Hi y´all!

Just a thought, I like the DJD just as much as the next guy (well, Tarn at least), but don´t you feel that they are a tad bit overpowered? Let me explain:

Here is Black Shadow, making short work of THE WRECKERS:



He is a Phase Sixer, an upgraded, immensely powerful Decepticon capable of unimaginable mayhem. Other examples of Phase Sixers are:



Sixshot - Unstoppable destroyer of worlds



Overlord - well, Decepticon Overlord, single handedly besting the Wreckers, the whole Lost Light crew and anyone who would be pitted against him on Garrus-9.

These were the Warriors Elite, especially rebuilt point one-percenter Decepticons becoming so powerful and near-invulnerable, that Megatron has to have a number of failsafe mechanisms built into them to deactivate them in case they would get out of control. Basically, Decepticon super villians. Now, this is what happens when Black Shadow meets the DJD:



Not only do they defeat him in battle, they apparently manage to subdue him without any losses or damage to the team-members, as they proceed to torture him, with visible damage to his supposedly near-invulnerable ununtrium-reinforced body, until Tarn whispers him to death. As Black Shadow explodes, Tarn implies that this is not the first phase-sixer they take down.



So who is Tarn? He is also a point one-percenter and unusually strong, presumably at the level of Sixshot and Overlord. So far, so good. But does he also have an ununtrium-reinforced body? Does he have a "sealed, self-regenerating power core"? Does he have failsafe mechanisms for Megatron to keep him in check? And what about the other members? Sure, they are unusually vicious, but are they all superpowered?



To some degree, it certainly seems so, since they, seemingly effortlessly, slaughter the whole lost light crew, including Autobots such as Rodimus and the point one-percenters Ultra Magnus and Fortress Maximus. Again, with enough ease to enjoy a little torture of the few survivors afterwards.

Personally, I think they are ridiculously overpowered. Think about what their function as Decepticons are/were. To track down, torture and kill deserters and dissidents within their own faction. Basically, not battle, but torture and execution. To set examples, instill fear. In a war in real life, are the most "proficient" torturers necessarily the best soldiers in battle situations as well? Do they need to be? For the DJD to come down on at least single victims they don´t have to be extremely powerful since they will have power in numbers, especially as at least one of them (Tarn) is unusually powerful. In other words, they don´t have to be very powerful or even extremely versed in combat to do their job well (set examples, instill fear), just unusually cruel (which they also happen to be).

Yet, here they are, five bots, completely besting a small army of some of the best of what the Autobots have to offer in combat, it is presumably not even an even fight. And they are able to capture, subdue and torture what basically amounts to supervillans, Phase Sixers. Black Shadow? No sweat. Overlord? Well, he was on their list, too. Sixshot? Probably no problem either. I bet they could take on the Dinobots too and whip their sorry asses easily enough to then proceeding to torture them just because... well, they are the pet characters of (the otherwise awesome) James Roberts?

My problem with this is twofold:

1. The mismatch of their power and responsibilities. If the DJD really are this powerful, why are they merely used as police/torturers/executioners? Why are they not more like Squadron X, i.e. a Decepticon version of the Wreckers deployed for otherwise impossible missions? Why are they not at the FRIGGIN FRONTLINES OF ANY IMPORTANT BATTLEFIELD to tip the battles in the favor of the Decepticon for furthering their expansion and cause as a whole?

2. A matter of respect towards established characters. In the 80s, Simon Furman (the also awesome) created Death´s Head with Geoff Senior. While I liked him, I found him overpowered as well, as he could seemingly easily best anyone but Galvatron (who is the epitome of being overpowered, but I guess the DJD could hand his ass to him as well). He killed Shockwave with a few shots. Even as a child, I found that profoundly disrespectful. Shockwave is one of the oldest, most iconic Decepticons with a long history in TF media already at that point, and he is killed by a completely new guy who doesn´t have a toy, no backstory and cracks oneliners for comical relief. I DID like Death´s Head, but I DIDN´T like that he could kill Shockwave without sweat (even though the dramaturgy and impact of that story were admittedly awesome!).

Fast forward to today, and we have the DJD, the supposedly most badass warriors in the universe, besting anyone Roberts feel like pitting them against. I cannot help wondering if there is a tinge of hubris involved here? As in "I am at the rudder of TF mythology now, and I will create my own characters that will be the most powerful of all and can make any other Transformers their bitches!" I find the power level of the DJD profoundly disrespectful towards older characters that have earned their iconic status and fictional superiority through participation in decades of Transformers storytelling.

Now, don´t get me wrong. I think James Roberts is possibly the best TF writer ever, and I even like the CONCEPT of the DJD. But I think they would have worked just as well without being ridiculously super-powered.

Now, I realize this might be an unpopular opinion given the general admiration of the DJD out there, but it´s mine. Now, what do YOU think?

Personally, I hope the DJD´s apparent superiority will be explained by one of the members being an outlier, able to telepathically instill irrational fear in whoever encounters the DJD, rendering them incapable in battle.

 

So, are the DJD ridiculously overpowered?

I forgot to add the poll in the first thread, would be super thankful if a mod could merge this poll with that thread?

 

In MTMTE #39, it was explained that the DJD have exclusive access to Nuke, a special form of Nucleon that Brainstorm unwittingly created with his time traveling in #34. I recall there being something about it being Only discovered during Costa's run. Consider that it's indicated Megatron simply let them do whatever, and they seemed to be so out of the loop, they didn't know Megatron became an Autobot. It seems likely they would never have bothered to tell anyone about the Nuke, which is why Megatron never gave it to any of the other Decepticons.

I really don't see their power levels as being disrespectful to past characters. New characters shouldn't be limited to what the old characters are capable of. Frankly, the Decepticons needed some genuine threats among them, and I personally love the concept of the Decepticon Justice Division and feel that no pre-established characters could serve the same purpose.

Also, the other Lost Light certainly wasn't filled by the Autobots' finest. Outside of Magnus, and maybe the two Wreckers on board, I don't feel that anyone there would have been exceptionally powerful.

 

When Megatron was first introduced he walked off blasts from a SUPER enhanced Starscream. As in they did nothing. Since then he's caught a combiners fist with his bare hands, shaken off having a very big satellite dropped on him and blown up a demi-god made out of hundreds if not thousands of sweeps and Decepticons. The DJD have taken out a couple of phase sixers, one off screen. I think we're grand.

Also having people that powerful/capable whose whole job is to just torture traitors makes sense when you consider how powerful POPS and Phase Sixers are. What other possible means of punishment/control could a Decepticon society use against someone who themselves is worth an army/planet than a group whose entire purpose is to bring down people regardless of their strengths?

 

I think the element of suprise is a factor in the DJD's power. And they didn't really fight overlord V2. He was restrained and they cut off his head.

 

Overlord wasn't really restrained. We already know he could have escaped easily. The important thing to note is the fact THAT Overlord hadn't been told Megatron was alive and was presumably 100% suicidal. He probably just sat there whispering "kill me" over and over again as they took his head off.

 

So, they have a super-fuel. Does that take them to Phase Sixer-level?

Again, I also like the concept of the DJD as sadistic executioners of Decepticon traitors, not just as almighty warriors as well. We have other characters for that.

And no, maybe not the Autobots finest, but Magnus, a couple of Wreckers and the high number of other decent fighters on board should be enough to stop them in their tracks, or at the very least give them a hell of a hard-earned victory. Instead? Slaughter. Because of "nuke"? Really?

Yeah, I am totally onboard with Megatron being one of the most powerful TF´s out there. He EARNED it. The DJD? Not so much.

What other means for controlling Phase Sixers? What about a host of obviously existing failsafe mechanisms built into them? The DJD just rendered those meaningless. In fact, they just rendered the concept of phase sixers meaningless, since they obviously are more powerful and could be sent for trashing planets in their place.

What I mean to say is that the concepts of Warriors Elite and Phase Sixers were well thought through; at least Sixshot and Overlord were worthy choices of characters for the concept, and it was explained exactly how they were made so powerful and resilient, and with the failsafe mechanisms you got a sense that there were consequences of giving them such unusual power.

In comes the DJD, who hunt and kill Phase Sixers, and are able to do so because... badass? No real explanation of why they´re so strong, no mention of built in failsafe mechanisms to control them, etc. Super fuel? Not enough, in my opinion.

 

It's a time altered nucleon, the stuff they used to fuel Thunderwing. It gives them a MASSIVE jolt in power but it is highly addictive and potentially lethal. Basically a super version of super energon with worse side effects. If nucelon has been shown to have a power up effect already, a warped version giving a greater temporary boost makes as much sense. And once they took out Magnus, there's literally no one else on the LL (at the time) powerful enough to drop a normal POP. Overlord WALKED through the entire ship's crew on his own. He dropped Magnus with a single blow. Hell he only lost in Wreckers because of the same reason he lost in MTMTE, psychological warfare. He was perfectly happy to murder them as a flaming skeleton. A group of 5 bots that when nuked are strong enough as a unit to take down a phase sixer? Yeah, they'd annihilate the LL crew.

One of the strongest POPS? Absolutely. But the McCarthy and Costa era took it to monumentally stupid levels. Megatron had to surrender to be captured, and on his own could have won the whole war. It robbed a lot of pathos from things. His portrayal more recently as Prime/Grimlock/Shockwave level i.e. among the powerful, he occupies the top tier is perfectly fine. Him being Thor makes the whole war mildly hilarious. and I don't think you "earn" that kind of power fictionally. What's Black Shadow ever done to be portrayed as someone so powerful?

Every single failsafe shown has failed. The killswitch, the achilles virus...all backfired. The DJD are a consistant threat that are beyond the individuals control. Get past my blocks but if you do this is waiting for you. they can't alter or get round the DJD. It's a secret police which exists to intimidate everyone, weak and powerful. classic dictatorial tactics.

Five bots with a temporary power source that might burn out in a matter of hours who are outside the military complex are not a weapon of war. They have no tactical deployment, and if they did they can fail part way. Individually they're not more powerful. Going by the Deathsaurus fight, they're as easily injured as anyone (Overlord et al. aren't just powerful they're virtually indestructible.) A phase sixer is a reliable weapon you can guarantee results with. And one that (in theory) is controlled by military norms. Far more valuable in open warfare.

We've got as much of an explanation for the DJD's strength as we've got for Phase Sixers. Super fuel that makes them crazy strong for a brief period of time vs making someone more powerful than a planatary armada because you bonded metal to their bones.

 

Honestly, I don't see why anything more is needed than super fuel. Heck, you say the Phase Sixers were properly thought through, but we never found out how they're made until MTMTE.

One thing that you seem to be ignoring is that the DJD are a team. It's entirely possible that, if five+ Ununtrium enhanced warriors were to team up, they could beat the DJD. Also, if Optimus and his team couldn't beat Sixshot, why would Magnus, two Wreckers, and a handful of other noteworthy Autobots be able to stop the entire DJD team?

Also, even if the DJD could take on a team of Ununtrium enhanced warriors, like I said before, they only discovered Nuke after the war ended. Ununtrium was being used well before then.

 

The sliding scale of strength when it comes to Transformers is in almost the same category as scale - we either accept it, or make our heads explode trying to rationalize it.

For all we know, the DJD may have other tricks in taking down or possibly even depowering Phase Sixers that we simply haven't been made privy to; we've only ever seen the final results, not the actual take down in those instances, and we don't know exactly what preparations they may make for each hunt. Remember that Grimlock probably would have taken them all down if the circuit speeders hadn't worn off so quickly, because they weren't prepared for encountering him.

 

Since Megatron is now part of the LL, a final showdown with them will show..who shall stand & who shall fall!

 

I just want one of them to die, just one. I don't care who does it but one of them needs to die just to show they are not invincible.

 

I want all of them to die brutally with the exception of Tarn.

Tarn is OK.

 

One did. The previous enormous chainsawed Vos.

 

The who now?

 

"Vos" is the second confirmed "Vos". The archival footage at Megatron's trial showed an enormous person with hooks for feet. And I think chainsaw hands but I might be mis-remembering that. The names have never changed but bar Tarn, none of the current team were part of the first roster. When one is killed, a new zealot steps in and takes the name of the empty city state.

 

Well I mean like a Non-DJD guy.

They really need their asses kicked.

 

Sorry, you´ll have to explain "POP" to me?

Anyways, taking into account all you wrote about Overlord above, is it reasonable that an equally powerful, but less durable bot (Tarn) and his four henchmen on a temporary power boost is able to take him down with brute force alone? I think they´d have to employ some sort of trap, or at least seriously take him by surprise... As he obviously won´t give up even as a burning skeleton?

And again, given that Black Shadow had the same ununtrium upgrade, how ridiculously powerful must not Tesaurus metal grinder be, since he crushed his legs?

You are right about Megatron in that story arc, way too powerful, he should indeed be among Optimus, Magnus, etc, and THAT he earned on the merit of being a long-serving, iconic character. However, the feeling you have about his "Thor version" making the whole war seem redundant is the same feeling I get from watching the DJD kill Black Shadow. First, there is this buildup for explaining why p6ers are so special, and then, suddenly, "...but these guys are better, somehow".

As for Black Shadow himself? Well, he had a G1 toy at least, a remold of Thunderwing, which is usually a very powerful character in TF lore, so one could think they share a similar construction. He also seems to have been something of a badass in Victory. When elevating an obscure character like that, much like with Overlord and Thunder Clash, I think it is a nice way of putting the spotlight on otherwise forgotten parts of TF history (like Japanese G1 in the West, Euro G1 in the US), and celebrating its diversity. As for doing it with new guys... I guess I have no problem with Tarn being super-strong, just that the phase sixers also have the uruntrium upgrade and the self-fueling cores giving them both superior durability AND unlimited endurance... which the DJD supposedly lack. And yet, they somehow win.

So you are saying, since the p6ers failsafes did not work DJD is the only way to control them? And we cannot control the DJD? So you are not fine with super-upgraded (ununtrium, super cores) 0.1 percenters (the strongest bots to begin with) being uncontrollable threats, but you are OK with a bunch of psychotic drug addicts being uncontrollable?  

Secret police? Fine. The best, most dangerous warriors out there being given a mere police role? Hmm...

I frankly find the Phase Sixers overpowered too, even though they are supposedly deployed when a planet is already on its knees. But yes, I find "super alloy plus nuclear reactor core" being a better explanation for power than "super magic potion fuel". It´s a matter of taste I guess, but energon sometimes seems like a magic potion to me, rather than fuel, bestowing its users with magic powers, and I prefer TF to be sci-fi rather than fantasy.

...Magnus and co could stop the DJD because they are NOT ununtrium-enhanced phase 6ers, just a bunch of sadistic freaks on a temporary power rush?

...so you are saying the DJD could well enough take on phase 6ers without it?

All of the above is something I can well get behind. As mentioned above, Megatron could beat a demigod in one second, only to be ripped in half by Galvatron in the next one... There is surely no 100% consistency, at least not between different writers...

You are right that the DJD might employ special methods for taking down p6ers. Mabye Megatron gave them access to one or more of the failsafe devices? That too is something I could get behind. Then I only have to get over Tesaurus´s metal grinder being able to chew through Black Shadow´s ununtrium-reinforced legs... I look forward to learn more about them, regardless!

 

Again they did. The Blackbox consortium kicked the sheet out of them after the nuke wore off. If it wasn't for Trailbreaker both the current Vos and Kaon would have died.

 

Roberts has also pointed out that at the end of that issue, Vos and Kaon run away from Bluestreak, Mainframe, and First Aid. They're weakened, and would have been hurt or killed if the Autobots attacked. But the DJD does a lot of getting by on reputation, terrifying their opponents before any fights actually happen.