This! Of course the adventures could be a bit more, like in the beginning. But mostly it's aweseome because it is, like it is.

 

Most interesting thing I've read. We question beings dancing but don't question the killing. Kinda sums it up for me.
In a fictional sense, I just figure that Cybertronians don't dance as much as other colonies.
It's no more silly to me than a teddy bear playing bongos in a sci fi film, put it that way....

 

The only problem with MTMTE's partying is it was drawn so well it made Blurr's bar in Windblade look like a child's party.

 

Art has a lot to do with it.   And the lack of bots too? I know its hard days but Blurr's bar was kinda empty. XD

 

Well, to hit it on the nose... YES... murdering each other IS more "normal".

Species in competition have always fought and murdered each other. Aggression and defense are pretty much a primal aspect of most forms of animal life, and is often essential to survival. Competing for resources, for mates, for territory... or hunting and killing other species for food, protection, etc. It very much is "normal", far more than dancing. I mean, since you asked.  

Dancing is a particular kind of social behaviour that is almost exclusive to humans, and subject to a whole lot of extreme variance in practice and meaning... from the recreational to the sacred, music optional. So yeah... it is several degrees more 'human' than 'alien'.

Dancing in MTMTE is exactly like a contemporary first-world nightclub. It is utterly devoid of unique cultural nuances one might expect from weird mechanical aliens, any original twists, or anything that anchors it to its sci-fi roots. Moreover, dancing for Camiens is evidently exactly the same as for Cybertronians, so even between their cultures, there's no notable variance. And then they have an "Earth Dance Party" just so the author can show off his favourite mixtape?

Is it fun? Okay, sure. But it's also frivolous, immersion-breaking, and (worst of all), just way too much.

You have to balance this stuff... and in this 2-parter, I feel like the balance was waaaay off.

zmog

 

Good points well made.

Though it a distinctly human thing most forms of creative expression have existed in every one of our human societies regardless of whether they was at war or if the societies norms had casual brutality. Obvious biological and cultural differences aside Transformers have always been portrayed as sentient to a similar level to humans so would likely have the similar desires to express themselves in these creative ways to us so dance would likely exist in all of their societies like it does ours.

I could see some slight cultural or character points underneath the frivolous side. Nautica mentioned a cultural pressure and judgement to join in with the creative things which I'm guessing included dance. I read the scene when she danced with Skids as a sign of her feeling more emotionally free when dancing of the Camiens pressures, judgements and shame of its association with her failed relationship and was doing it for her own pleasure and enjoyment in movement.

I can definitely see the night club point but I can't see how this could be avoided as its a peace time setting and its a room designated for dancing so conatations are pretty unavoidable however it was dressed up. Making it a non earth night could have helped though.

I would have liked to see more diverse cultural implications to dance in the transformers societies shown in the fiction. It has been mentioned how the Camiens are both religious and creative, I would like to hear more about if there is some greater cultural link between these. Maybe the Decepticons or one of the yet to be met colonies could have had a military dancing squadron who have a battle dance that has sort of grown into a martial art.

 

Dancing is hardly limited to humans. Many species of birds, fish, and even spiders and insects dance. It's a very useful way to convey intent, like "hey, want to be my life partner?", when you don't have language.



So sexy.

 

You can't argue that dancing is "too human" of a behavior for the TFs to engage in because every other behavior in the book is regular "frivolous" human behavior. Self-sacrifice, envy, revenge, mourning-- none of these other behaviors "make sense" for mechanical beings but we accept them. Joy and dancing fit alongside those other "frivolous" behaviors.

I can see how folks feel like it was gratuitous and immersion-breaking though. I think there was a level of comfort with how "human" the 'bots have typically been portrayed in all other stories and Roberts has now regularly crossed that line by making them "more human".

Semi-tangent. The characters are no longer soldiers, right? They are a crew and a squad, there is a hierarchy and chain-of-command and they remain trained combatants (most of them) but they are no longer a standing army-- correct? If you've been a soldier for most of your existence, what's it like to transition to non-combatant status? I don't think Roberts has really explored this.

There will always be conflict but the war is really over. Even soldiers dance from time-to-time and engage in joyful activities. I wonder if the characters ever thought, "when was it the last time I danced?"

 

I did say "almost exclusive" to humans for that reason. We associate these instinctual animal behaviours with our concept of "dancing" though I think there are actually several degrees of difference between them... especially compared to the recreational, musical social dancing we see in MTMTE.

In almost all the examples in the animal kingdom, it is a mating display, often to showcase competitive virility (so really only a short step removed from fighting)... even if it's only a self-sustaining survival system (ie: big plumage attracts females, therefore females are attracted to mates who will yield young with bigger plumage, so they can attract more females, thus ensuring the stronger bloodline of big-feathered alpha birds... even though big feathers have no other intrinsic value to survival).

Since mating isn't really a necessity for the propagation of Cybertronian species (indeed, even as a purley social practice, it has been established as being relatively rare), where does dance originate? Is it a dominance display? Is it a religious ritual? The notion that "dancing just feels good" is actually only the most superficial product of millenia of entrenched and meaningful social practices, which has really only recently become disentangled from most of those originating, instrumentalized contexts.

Absolutely. We already know that TFs have an artistic tradition and value forms of self expression (which is all the more emphasized in Roberts' writing).

However, I think that we still need to maintain some sense of distance from TFs. They are still aliens, so I think there's a delicate balance to strike between using them as pure human-like analogies, and maintaining their sense of difference as (biologically incredibly different) aliens. I think Roberts sometimes walks this line rather well, selectively making comparisons between our culture and theirs, with adjustments for their industrial/mechanical way of life. Other times, he just says "yeah, fuck it... I'm going to be super obvious".

To be clear, I don't have any problem with Transformers having a form of dance... or several forms of dance even.

What is a bit dull and facile is making them dance to earth music, just like modernized, middle-class, urban-contemporary humans, with all the same dull, superficial meanings attached. I see that as a multi-level fail. In following a "just for fun" whim for two straight issues, Roberts has failed to embed credible social traditions into the universe he is building with any grace, and has not only robbed the Transformers of their science-fictional cultural cache, but has, in very whitebread form, robbed DANCE of it's entire, diverse history of difference, innovation, ritual, and socio-cultural meaning.

That sounds a bit high-minded. I don't care that much. But that is why it is lame.

Exactly. I think some of those elements are far richer than anything pertaining to Camien social organizations (ie: High School Drama).

Even some slight hint or reference to what artistic movement and expression means to them as a culture would be welcome. Instead, it's just 45 minutes past happy hour, and the DJ has just put on "Come On Eileen". Everybody shake your booty.  

Additionally, as I think I mentioned earlier, how does freedom of movement, ritualized body aesthetics, and haptic expression reflect a culture where you can literally physically transform your body at will? In that sense, I see it not only as a failure of imagination, but as a missed artistic challenge as well.

I very much can. Anthropomorphism in Transformers is a broad scale, with many stops along the way.

Not so... very often the specificities of cultural practice in this series (at least, at the best of times) are nuanced by their mechanical nature and intensified sense of difference. In this case, when approaching 'dance' as a subject, Roberts just got inordinately lazy.

My comment earlier really just points out that violence and survival are far MORE universal across the spectrum of animal life than any particular, explicit cultural practice... so making the comparison with violence isn't necessarily apt.

Exactly. And it's a bit more jarring, because when he began on the series, he was very good at fleshing out cultural practices and the history of Cybertron, by keeping the symmetry between "western industrialized earth life" and "a bazillion years of history lived by immortal living machines" somewhat interrupted by aspects of strangeness... things that were familiar to our own culture, but at the same time, could only be applicable to a mechanical life form like TFs. In other words, he was smart about it.

Fun is fun... but again, balance. There is a critical threshold where the "fun" to "dumb" ratio becomes unsustainable, and the system (and audience engagement) falters. He's walking way to close to those lines for me lately.

I think he's touched on it, but not in great detail. We've seen Fort Max's PTSD. We've seen characters who can't let go of the past. It's true though... a lot of that has been evaded.

I'm also curious what everybody actually DOES on the Lost Light. I mean, at the best of times, the Autobot chain of command has seemed pretty informal, but on this ship I doubt that it actually needs 300 bots to run smoothly. In many respects, this whole expedition is basically a luxury space cruise full of damaged decommisioned war vets. They spend all their time lazing around doing jack squat, and drinking their rations (wherever those come from) and periodically they fight things.

Considering the concept of info-creep, it's possible they might have forgotten about dancing entirely.  

zmog

 

How would you demonstrate joy or a leisure activity? I guess you can argue that it's okay to show TFs demonstrate joy or engaging in a leisure activity but demonstrating it by having them dance is silly or "lazy."

I won't argue if dancing was a good idea (in this post) but this conversation reminds of the first time I saw 3D chess on Star Trek The Next Generation. I thought it was a hacky way of showing a "futuristic leisure activity". I thought, "why can't they just play regular chess." After a while I just grew to accept it and it became a "normal" fixture.

Going back to creating more "culturally sophisticated" activities for TFs that reflect their mechanical nature-- I think you run the risk of creating something new but hackneyed just for the sake of making the activity more "authentic" to the setting. You could have the TFs enjoying a hot oil bath? I guess that's not silly. Or maybe it is.

I'm just wondering out loud. I suppose some folks felt the dancing was very hackneyed. I don't think anyone is arguing against showing the TFs having "down time" and doing "fun" stuff. Although, they have a bar where they socialize and drink. When the idea was first introduced, I thought it was silly but a very necessary setting to show characters interacting outside of a conflict. I guess some folks are more comfortable with some settings/behaviors then others... Afterall, Trailbreaker had a drinking problem...

 

Weren't there dancing fembots in the flashbacks of the history of Cybertron in Five Faces of Darkness?

 

Lol OP is a fake geek boy.

 

If you're reading my posts, I do answer that. It IS lazy/silly, because even earth-people in different cultures show their joy in different ways, and engage in very different kinds of leisure activities.

But here we have an absolutely un-modified, undifferentiated form of dancing, with no additional element of difference, or of cultural specificity for an alien machine race with radically different biologies to humankind. So yeah... that is frivolous and lazy, from a narrative perspective.

On a totally peripheral note, do Transformers exercise? Do they need to? Logically, they wouldn't... especially if they're receiving regular maintenance.

Ah, but even in that example, there's a culturally logical throughline that makes sense...

- the Federation is the historical descendant of modern western european traditions and social mores. The idea that a new twist on chess might gain popularity over a few hundred years is credible. It's not like "look, we're playing a game that is just like chess, but in an alien culture!".

- since making the leap to space, tactical awareness is forced to incorporate a third dimension, and an upset of traditional orientation based on planet-based gravity, etc... space is not a flat battlefield. Hypothetically, 3D chess would be an excellent strategic learning tool for Star Fleet officers

When you look at it in that context, it actually makes the setting just a bit richer, rather than poorer.

It depends on the context. Hot oil baths certainly could take on a special significance for machine beings... but rubber duckies not so much.

I've already pointed out that "dance" is already INCREDIBLY diverse even in our own cultural history... it's a bit trite that dance in Cybertronian culture is exactly the same as it is for 20th century British college students. It wouldn't take much to address it in a way that is a bit more specific to Transformers. It's the fact that he used to actually take those small pains in his writing that impressed me about Roberts when he appeared on the scene.

I think the wholesale import of Earth-style pub culture is also problematic. I recognize its narrative function, but it could be a bit more developed for the Cybertronian specificity, considering how much time the characters spend there. There's still something to be said for even blunt allegory.

And recognizing something as a "necessary evil" doesn't mean that piling more evils on top is equally okay. There's eventually a tipping point. Roberts has been testing that tipping point lately, and in this past story arc, I think he just pushes the whole thing over.

zmog