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The Transformers - Soldiers or Super Heros?

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Old 05-30-2010, 03:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP View Post
It depends on the fiction and setting.

But for the most part, they're super-heroes to us, but soldiers to each other.
What he says. Animated (and in some cases the American G1 cartoon) make them out to be heroes/villains to everyone else. Beast Wars, and to a lesser extent the Unicron Trilogy bring out more of the military perspective.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:41 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by General Magnus View Post
This argument came from the movie forum in wich people differ on how to view the nature of the Transformers conflct. There are claims they are more like a superhero team, while others say they are fighting a civil war. So what is the nature of the conflict? A Civil War or a battle between Heros and Villains?
Soldiers fighting a war.
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Old 05-30-2010, 07:52 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Blitz. View Post
its all about the context on cybertron they are the norm so their soldiers on earth their something special and their acts make them into what could be seen as super heroes.
I agree with the matter of perspective, isn't that part of the necessity of the 'human element'? to not only develop scale in a physical sense, but bring scale to their actions/ abilities also?


On a different point, one I honestly couldn't be bothered adequately verifying; Wasn't the first live action Transformers movie eventually sold to the studios on the basis that it was part of the then popular Superhero genre? I know there were some Disaster Film comparisons too, and it could be argued that it borrowed a few elements from that genre also.

SMOG: I've never really found definitions of Superheroes to be consistent, some are too specific for labeled and established Superheroes to adhere, and some are loose enough to shove anyone powerful with a nice set of morals into, (or just anyone wearing a costume).

Then again, if you're not registered... you're not a real super hero.
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Old 05-30-2010, 09:37 PM   #54
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On Deadend comments on the Autobots.

You got it mixed up. The Decepticons are the subversives.

Decepticon (di-sep-ti-con ) A member of a subversive sect or society. From the noun 'decepticon'; one who deceives.

In G1 cartoon the Autobots and Decepticons are descended from the two Quintesson product lines. Civilian and military hardware. Just so happens they revolted. They weren't united to begin with but the Autobots tend to dominate politics. In comics the Decepticons are movement founded by Megatron to overthrow the Autobot regime. This is embodied in Animated Megatron who views himself leader of righteous cause.
In G1 cartoon, quints only claimed creating the race, but did create the transorganics, and enslaved the autobots. Whether or not they really did create them is open to interpretation. The autobot rebellion which was the revolt against the quints was long before the decepticons were created as shown in season 3 time travel episodes.
The decepticon's were the military, as told in five faces of darkness, and war dawn, as well as small mentions of how megatron kept his soldiers in secret of omega supreme. Other S1-S2 eps with flashbacks can verify this. Including Skyfire which was before Starscream joined the decepticon militia, since skyfire doesn't even know what Decepticons are.

The Marvel comics I already admitted were a mess, and IDW was the simplest way to convey it, it's a little more complicated than a quick blurb can cover.

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In the Movie-verse the Decepticons are the traitors. First was the betrayal of the Fallen, second was the betrayal of Megatron wanting to build an army with the Allspark. Autobot is technically the name of their race, Autonomous Robotic organisms. Decepticons are a movement started by the Fallen.
In the movie-verse history has forgotten the fallen, only megatron's side knows of it. Prime only recently realized he was a prime too. He and megatron originally ran two sides of the planet, Megatron ran the military side, and Prime ran the civilian and science side. Megatron wanted the allspark for his own motives, declared them traitors when they chose not to fight for the planet, and it's also breifly stated in ROTF as well, that Prime is a traitor to his race since he won't save it from extinction. (Forest battle) The fallen is more like the shadow puppet master using the politics to enslave the race, but even so that makes the autobots to their law traitors, whether they are in the right or not.

The definitions of either side really mean nothing, it's all in the hands of how that universe used it with proof from their own fiction.

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Old 05-30-2010, 10:04 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Deadend View Post
In G1 cartoon, quints only claimed creating the race, but did create the transorganics, and enslaved the autobots.
Thats not entrilly accurate.

Yes the Quints claimed to have created the TF's....but it wasnt just "only" they that made the claim.

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The autobot rebellion which was the revolt against the quints was long before the decepticons were created as shown in season 3 time travel episodes.
That is incorrect.

5 faces of Darkness shows us , in flash back, that the Consumer line [Autobots] and the Military Hardware line [Decepticons] were constructed at the same time.

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In the movie-verse history has forgotten the fallen, only megatron's side knows of it. Prime only recently realized he was a prime too.
Thats not the exact impression I got.I got the impression that Prime was fully aware of their history and his ancestry....but he kept it a secret.
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Old 05-30-2010, 10:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Deadend View Post
In the movie-verse history has forgotten the fallen, only megatron's side knows of it. Prime only recently realized he was a prime too. He and megatron originally ran two sides of the planet, Megatron ran the military side, and Prime ran the civilian and science side. Megatron wanted the allspark for his own motives, declared them traitors when they chose not to fight for the planet, and it's also breifly stated in ROTF as well, that Prime is a traitor to his race since he won't save it from extinction. (Forest battle) The fallen is more like the shadow puppet master using the politics to enslave the race, but even so that makes the autobots to their law traitors, whether they are in the right or not.

The definitions of either side really mean nothing, it's all in the hands of how that universe used it with proof from their own fiction.

I don't consider the comics canon since when a new movie come it invalidates it. Jetfire was a Decepticon but didn't know about Optimus Prime. Autobots didn't know about the Fallen, this is explained as all their recorded history is on the Allspark. Meaning the previous civil war conflict was kept from the younger generation. Yet young Decepticons like Wheelie know all about the Seekers. The Fallen is called the first Decepticon because he is the one who started it and was the power behind the throne of Megatron.
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Old 05-30-2010, 10:52 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Madness View Post
On a different point, one I honestly couldn't be bothered adequately verifying; Wasn't the first live action Transformers movie eventually sold to the studios on the basis that it was part of the then popular Superhero genre? I know there were some Disaster Film comparisons too, and it could be argued that it borrowed a few elements from that genre also.
The word "superhero" might have been used to promote the idea, but I think the term "comic book" might be more accurate. Transformers is certainly a "comic book" genre, but I wouldn't equate that term with Superheroes, despite the fact that Superheroes are the most prominent examples of that medium.

Considering that "comic book" movies have become major event movies, and special effects vehicles of late, I can see why a live-action Transformers movie might have been pitched along those same lines.

But really... whatever the definition, I have a hard time aligning Transformers with the Superhero genre. In the few cases where the styles overlap, it still feels like more of an exception than the rule.

If you wanted to look to the Japanese Super Robot genre, you might be able to make a stronger case, though I might argue that Super Robots could even stand as a genre of their own.

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Old 05-31-2010, 12:53 AM   #58
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I certainly wouldn't consider Transformers as 'traditional' Superheroes, and don't wish for them to be labeled as such. I also don't want to have them relating to the 'Traditionals' in anything more than a few brief meetings in a couple of obscure Marvel alternate realities.

Likewise, I wouldn't want to catagorise them as 'traditional' toy soldiers/ military collectables, or call ROTF a war movie because some of the TFs depicted are considered soldiers set in a war.

My stance to the OP question is: Neither and both. I just thought I'd expand on it.

This thread really has no more risk of polluting the term "Superhero" than it has the likeliness of distorting the accepted definition of "soldier".
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:57 AM   #59
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I think they're soldiers, out of necessity. (Unless, of course, they start wearing capes--then, I think it's a safe bet they'd definately be superheroes. ^__^)
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:13 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by SMOG View Post
The word "superhero" might have been used to promote the idea
Michael Bay himself apparently sees Transformers as a superhero movie. So for BayFormers I guess they're superheroes not soldiers. Ironic really considering Bay's hard-on for the military.

Link of at least one example since someone will no doubt come and demand a source:

Michael Bay – This is my superhero movie – Preview reactions : TransformersFans.com
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