Hand Of Primus

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    Several years ago, I went through the trouble/expense to import the Madman release complete collection R4 DVD boxset of the Japanese G1 shows. A couple years later, Shout Factory announced they would finally bring us a R1 release of these shows. Today, I finally received Shout Factory's complete collection boxset in the mail--complete with the lithograph. (Mine is cardboard, I though lithographs were supposed to be metal. Did I get jipped or did everyone else get a cardboard lithograph?)

    There are, in fact, some big differences between these two sets, outside the whole PAL/NTSC thing. As such, I am quite happy to own both sets. So let's dive in and compare these two releases:

    The Packaging
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Madman (left) Shout Factory (right)

    The madman set as you can see is a larger box, and is plastered with a bit more IDW artwork. While the 3 different DVD cases, (one for each series), are larger in the Madman version, the way the DVDs are set in the cases are actually essentially the same. Both sets span 13 discs, 4 for Headmasters & Victory, and 5 for Masterforce. A key difference, however is that the Madman set includes not only the Zone OVA, but also the manga continuation amongst the DVD-ROM features. More on that when we talk about the DVD features.

    Another bonus that comes in the Madman set is that each series set includes a 10-15 page booklet containing episode guides, somewhat detailed info on the series, and a list of names noting the Japanese names vs the North American names. They didn't bother doing a name list for Victory, because by that point there weren't really any North American counterparts.

    Bonus Features
    I've seen people comment that they're a bit disappointed in the lack of special features in the Shout Factory release. Basically Shout Factory only provided art galleries, and no Zone content whatsoever. The Madman set does indeed have all the Zone stuff as well as the horrendous StarTV English dubs, if you're a completist and/or have the desire to torture yourself. Also included on the Madman sets are: Art galleries, toy images, Japanese toy comercials, and Headmasters has a "Making the Cover gallery" featurette.

    Audio/Video/Subtitle Quality
    NOTE: I'm only comparing the first episode of Headmasters for this bit, which is obviously not the best sample size. I will add more comments later as I watch/compare more episodes.

    The madman DVD set has two subtitle options, one based on the Japanese names, and one based on the North American names. Madman's North American subtitles are still a bit flawed. Not all North American names are used correctly, (though most are), and they maintain the Japanese style syntax. The Shout Factory set only has the original Japanese audio & a single subtitle option which uses the North American names. Since the Shout Factory subs were verified by Hasbro directly, the naming is MUCH more accurate, and the syntax matches what we're used to in G1 Transformers a lot better. (example: in the Madman sets Grimlock is subtitled as saying stuff like I'm Grimlock blah blah blah, while Shout Factory's subs retain the traditional "ME GRIMLOCK SMASH" wording.) It should be noted that the further you go into these shows, the more Japanese exclusive characters you will come across, and thus have no North American counterpart names to use. To be fair, I did notice some elementary grammar errors in the Shout Factory subtitles, but unless you really want to nitpick, it's not that hard to look past them.

    The audio/video quality itself? First I need to be clear about how I'm watching these DVDs. I have a 24" 16:10 ratio 1080p HDTV LCD with HDMI connections. The Shout Factory DVDs I watch on my player of choice--my PS3. Despite the fact that the concept of PAL vs NTSC does not apply to LCD screens using HDMI, (it only applies to analog display/playback), my PS3 refuses to play the Madman DVDs. Fortunately, my Xbox 360 has no such qualms and plays them just fine.

    I have always thought that the Madman DVDs, as well as the fansubbed videos that have been floating around the interwebs for years, have had quite less than spectacular audio/video quality. This is one thing I was hopeful for with the Shout Factory release. Obviously HD bluray quality we're not going to get, but although it's not exactly a night & day difference, for me the audio/video quality of the Shout Factory DVDs is MUCH better. I did notice a little muffled sound at the beginning of the episode I compared, but overall I much preferred the visuals of the Shout Factory DVDs.

    Verdict
    Since I'm only comparing one episode, it's obviously unfair to call this a final verdict, and I'm sure I'll revisit this. I mentioned earlier in this post that I was happy to own both these sets. The Madman sets allow me to have all the bonus features, as well as the Zone material, while the Shout Factory DVDs allow me to watch the shows with better picture quality and (slightly) more authentic G1 experience in watching the shows. I am well aware that the further you get into this collection the less and less it has in common with the G1 series. As such, I expect to go back and forth between the two sets while I'm watching these shows. I fully intend to watch all of Headmasters via the Shout Factory DVDs, but by the time I get to Victory I will probably be relying on the Madman set. Despite the fact that I generally go with dubs whenever possible, I am not going anywhere near the English dub option on the Madman set. ;)  So yeah, it's really not a bad idea to have BOTH on hand if you can afford it.

    Those of you who have one or both of these, feel free to chime in with your thoughts!

    P.S.: Beyond Transformers Zone

    We all know that these shows continued Transformers in Japan after G1 ended in North America, but the story doesn't end with Transformers: Zone either.

    In 1990 Zone was released and due to declining ratings, it didn't become the full series it was intended to be. After this, there was a void left in the world of transforming robots. To fill this void, Takara teamed up with renowned mecha anime studio Sunrise, (known for all the Gundam shows, among a TON of other things), to start a brand new franchise of transforming robots. This would come to be known as the Yuusha ("Brave") Series, the first of which was Brave Exkaiser, which released in 1990 shortly after Zone. Many of the mecha designs for Brave Exkaiser were actually left over Transformers material that was repurposed for the Yuusha series, not unlike what Hasbro did with several different toylines when they created the Transformers. The Yuusha series would continue with 8 relatively yearly incarnations, including a spinoff that was released in the US with an English dub, and aired on TechTV/G4: Betterman. The last full series, GaoGaiGar was released in the US as well, although only the first half of it was English dubbed, the remainder was subbed only. In 2000, and again in 2005 there were two additional GaoGaiGar OVA series. Much of the other Yuusha shows remain unfansubbed and unreleased in the US.

    But wait, there's more!

    A year later, in 1991, another toy company had the same idea. Tomy, who would later merge with Takara in 2006, struck a very similar partnership with Sunrise to create a very similar transforming robot franchise. This would be known as the Eldran series, named after a character that appears in every show and bestows transforming robots upon elementary school children. This is the key difference between Yuusha and Eldran. Yuusha features robots together with the age of kids/teens you're used to seeing in Transformers shows, while Eldran aims slightly younger. The first Eldran series was called Matchless Raijin-Oh, and originally aired in mid 1991. A new anime distribution company called Anime Midstream has just begun releasing this series in North America with a full English dub. Currently they have released the first 25 episodes of the show on 5 DVD volumes, with every intention of releasing the rest of the series in the near future. There would be two other Eldran shows through 1994, with one last show being truncated to an OVA pilot & manga in much the same way Zone ended up.

    Now that we've finally gotten all the Japanese Transformers shows, it's time to ramp up demand for these other two lost "Transformers" franchises! :cool: 
     
  2. Silvershot

    Silvershot On The Double Dutch Bus

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    Not quite. PAL vs NTSC does not apply to HD Video. It does apply to Standard Def video and all DVDs since they are standard def. Whether the signal is transmitted analog or digital is irrelevant, it's still either 25fps Pal or 29.97fps NTSC. Your PS3 will transmit HD, PAL, or NTSC over the HDMI Cables depending on the video source. PAL payback is not enabled on the PS3, but luckily it is on your XBOX.
     
  3. Backpack

    Backpack G1 forever.

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    I've got the UK release of Headmasters, Madman's Masterforce and 2 copies of Victory (don't ask). Then I've got Shout!'s complete set.

    Yes, Shout!'s is the much better set when it comes to quality.

    I imported the other sets about a year before Shout! announced theirs.... because I waited so long for a R1 release I was afraid it would never happen. This is also why I fear buying Beast Wars 2 and Neo.
     
  4. GoldbugTM2

    GoldbugTM2 Right Hand Of Primus

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    My PAL set is the Aussie one, not UK. Manga handles UK releases right?
     
  5. Backpack

    Backpack G1 forever.

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    From what I remember there were two different companies that released the Japanese shows in the UK. I think my Headmasters set is from Manga.... it was out before the Madman releases and was region free. The other 2 series however were region locked.... so that's how I ended up with the Madman sets (also region free). However all being PAL, the frame rate was so screwed up it makes them all hard to watch.

    It's kind of strange, because I have PAL DVDs for Spiderman and His Amazing Friends, Inhumanoids, Robotix, etc...... and thier frame rates seem fine. Guess it has more to do with the Japanese shows being transfered to PAL poorly.
     
  6. AirjitzuRonin

    AirjitzuRonin Member of the Bee Team

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    I know this is a hefty request but can someone list all the name comparisons from the original Japanese series to the subtitled Shout Factory version.
     
  7. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Madman wins in the packaging department, that's for dang sure.

    PAL needs to burn and die, though. I can't believe it still exists. Aren't you UK people sick and tired of watching and playing everything in a lower framerate?


    NTSC 4 LIFE
     
  8. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking The world has moved on...we've always said.

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    Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the Brave Series released on DVD. The animation was good for its time, even if the earlier stuff skews a bit toward the younger audience. Subs are up on Netflix of some of it.
     
  9. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Lithography refers to the printing process, not the material being printed on. Cardboard or paper lithograph prints are common.

    Either the framerates aren't actually fine, or the video on the discs isn't actually PAL. I can't speak to the releases you've got, but I've heard that NTSC-on-R4 DVDs do exist. Apart from those, the 24 fps source has to be forced into 25 frames of video some way, somehow.

    I've seen three ways of adapting 24 FPS film (which includes almost all pre-2000 2D animation) to the PAL video format:

    1. Speed up the entire video to 25 FPS. This provides a clean picture, and arguably improves the smoothness of the animation. However, it does not play at the original running time, some scenes may seem unnaturally fast, and the sound (including everyone's voices) is one octave higher than recorded, creating a slight "chipmunk" effect.
    2. Interlacing every 12th frame of the video. This keeps the picture speed on track without altering the audio or running time, but introduces judder and intermittent interlacing artifacts.
    3. Frame-blending every 12th frame. Same as above, but introduces "ghosting" instead of interlacing.

    And then there are clusterfucks like the R4 release of The Tick, which are somehow sped up, frame blanded, and interlaced. :cry 

    That's not to say that North American practices are a lot better. Nearly every R1 release of TV animation is presented at 30 fps with pulldown interlacing instead of 24 fps. Attempting to reverse the interlacing and restore the original frame rates (either through software or through players and televisions that support it) can be hit-or-miss. We need to have all of this stuff rescanned for Blu-Ray.
     
  10. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    Yes! You speak the truth indeed!

    Ah, it would be wonderful if Toei would rescan all the Japanese g1 series. But I really doubt anyone cares enough (assuming the negatives still exist as well, which is also quite doubtful).
     
  11. walruslaw

    walruslaw video archivist

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    All the Japanese transformers G1 episodes could do with being rescanned as they are still using the same masters they made in the early 2000s. All the most recent DVD sets are duplicates of the original DVD sets with new company logos at the start of the disk. Granted these are still better than the masters provided to Shout! and Madman/Metrodome for their releases.

    Speaking of Bluray, there was a promo flier given out at the start of the re-releases that said Transformers and 2010 where getting blurays but 2 years later and still no HD goodness :( . Didn't have high hopes anyway as if the country that made the series doesn't have a good enough master to make the HD transfer i find it hard to believe the Japanese have one but id LOVE to be proven wrong.
     
  12. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Even if there are no good negatives available, the video masters could be professionally inverse-telecined to 24 fps progressive instead of leaving it to the automated guesswork of consumer appliances and free software. Groups like Shout Factory are often doing frame-by-frame video restoration anyway. In a world where the majority of TV sets now support 24fps directly, it's insane that this isn't a part of that process.
     
  13. NotRamjet97

    NotRamjet97 Well-Known Member

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    I had no idea about Eldran. I knew about Brave and watching it (I'd only really say Exkaiser and Figh Bird are close to Transformers with races of aliens "possessing" human vehicles (and forms, in the case of Figh Bird).

    Likewise, GaoGaiGar is probably the furthest from Transformers, as it mostly focuses on earth based robots (the titular robot, in fact, being a mecha suit) being made by humans, fighting off aliens taking over humans and becoming monsters (Zonders).

    Da Garn and Goldran are somewhere in the middle. The robots are sentient, they aren't man-made, but they're from earth.

    I do love how diverse Brave got (heck, they even tried a Power Rangers-esque show with Dagwon).

    *sigh* I do really enjoy some series of Brave. Gonna have to try and find Eldran.
     
  14. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    Wow, I didn't know about that promo. Interesting, but sad that nothing seems to be happening.
    It does seem unlikely that they still have any negatives, at this point. And even if they did, what reason would Toei have to pay for the expenses of re-scanning them? I doubt a bluray of these shows would be all that lucrative. It's not like releasing something like Dragon Ball Z on bluray. Especially in Japan, where not many people buy home media anyway.
    An unfortunate situation indeed.
     
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