Fembots in TransFormers

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by cgibsonREX, Mar 19, 2010.

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  1. star_ling

    star_ling Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to keep my response as close to the point as possible because it would way to easy to get off subject and into questionable territory. So it will a little hard for me to explain somethings without doing so, bare with me.

    Okay here goes:

    Yes we would still have 2 genders, along with everything we had before but doesn't mean it would stay that way. Think about how many Patriarchal countries there are in the world that barely like dealing with women as it is. You don't think that if those places had the power to fully and without a doubt control the population gender they wouldn't do so? Especially if you think about the military applications of doing so, with no real reason to keep women around (excluding the obvious exceptions) why would they? Then you would have other countries who may adopt similar reasoning out of defense. I know that sounds very hypothetical and 'what if' ish but look at modern day China and you see how that could happen.

    Yes it takes "two to tango" but most people view raising children and child bearing as women's problems. Again all you would have to do is look at modern day social problems to see that thinking is in short supply. It's hard for me to go into the why I agree with male as "default" and female as "special" without getting into subjects we can't discuss here.

    Yes both genders would be useless but the more dominant one wouldn't see it that way. That goes back to what would happen if Patriarchal societies could control that aspect of their populace. Yes we would retain all of our physical indicators of gender, hormones and culture but thats it. In the end it wouldn't matter as soon as something happens where one gender would seem more important than the other. Like when a war is going on (Like in almost every TF series) it will all boil down to who would make the better soldier, who is bigger, tougher, more violent, etc. Historically speaking, as far as humans go, that usually isn't women. There are still groups who think certain races are useless and actually tried (and try) to do something about it, you don't think if that could be done with gender someone wouldn't try? Yeah off subject, I know. It may be liberating at first but it all go down hill quickly.

    Yes it is screwed up but that's how the world works. There's a lot more we could discuss that has more to do with gender relations and the nature of humanity and how those attitudes show up in media but this is not the time or place.
     
  2. Moonscream

    Moonscream YES, We Exist, and We DON'T Want to Date You

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    Its not sexist to make an observation, and question it. Heck, it happens repeatedly with regards to women in GD with some guys making some pretty ignorant comments, but there are few cries of 'sexism' there.

    --Moony
     
  3. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Well, of course it's always guys bringing it up... female fans already KNOW they exist. :) 

    As for being tired of the topic, if I complained about every subject on this forum that I'm "tired of", I would just be a 24-hour roving troll. If the topic is interesting, contribute. If it isn't, stick to other threads that you like. Pretty standard. No point in piping up just to say "Oh, you boys... you're so tiresome!" :rolleyes: 

    I think that female TF fans are still inarguably a significant minority. But then, that's not odd... the larger geekdom is only very gradually emerging out of the boys' club it's traditionally been. I don't think every girl fan is a fangirl, any more than I think every male fan is a fanboy. But there do seem to be certain traits that go along with both.

    Hey hey hey... let's play nice here. :) 

    I agree to some degree... Moony, your observations are not as innocent as you suggest... it's pushing some buttons, and Gog's point is well taken.

    Perhaps then, I should ask the question of why girls aren't more interested/concerned about how their sex has been marginalized, exoticized and turned into a token fantasy element in Transformers. For that matter, why don't girls care about the integrity of sci-fi? Why do they only seem to care about such things if there's some element of potential romance, or some sex symbol to fawn over? Why is girl-friendly sci-fi usually just Torchwood? Why is it always about David Tennant, and never about Tom Baker? ;) 

    I'm not being sexist... I'm just making a frank observation about what I notice to be the vast majority of womens' attitudes towards certain genres, just like you've made an observation about why ONLY men seem to care about whether Transformers should be non-gendered or not.

    I respect this point of view... but I also think that it's not the only valid point of view. If you ever wondered about where Prime's trailer goes, why not wonder about the life cycle of Transformers? Why not wonder why Fembots are often so badly designed and poorly thought out? I think there's room for using Transformers (granted, a kids' fantasy toy line) as a jumping-off point for exploring more serious sci-fi questions?

    I don't disagree, though I'm not sure how it bears on the current topic. Humans have many many generations of social conditioning and gender based thinking as baggage... and there is already a strong theme of male domination. If sex is removed from the equation, there would definitely be a big change, even if it took a long time to really sink in. You also have to ask... will that change the hormones that we have feeding into our brains? Will that remove "passion" from our list of ambitions. I think if you take away everything that is part of "sex" you are left with a very different human being, whether you started with a male or a female.

    Regardless, the "gift of life" is not a female-exclusive trait.

    I think those reasons are largely self-evident... my point is that, apart from the tendency to think certain ways due to our conditioning, a rational mind should be able to determine that this is, in fact, a fallacious approach to "gender". Male cannot be "default"... just as a non-gendered race cannot be "male".

    See, the problem is that you can't shake the human connection. You're keeping two sexes with all their hormones and biases intact, but then making them sterile. That's not really the same as a race that has no sexes, and never did, etc...

    You're basically presenting a scenario where, without babies, men become oppressors, because it's "in their nature"... which is kind of a dangerous assertion to make. Essentially, without women making babies, all culture would be thrown out the window, and our civilization would devolve into barbarism. I think that's both a bit melodramatic, and more a question of HUMAN nature. The strong will generally exploit and oppress the weak... whether they're men OR women. That's the real lesson of history, sadly. Gender is only one small part of it.

    But I think we're drifting here... how do you tie this back to the main topic?

    zmog
     
  4. star_ling

    star_ling Well-Known Member

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    I tried, and failed, to stay on topic and can't seem to remember what I was trying to say except that I focused too much on my analogy and the real life implications that might have on our society. I know a LOT of Sci Fi material, old and new, that hold the same belief that I do about this subject. To go into any of them would be seriously going off topic so I will make a few replies and get back on track. What I was really trying to say is that just because there is no physical reproduction needed between male and female TF's doesn't render the exsistance of one or the other moot. There are so many ways to try and approach this but in the end we end up with more questions than answers at times and it all ends up with fan speculation. Which of course I don't mind, but it gets annoying when so many fans will call you out on it just because they disagree. There are legitimate reasons for them to exsist no matter the continuity, it just seems no one is willing to make anything other than token attempts.

    You can have "passion" and love and what not with just one gender. It just shows the inherent dangers of trying to alter our natural capabilties for convience sake.

    As far as physical birth yes. It's that fact that you have a higher single mother to father ratio. Dad can dissapear after conception, mom is stuck for the next 9 months.

    Being "rational" can take on many shapes. What is rational to me can, and probably is, far different than what it is for you. So why that "default thinking" makes sense to me is dependant on that. Can't really get into the specifics, sorry. The reason we say that with TF's is their somewhat masculine appearance, voices, and attitudes to a certain degree, but we got into that in the other thread.

    It's not that I CAN'T it's that I got sidetracked and started focusing on us. You know like when you start talking about one thing and end up on the opposite end of the spectrum? I know there is a big difference but our lack of understanding their social structure leaves our using humans as a base for analogies like the one I used. After all they are Ridiculously Human Robots - Television Tropes & Idioms

    It is about human nature, but one that is more often than not perpetrated by men. Not really melodramatic to men as it is realistic and eventual. Again I apologize if that isn't too clear, but I really don't wanna stray too far.

    Also I would like to make a response to what you observe about female fans and Sci Fi but I wanna stay on topic.

    So yeah uh...do you think the War for Cybertron game will feature them at all? I wonder what they're stance on this subject is.
     
  5. GogDog

    GogDog Logic's wayward son Veteran

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    All good points, though probably beyond the scope of Transformers General Discussion, and more so, this thread.
     
  6. GogDog

    GogDog Logic's wayward son Veteran

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    No one is going to disagree with that, but you pulled the sexism card first, making a statement and then reporting a post when someone called you on it. If you feel there are sexist remarks that need to be dealt with, report it rather than start your own version of it.
     
  7. Lunar Archivist

    Lunar Archivist Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned elsewhere, I've always found that a variant of this explanation is totally adequate to explain things when it comes to the Quintesson origin: the "genders" are merely design artifacts from their origins as mass-market commercial products, the romantic feelings and feminine/masculine mindsets that exist between the two "sexes" leftover bits of programming that allowed the robots to interact appropriately with biological organisms with two genders as well as with each other. See? No mindscrews, no accusations of flawed perceptions on the part of gender-biased observers, no trannybots. :) 

    I mean, seriously: if mankind perished and a race of, I don't know, sentient Cabbage Patch Kids somehow arose from the ashes, you think that they wouldn't act like humans and behave according to their perceived genders in light of their origins even though there'd be absolutely no logical reason for them to do so?

    Well, women outnumber men. So if men ever did try something that stupid and each woman took out at least two guys, they would inevitably win. :D 

    For some reason, I'm reminded of John Byrne's post-Crisis on Infinite Earths revamp of Superman's origin, where the Kryptonians were presented as this near-emotionless race that, while they still had two genders, had totally abandoned sexual reproduction countless generations earlier in favor of combining genetic material from male and female donors in a "gestation matrix" to create new life. In this version, Superman's father, Jor-El, was seen as something of an eccentric in Kryptonian society since he actually fell in love with the biological mother of his offspring.
     
  8. Fe 26

    Fe 26 Well-Known Member

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    Because i wasn't here for the older thread, i will add my two cents to this thread

    Real Reason: Transformers like a lot of scifi fiction is just an avatar for modern people on adventures. They are putting a new look and feel on adventure stories. And just like Gi Joe has couple female joes, Transformers will have a few female transformers.

    The writers want to make cool fiction and they will do it for whatever universe/company pays them to do it.


    Dork reason:

    One, I have not seen this addressed yet, but do any of you even know WHY we reproduce the way we do? Why we have two sexes? It is believed that we do so because by mixing and matching our DNA we make our species more diverse. And through this diversity we increase our species chances of survival. If the species is threaten there is a multitude of possibility ways in each species to deal with the problem. Those that do not have traits that can withstand the threat die, those that do, live.

    Knowing this simple fact, it is not hard to accept that at one point or another, "gender" was introduced into "transformers" to create a greater diversity and a greater ability to survive.

    Two, gender and sex are not the same thing. A person can be feminine and not be female. Maybe transformers have a spectrum between "male" and 'female" and "fembots" are just transformers that were built on the female end of the spectrum? What would be the point of that? Going back to point one, to create diversity, and in doing so, strength.

    Three, the writers of any and all transformers cartoons are never going to address this paradox. Because when you come down to it, either A) transformers have male and female sexual organs and can have sex or B) only have gender, which could lead to pro trans, gay, whatever story relationships. No one is going to touch any of that in a kids cartoon in the US



    This is such an odd thing to have a thread about over and over again. Gender of robots bothers you, but the fact that an isolated planet of robots can figure out how to move their limbs to form VEHICLES from other PLANETS that they have NEVER been to, doesn't? Seriously, in the cartoon some of the first recorded transformations were motorcycles and space tanks. How does that just come to someone. "man I'm tired of being shot at, I think I will put my hand up my leg and shift my oddly round tire like shoulder down here, uhm, uh, ggrrrr, got it, just invented the motor bike"
     
  9. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

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    But it does, definitionally. Reproduction without conjugation of any sort does render the very idea of gender totally moot. It would not exist in a hermaphroditic (unless cyclically so) or asexual species.

    The basic idea being, all the Transformers we keep perceiving as male are no more male than my toaster. They don't have genes, they don't shoot their "CNA" (ugh) at anyone to create a new Transformer, they don't do anything that defines a male in a strictly biological sense.

    That isn't to say fictional machines can't have that though. In the film *batteries not included, one of the little spaceship/von Neumann machines seemed to "couple" with the other (exchanging blueprints?), then gathered materials so the other one could build new machines inside of itself. That functionally makes the one that built the little ones essentially female, and the other male.

    Transformers don't do that, so...no genders, just what humans perceive them as.

    - Coeloptera
     
  10. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Yeah, I think we got a little lost there. My point is simply that removing reproduction from the equation doesn't "invalidate" women. It simply means that sexual genders don't exist. Now, one could argue that Fembots are simply a different type of Transformer... and I think that's fine. But that's not a sexual gender, and that makes Arcee no more "female" to Springer's "male", than it would Laserbeak, or Whirl, or any of the other irregular-type TFs.

    Removing sexual reproduction from Humans is a different story, with way more factors to consider. Males and Females will still have the legacy of being different genders, and it's unlikely they will quickly outgrow that. Also, if humans lose the ability to reproduce sexually, do they still get the same hormones in their early development (and thereafter) that they normally would? After all, a lot of the behaviour we take for granted in both genders is actually just a factor of the various chemicals our glands shoot into our brains, and most of that is to sustain the gender roles that favour sexual reproduction.

    Not that behaviour is totally controlled by our hormones and such. We also possess a certain amount of autonomy and reasoning capacity... which is why I don't necessarily believe all men would become genocidal sociopathic slavemasters as soon as both genders were no longer necessary to carry on the species.

    Well, "legitimate reasons" is subjective. I might argue that there are also many "legitimate reasons" for them NOT to exist... at least not as a gender per se, though it's hard to argue that they DO exist within the canon, one way or another.

    Whether they should have been added to the canon, or depicted the way that they were, is a whole other aspect of the discourse. I can't argue about whether it's "canon" or not... but I can argue with whether it's worth keeping.

    Well, I think prison life proves to some degree that love and passion can exist with just one gender. ;) 

    But "love bonds", even without any reproductive component, can certainly still function within a genderless species... though I'm not sure I would consider that an "inherent danger". I mean, what's the danger?

    Yes, but that means that "dad" can run off and father a dozen more children for every month that woman is pregnant. So who's really the bigger "giver of life"? ;) 

    Indeed, that's even how nature made us. It's only our civilization, our aspirations to ideals such as monogamy, that makes us pair bond as we do... our biological programming on the other hand, tells men to make as many babies as we can. And humans are polyestrous, so it's not like there's a rutting season. No wonder our population is out of control.

    Considering that TFs live for many many thousands of years, it's probably for the best that they DON'T have gender based reproduction and behaviours like our own... the whole universe would be overrun in no time! :D 

    Exactly. We know that Transformers, as fictional characters made by humans, were based on gender types... but that doesn't mean it's not interesting to challenge that superficial notion, and explore the fact that, despite appearances, they really are NOT male...

    Maybe it speaks to my own aesthetic regarding science-fiction, but I like stuff that shifts your perspective, and challenges your customary ways of thinking to a degree. That's why District 9 is WAAAAAY better sci-fi than Avatar, and that "Prawns" are much more fascinating than those damn "Na'Vi".

    I know what you mean... and it's an interesting tangent to follow, though difficult under the circumstances. Plus, we got to talking about humans and gender, which confuses the fact that "humans" and "gender" are two things that could be considered inadmissable in a discussion of Transformers.

    Frankly, I think I can challenge any case made in favour of Fembots but one... the basic "it's just a space fantasy... nothing has to make sense" argument. But that's more a matter of personal preference/taste than anything.

    Well, my PM box is open. :) 

    That's actually a very good question, since WFC is pretty much rebuilding canon from the ground up. What they decide might shape the mainstream canon for some time to come.

    I'd be much more accepting of this proposal, if it weren't for the fact that I HATE the Quintessons, their origin, and the whole "consumer goods" explanation of Transformers deeply. I reject it flatly. Though I do agree that, allowing it, it does permit a reasonable explanation of the illusory "genders" TF's seem to have.

    No... actually, I don't think they would at all. They wouldn't have the parts, or the hormones, nor a real understanding of the history of their predecessors. They would probably get it all wrong, and then twist it into their own version, and then evolve something completely new and alien to us.

    And that's assuming they even start with a the idea of "gender" as a foundation. If they have no gender right from the beginning, and no pre-existing culture of gender, then there's no chance it would end up looking like our own idealized notions of male and female.

    Yeah, I remember that. I liked that Krypton... too bad they retconned it all. It was kind of interesting.

    Yes, though vicarious empowerment fantasies are always the worst kind of fanfics, wouldn't you agree? :) 

    This assumes that the only other alternative is a race of clones with identical traits, and no other means for differentiation or specialization... not to mention the possibilities for adaptive abilities after "birth". Since we are dealing with a race of alien machines, there's really no reason we should hold Transformers to those same limitations.

    I disagree, for the reasons above. But this idea is dangerously close to Jhiaxus/Furman's method of introducing Arcee in IDW... and could fall into the same pitfalls. It assumes that Transformers are already "male"... and that any new "gender" would then of course be female (and conform to a very rigid, artificial standard of "femininity", despite having nothing even closely resembling human reproductive biology).

    This is true, though both in terms of their depiction in the Transformers fiction, and in the interests of keeping it simple for this discussion, "sex" and "gender" may be treated as the same thing.

    Sex is a biological dimorphism relevant to sexual reproduction. Gender is a psychological and sociological construct among humans on planet Earth, based on evolved behaviours stemming from the sexes. So neither concept really needs to have anything to do with Transformers... at least in such recognizable Earth-bound ways.

    I think that might be premature. Change is coming, and maybe for the better. But for now, certainly a big player like Hasbro is not going to take any chances like that.

    However, I think that it wouldn't be so taboo to address the idea in a TF series that gender doesn't exist at all.. .that there are no such thing as "boy" and "girl" Transformers. I mean, in it's way, that's maybe even LESS provocative than having gendered Transformers, since that just plants MORE questions in those young minds.

    I mean, I could handle strange ideas like that as a kid. Kids in general reflect on this kind of stuff a lot more than we give them credit for, and honestly, I think this trend of pointedly avoiding any semblance of thought-provoking content in children's media is only encouraging us to get stupider.

    Well, don't think I haven't given it any thought. :) 

    I've always taken issue with the idea of Transformers on Cyberton being "vehicles" per se. Human sized cockpits? Ridiculous. But... in a species that can redesign themselves, and modify their bodies, the idea of shape-shifting is not so weird. Think... if humans had the ability to transform their arms into wings and fly around, don't you think we'd have gotten pretty good at doing that by now? Or if we could transform our arms into weapons? I think that would have been put to use many times throughout history (arguably, opposable thumbs, the ability to throw rocks and spears, and the evolution of martial arts, might even qualify).

    Look at it this way... where humans evolved tool-use and tool-fashioning, even to the most abstract levels seen today, Transformers, due to their different biologies, evolved the ability to refashion themselves into tools. Not so hard to accept when you think of it.

    Yes, thank you. Nice *batteries not included reference too. :) 

    Hey look... the gang's all here! :lol 

    It IS kind of funny that we're all coming over here, when there's already an older thread that deals with the same subject, when you think about it.

    zmog
     
  11. Fe 26

    Fe 26 Well-Known Member

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    I fail to see how your arguments actually counter what I said. Yeah, they can adapt after birth, that doesn't disprove that they might have built in diversity. That is kind of the whole point of the show. Heck, technically they should also be able to change their gender. At least by the Tv shows standards. Everyone's always changing their bodies or getting reprogrammed.


    Maybe someone has already said this, but there is a pretty good chance that Transformers interacted with other planets very early on. They are super advanced robots, they would have probably figured out space flight pretty quickly. It would also explain why when they transformed, they transformed into vehicles from other planets.

    There is a very good chance that in the early days the transformers saw the benefits of gender in other species and adapted them. Heck, maybe they went to a planet that didn't have technology yet and they scanned people, and had it forced into them?

    Or what if the term Fembot is just a description of a certain type of transformer and is called thus because it is easier for the aliens (us) to understand? Maybe it is a term for our benefit?


    Or what if is the classic answer, "because god said so." Primus just wanted it that way =P. In the comic storyline, the transformers are made by a God. Maybe Fembots exist for a spiritual reason that has nothing to do with technology? What if it relates to sparks?



    People are bringing biology into this discussion, when I think ultimately it has nothing to do with the argument. In the Tv series, fembots exist because the Quintessons, being naughty people, knew that female looks would sell to a certain market (nurses, barmaids). And in the comics you have a robots made by A GOD, that willed his own mechanical body out of a planet. And each transformer has a "spark" that is a part of him.


    Something people need to be asking instead is HOW does something like the Matrix contain knowledge and transformer leader sparks? How does such such a thing unleash itself to 1. blow up a big evil robot and 2. kill an evil hate plaque? How does Vector Sigma give transformer's sparks? What is Primus? How does he do what he does?


    I don't really think Fembots are a problem. I think the problem is people mixing the comic and TV show. They want a tech answers to why there exist genders in a comic where the characters at hand are given life by a God.
     
  12. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    It's not necessarily countering what you said... just pointing out that a binary system of sexual reproduction is not a precondition for a species' versatility or diversification. That's just how WE do it... but that doesn't even speak for all life forms on Earth, so there's no reason it should apply to space robots either.

    It's been brought up as a possibility, though in some canons, Earth is depicted as being TF's first real contact with organic sentients. But to be clear, are you suggesting that they might not have transformed at all before encountering other races and deciding to masquerade as their vehicles?

    I find it an awkward explanation, that they went to an organic planet, saw sexual dimorphism, and said "Hey, we should have that... just because!" and so they did. I think after long-term exposure to an alien species, some of the more experimental and easily influenced TFs might have been intrigued by the idea of "gender", and decided that they identify as "male" or "female", though having that extend to their physical internal workings seems dubious.

    The scanning thing... well, let's just say that I'm oldschool, and I have always preferred the idea that TF's actually have to be physically rebuilt in order to take on new forms, rather than the lame animation shortcut/plot device of "scanning" and then magically spontaneously rearranging their molecules by some kind of nanotech double-talk gimmick into a their new form. :) 

    "Fembot" was originally only a fandom term anyway, wasn't it? But yeah... this explanation is the one I am closest to embracing. So-called Fembots might superficially resemble a certain Earth female ideal, but they are really just a different "type" of Transformer... not a "gender" at all. So yeah.

    Well, technically, in the comics, Arcee was basically just a protocol droid made to look like a girl, right? Did Primus actually categorically "create" fembots?

    But yeah, that explanation works, though not necessarily in a particularly insightful or satisfying way.

    The Quintesson origin still "works" to a degree. The Primus origin doesn't really explain barbie-bots at all... though I guess divine inscrutability could always be invoked (though I feel it's a bit of a cop-out). ;) 

    The truth of the matter is that by now, most fans have their own fan-canon for all this stuff anyway. I think any one TF canon would be hard pressed to introduce a new explanation for these things, and make it stick. Transformers has been inconsistent for so long, and we fans have been filling in the blanks ourselves for so long, that in many ways "canon" has long since passed out of the hands of any central source, Hasbro or otherwise.

    To clarify, you should be aware that there are many fans who do not subscribe to the comics OR the cartoon continuity entirely (or at all), and have embraced other canonical sources, either in full or part, instead. Even the Budiansky profiles/Tech Specs would suggest their own primal, separate canon, predating both the comics and the cartoon.

    zmog
     
  13. Blitz.

    Blitz. Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say it was and I have many of my own crack pot ideas.

    I guess the best way to sum up how I fell is kinda like when you found out theirs no santa sure x-mass was still cool but it was a little less magical.

    Now if some of these ideas led to some interesting and cool ideas I might be on board with them.

    Personally I think we are asking the wrong question all together. It should not be "why are their fembots" but more like "why do they have so many human/organic traits for a race of machines" Since in the grander scope of things theirs more then just robo sexy time going on here.
     
  14. BB Shockwave

    BB Shockwave Behold, Gagatron!

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    Well I think that the whole question cannot be answered in one go for ALL CONTINUITIES. Because, the origin and even the nature of TFs is wastly different in many of them.

    As others said before me, the G1 cartoon universe fembots have a solid explanation by being built by the Quints to look and behave like females do. Considering that BW/BM comes more or less from the G1 cartoon (with minor comic elements), the same theory works there too.

    The Marvel G1-G2 and DW comic, where Primus created the Transformers... not so simple. While in the cartoon new life was given easily (the Dinobots were just put together, and voila!) in the comics only the Matrix could do that, seeing as all TFs were parts of the life-force of Primus. In G2, to make matters more complicated, we learned that existing TFs could "bud" and divide into two, creating a new living TF with a new personality, although this severly weakened the distilled life-force of Primus in both of them, leading to an absence of morality.

    I once asked Furman on his blog about his opinion on how TFs could divide into two, and why in G2 he mentions genetic structure... He explained it that he has an idea about "CNA", a sort of information code not unlike our DNA in all TFs. I think in a later comic he elaborated on the idea. I think you can still find this on his blog about the Arcee spotlight - a lot of discussion happened there too.

    Frankly put it - the only femmebot in the Marvel G1/G2 universe was Arcee, and we do have an explanation for her. We don't know though, why Hot Rod/Rodimus would be so... well, in love with her (See Space Pirates) when he knows she is not really female.

    As for the DW comics... apparently no real explanation is given, not even in the Ultimate Guide which was canon (at the time).

    In IDW, we have our explanation, and frankly I like it. Makes perfect sense. I hope one day we'll know just what were Jhiaxus' goals and what he thought Arcee would be capable of given gender. Perhaps a whole new type of TF would be born if "concieved" between different genders? Well, I guess we may never know, now that Furman is off the G1 series sadly.
     
  15. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Indeed! I'm sure we all do. :lol 

    Yeah, this is a fair question... the obvious answer goes right back to the "it's a space fantasy" explanation, but both the "Quintesson origin" (assuming a larger galaxy of 20ft tall human-like beings with robot purchasing power at least) and the Primus comics origin cover this... well, being that Primus was a good ol' fashioned Earth-style space god in the greco-roman mold, and made TFs in his image... except for that turning into cars thing... *cough*

    But even with all the variations and physical diversity in Transformers, it's pretty hard to ignore the predominance of humanoid, 5-fingers, 2-eyes, nose & mouth, etc, etc...

    UGH! Budding! What more proof do we need that sometimes Furman stayed up too late drinking and watching Gremlins on super-channel, and then had to pull a story idea out of his ass the next morning. :drunk 

    I appreciate what Simon was trying to do with IDW Arcee... and yes, it's good that he tried to integrate Fembots somehow, and explain them.

    But he went about it in such a wrong-headed and stupid way, I can't even begin to accept it. Every single aspect of it has huge logical holes in it, not to mention a not-so-subtle misogynist streak a mile-wide.

    zmog
     
  16. Blitz.

    Blitz. Well-Known Member

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    I kinda agree the IDW story was kinda silly. Firstly why did Jhiaxus do it? just for sh*ts and giggles? I dunno he seems like a character who has a goal behind his experiments so why just to copy another races looks? (I say looks and not gender since Arcee was still machine just like any other apart from the looks) Also seems like a waste of time given the rest of the story arc. And why was Arcee so bent out of shape about it just find an autobot medic/engineer and have them swap your guts into a newbody. OK being pissed about it seems logical but He/she Arcee just seemed to loose it all the time and try to kill every one she seen.
     
  17. Flashdisk

    Flashdisk Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind transformers having gender. Looking at the natural world, most dominant complex lifeforms in the planet have gender. The birds, reptiles, amphibians, mammals, marsupials, fishes all have gender. Why do they have gender? Why didn't the hermaphrodites end up becoming the dominant form of life? Why not the animals which can multiply through budding?

    The way I see it, biologically speaking there is a great advantage in having two genders. Maybe having two sexes allows the more flexibility while still being of a single race, balancing out adaptation, genetic repair. Some scientist believe that reproduction through having two sexes enable the repair of mutations and erasure of unwanted characteristics from a species. Maybe having two sexes enable the species to filter out defects and allow the best characteristics to be passed on.

    How about reading the article above.

    Why Do Plants And Animals Need To Have Sex ? - The Naked Scientists

    Evolution of sexual reproduction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    If natural selection itself on our planet proves that having different sexes is advantageous to life, who are we to argue? The same rules of natural selection may have happened on Cybertron.

    PS. I would take the reason above as a better reason than the one in the comic book.
     
  18. Blitz.

    Blitz. Well-Known Member

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    the only glaring flaw is... transformers are mechanical not biological ... they don't mutate, they don't have DNA and in theory if well maintained they are immortal. And when it comes to adapting... your talking about a race of machines that can physically change form or even be given new body's
     
  19. Flashdisk

    Flashdisk Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the writer.

    Because according to the article in TF wiki they have something similar to DNA, called CNA.

    CNA - Transformers Wiki

     
  20. Blitz.

    Blitz. Well-Known Member

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    but again their is no mutation in the CNA its just like saved data to a flash drive it can be edited but it cant mutate unless another force makes it change.

    Also even with CNA theirs still no need for gender.

    Just to put this out their I don't have anything against fembots I actually think they add some nice verity (from a character designer POV) but its all this bad retcon that just takes the fun out of it... E.g. the IDW answer... all fembots are tranny's. that's not fun and its not a very imaginative idea aether
     
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