You hate TF-P? Is it the Phantom Menace effect?

Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by SentinelPrime, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. SentinelPrime

    SentinelPrime I NEEDED THAT!

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    I just don't understand the hate. I don't, at all.

    I get that everyone, myself included, wants to tweak a few things here and there to make it the "perfect" TF show. Everyone has a specific vision for these characters. It's only natural. For me, a couple of things I'd like would be lose a kid or two and give 'bee a voice. Maybe show a world with more general life.

    But the venom? The bile and disgust? Wtf? It's not like it has all the racist moronic humor from the films, or the insanely low haphazard quality of the Armada era...or even the mostly crappy characters from most of the IDW run. (LSOTW and new reboot notwithstanding)

    I am 37 and have watched TF shows since the very first ep of G1 on a Saturday morning. I actually remember that day. I also remember the state of TF cartoons prior to the release of Prime and what I wanted to see out of a TF, quality wise.

    Prime so far has exceeded what I thought we would ever see on mainstream TV for the core TF franchise. Animated had great characters but was way too on crack for me. BW had great stories and characters, but well, you had to contend with it being the Beast Wars regardless of loving/hating it.

    To come here and read some of these posts; it's astounding. How can you watch Bulkhead tackle Megatron yelling "your going down Buckethead!" or watch Megatron stomp the entire Autobot team with ease, or watch pretty much anytime Starscream is on screen doing ANYTHING and not get that same joy I feel?

    I've seen the entire run of Prime so far, and while yes, some S1 eps were one offs and some were boring, each time I walked away excited. I thought about how great the animation and character designs were, how I loved the dialogue, the voice acting, how stunning the fights were, and the references like Vector Sigma, Iacon, Kaon, etc. The fact that they treat the source material with respect and it's mostly serious...the classic Cullen voice, the outstanding and underrated Megatron from Welker...how can some of you guys see the same show and not appreciate it on the same level? And btw the writers have claimed the S1 was one offs intentionally, and that S2 would involve one large arc.

    Seeing people claim there's only ONE or TWO good things about the show...saying it has a poor quality level, or no lasting repercussions from episode to episode...hell the finale of Orion Pax referenced at least two previous episodes itself, and Airachnid, Starscream and Breakdown are 3 examples of characters who have developed over many episodes.

    Is it the Phantom Menace effect? Are people now just too scared to like something in fear of horrible disappointment and the fear of not liking something they loved? You know, when millions of fans were so excited to see the Phantom Menace and then left mostly disgusted and nearly traumatized? When George Lucas irreversibly damaged Star Wars and pissed of an ENTIRE GENERATION of people?

    Now that caused tons of people to become super jaded and now unable to "get into" stuff like movies for fear of that same feeling. That is the Phantom Menace effect.

    I mean, if Prime doesn't match up to what you specifically want from TFs, fine, I'd change some stuff too, but to not appreciate what it does right, well, I don't get it and I wish you could enjoy it too.
     
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Dr Pepper Fan

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    It's the Internet. If something exists, there will always be likes and dislikes regarding it.
     
  3. SentinelPrime

    SentinelPrime I NEEDED THAT!

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    Oh, I get it, I always say the internet is a great place to read people making fun of all the stuff you love.

    But again, I don't see how a fan of the franchise as a whole could "hate" Prime or think it "sucks"...oh well.
     
  4. scubaboy31

    scubaboy31 Digital Gypsy

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    I don't hate Prime, I just feel absolutely no excitement for it whatsoever. I don't think about other than on a sunday when a new torent is up and forget about it afterwards. I find it just mostly filler until something I like more comes along. Compare that with my passion for Clone Wars (and I didn't really like the Prequel Trilogy) and Thundercats which I can't stop recommending to people. I just have this apathy towards it. There's elements I love, like Jeffrey Combs' Ratchet, and Welker's Megatron, but for the most part I find the characters to be really bland (but well acted) or just annoying (Miko, BB, Arcee, Raf) and they have managed to strip all of the passion out of Optimus Prime.

    In fact passion may be the key.

    Coming off of Animated, where there was so much love for the franchise brimming from its every pore, there just isn't that same enthusiastic drive behind Prime. It's funny that you mention IDW, as Prime very much reminds me of my feelings towards the 'Ungoing' of the past few years. And in the same way I would buy each of Costa's issues and be briefly entertained, not offended, but ultimately unsatisfied, such is the same with Prime.

    I hope this will change, the show has promise.

    At least its stopped me from worrying about buying new toys. No FE woes for me!
     
  5. SentinelPrime

    SentinelPrime I NEEDED THAT!

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    You know, I totally agree with that to some extent. Some eps do seem to be going through the motions, and other than a handful of bad a$$ quotes, Optimus does seem very bland.

    I do hope to see that corrected in S2.

    And yes, Thundercats is great.
     
  6. Pravus Prime

    Pravus Prime Wields Mjolnir!

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    Hypocritical much? Believe me, I wish I could enjoy Prime too.

    Since you brought up Animated, allow me to explain why I love Animated and (sometimes barely) tolerate Prime.

    Animated is without a doubt, the tightest written show I have ever seen. It manages to be a growing storyarc series without being a serial series; you could watch most of the episodes within the season in any order, but at the same time there were zero stand alone episodes. Every episode of Animated tied into that seasons finale, another seasons episode, or in some way was a building block to other or multiple episodes and several times it tied into multiple episodes. Every episode contributed something to the overall story of Animated.

    At the same time, we got character focus episodes that did more then just allow the character to shine, it left us with more information about the character. Take Bumblebee for instance. We're presented with an egotistical bot who likes to be lazy and goof off, but through the course of the series we also learn that he sacrificed his dreams of being in the Elite Guard just so his friend Bulkhead wouldn't be drummed out of the service and that there's more to him then what we initially saw.

    Animated also wasn't shy on the little touches. Characters had different transformation sounds, Optimus' engine revved when he was upset, there was a little noise when someone was confused, etc. Lots of little touches that made them seem more like characters then Living Props. Let alone all the homages the series was steeped in. Nor was it afraid to have some fun with the Transformer mythos, like where does Optimus Primes trailer go when he transforms?

    It also wasn't shy from shaking things up. Characters were reduced to a head for a season, Sari grew up, as we learned more about the characters who they were and how they worked with the team dynamic changed. It also did the boldest thing perhaps ever in our franchise, it showed that the Autobots weren't pure good and the Decepticons as nothing but evil. Between the Almanacs and several episodes, it's not that hard to find that the Decepticons were the good guys and the Autobots were the villains and things have gotten out of hand on both sides. Nor was it afraid from giving us a lot of depth, Ratchet has full blown PTSD.

    What does the successor to Animated do? With Orion Pax, part 3, it's had as many episodes as the first two seasons of Animated and Transform and Roll Out. It had a season of largely unconnected and in some cases perhaps pointless episodes. It had a season finale that came out of no where and now that it's been resolved has left virtually no impact on the series. We still know nothing about Ratchet, Bumblebee, or Bulkheads past. Optimus Prime may as well be made out of cardboard, he has no depth to his character. The cons aren't much better, since the vast majority of them are faceless, nameless beings who only exist to fill the screen and pad the plot. After 29 episodes the overall plot has inched forward from where it was at the start of the series.

    I also dock Prime a few points because so far, it hasn't brought anything groundbreaking to the table. It's like a childs version of what Transformers is about after said child watched Animated and played War For Cybertron and three weeks later was asked to tell the adult what Transformers is about. It also seems like most of the very well received parts of Prime have been when they took from Exodus.

    Lastly, I really, really can't stand Miko any more. At all. I was not an initial hater of Miko, I didn't really mind her at first at all. But then the series continued to make her worse. I'm not just talking about her inability to learn either. To put what I'm about to say in perspective, I have watched:

    • 98 episodes of G1
    • 38 episodes of Headmasters
    • 47 episodes of Masterforce
    • 32 episodes of Victory
    • The OVA of Zone
    • 54 episodes of Beast Wars (2 I watched the Japanese versions)
    • 12 Episodes of Beast Wars II
    • The BWII Movie
    • 22 episodes of Beast Wars Neo
    • 26 episodes of Beast Machines
    • 42 episodes of Car Robots
    • 39 episodes of Robots in Disguise
    • 52 episodes of the God Awful Armada
    • 52 episodes of Superlink (Plus 6 or so of Energon)
    • ~53 episodes of Galaxy Force/Cybertron
    • 44 episodes of Animated (2 in Japanese)
    • 4 episodes of Rescue Bots

    And when I finished watching episode 21 of Prime, TMI, I had become so disenfranchised with the series and Miko in particular I was ready to drop it and never look back. I was urged to give it one more episode and if I didn't like it, I would've been gone. If Stronger, Faster had been any weaker I would've been done with Prime, so I continue to watch, but as far as I'm concerned the series is little above life support in terms of keeping me watching.

    The series also manages to show some of the limitations of modern CGI shows that make it inferior to traditional cel animation for the purposes of a Transformers cartoon. They don't have the budget for protoform characters which results in new characters have alt mode kibble before scanning an alt mode, places seem abandoned because they can't afford random incidental people, Fowler wears a suit even when test flying an experimental jet, etc.

    Don't get me wrong, Prime has it's high points. Welker in this last episode was fantastic in voicing Megatron, Soundwave has several moments of awesome, Jack is a very likable human, Arcee is a great female character, and there are many other positives. However, that makes it worse in a way. When a series has such high points, it makes the low points even lower, and there are so many low points in Prime.

    What also isn't helping is that Rescue Bots has been a thoroughly enjoyable show which has managed to do more in 4 episodes about developing characters and having fun then Prime managed to do in 29.
     
  7. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Well-Known Member

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    First off, your reaction seems to be [​IMG]

    But why I don't like the series is the following.
    My problem is it's all looks. If season two really was going to be a big story arc, there would have been an indication of that by now. Three episodes into season two, the opening multiparter has ended, everything more boring than at the beginning of the series.

    If this series is episodic, it will mean every week shall end with things being almost exactly as they were at before the episode, making the events in each episode pointless, making the entire series pointless.

    If this series has any plot, it is about Jack becoming a human Prime and Silas creating the human Decepticons. That is the last thing I want to see in TFs and I hate those damn Bayformers writers for producing a series with that.

    The characters really seem boring. Bulkheads personality is completely generic for a tough guy in a cartoon, Optimus prime is uninteresting and talks too much, Bumblebee is underdeveloped, we heard about a backstory for Breakdown in two episodes only, Soundwave lacks screentime and I personally find Airachnid forgettable for some reason. Megatron, Starscream, Knockout, Arcee and Ratchet seem to be the only interesting characters.

    I list Megatron as an interesting character that doesn't mean he's a good one. He's a good fighter. That is it. Most Megatrons are. He is an idiot and is possibly insane. Even in Decepticon standards of sanity.

    Then there is potential. This series has just wasted a huge opportunity to do something different. Some people were also expecting One Shall Rise level of episodes. Those were action packed and led somewhere. (Optimus losing his memory). The Orion Pax three parter was slow and boring, lacked action and led nowhere. So far, the almost the entire series has been pointless. Only Darkness Rising 1-5, Masters and Students, Convoy, Predatory, Sick Mind/Out of his head and Partners have had any point to them.

    I probably should add some more stuff and end with a better conclusion but I've grown tired of typing this post.
     
  8. Joalro

    Joalro Well-Known Member

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    I like Prime, it's entertaining. I look forward to watching it. That said, it had not reached Animated or BW level, and I'm pretty sure it won't. The show isn't garbage, it's very fun to watch and there are moments of great joy as they managed to make some very badass characters. The dialogue is very well done.

    However, Prime has introduced many, MANY plots in it's 29 episodes, and has not followed through on ANY of them. Aside from the revival of Megatron, you can pretty much watch any story ark in the show without having seen any of the previous episodes and follow along just fine. By this point in season 2 of BW, everything was changing and there was no way they could go back. By the third episode of Beast Wars:

    Characters died
    New characters were introduced
    All the stasis pods fell to earth and were essentially destroyed, blocking any story lines involving those
    Transmetal was introduced
    It was discovered that they landed on Earth
    Blackarachnia downloaded the golden disc files
    Dinobot stole the golden disc
    Tarantulus had a psychic link with blackarachnia
    Tigatron and Airazor left to do some recon

    All of this happened by the 3rd episode, and ALL of this continued into further episodes! While at the end of the third episode in Prime:

    Megatron has a some information regarding co ordinates that may or may not be actually significant.

    And that's it. That is ALL that we are leaving this arc with. For everything else the reset button has been pushed. That fact is what is holding back Prime. As I said, I enjoy the dialogue and the action sequences are fun but they are unable to hold onto a plot line. The problem with that is that it really takes out any excitement. If you want to predict how the episode will end, all you need to do is ask yourself "how can this go back to how the episode began?" and you have your answer.
     
  9. FatalT 71

    FatalT 71 Mr. JazzHunter

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    Who really cares if others don't like it? Does it matter to your own personal enjoyment of the show? Do you watch it and cringe on the inside knowing that somewhere, some fan will be making a list of things to hate about it?

    Seriously, people need to stop caring so much about what other people think about what they like.

    Myself, I enjoyed the three-parter. I thought it came off pretty well, and though I was able to see some things coming - for example, the Scraplets getting rid of the Insecticon - I was able to sit back and enjoy it for what it was. Other fans being critical of stuff they didn't like isn't the end of the world - some make valid points, others just complain for the sake of complaining. Doesn't block any sunshine for me.
     
  10. scubaboy31

    scubaboy31 Digital Gypsy

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    Wow. You have summed up my feelings far better than I could have. The show is basically on life support for me as well. It's a crying shame, as in many respects we've taken a massive step back in storytelling with Prime. I'd love the show to get better, but I don't have a huge amount of hope. I'll keep watching and hoping til the end of this season though. Give it a fair chance.

    I'd just like the show to actually, y'know be fun. Outside of Comb's excellent Ratchet, there is next to no fun in this show, it's way to serious and dramatic ALL THE TIME. That's kinda boring after a while
     
  11. Meta777

    Meta777 Dr Pepper Fan

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    Spot on. All that matters is how you enjoy the show, and not to worry too much about how others may view it :) 
     
  12. Stygimoloch

    Stygimoloch ROBOT! JET! ROBOT!

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    ^This guy. And the overwhelming consensus is that TF: P is a great show, if you look at the poll in the other thread. By making this thread you're just inciting more debate.
     
  13. Puck Hockey

    Puck Hockey robots turn me on

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    It's nice to be able to see what other people see. There are somethings out there that I hate and it gets me curious as to why other people like it. It's not like this topic is one of those "why don't you like this and I'll counter argue everything said so you do like it."

    Anyways, very quickly, Prime gives me a bitter feeling because its quality does not match its potential and the standard set by Darkness Rising and it's too serious for its own sake. The plots are everywhere (and disconnected), characters feel like one-trick ponies, and the action lacks the excitement of the movies or the feel of the older cartoons due to strange and inconsistent physics.
     
  14. bumblebot98

    bumblebot98 Banned

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    I would take Animated over Prime in a second.

    NOTHING, and I mean nothing about Prime is better than Animated, I do enjoy the show however, and I think its up there with BW and Animated, but actually compared to those shows, it falls so flat.
     
  15. Sol Fury

    Sol Fury The British Butcher Administrator News Staff

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    I think Transformers Prime is an excellent show, though some of the flaws pointed out are particularly glaring, like the lack of other people in some of the locales. The show is great where it counts though - good action and a nice story, it is an entertaining half hour of television, I can get behind that.

    As far as comparing with other series goes - Animated was a blast, but a very different style of show. Beast Wars is a closer relative really, but if you think about how that series progressed by episode 29, we're only just now getting to the interesting stuff. Season 1 of Beast Wars for me was much the same - some hit or miss episodes but when it hit its stride it delivered some fantastic moments. Same for Prime. Prime has yet to give us anything comparative to the strongest moments of Beast Wars - we've not had our Code of Hero yet for Prime for example.

    I find though that a series is never truly appreciated in its own time. Beast Wars had its share of detractors when it was on air, and I know a lot of people then held similar views as some of us do now to Prime. Animated had a very vocal group of fans who disliked it back when it was on, that was only really overcome well into season 2 and season 3.

    I have no doubt in time that opinions will change, fond memories will form, and once the series is complete, it will be remembered not for its bland moments, but for all the good that is has accomplished already, and will go on to accomplish.
     
  16. Stygimoloch

    Stygimoloch ROBOT! JET! ROBOT!

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    /thread

    Seriously though, people are going to dislike or like the show. Thats just a fact. And people who like the show should be able to understand why others dislike the show and vice-versa. Opinions will change, but we should still be able to have civil discussions about Prime's quality. Thats what a forum is all about.
     
  17. Mechafire

    Mechafire Veteran

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    Agreed. All of this "stop liking/disliking what I don't like/like" nonsense is really getting old.
     
  18. ngnikolaos

    ngnikolaos Well-Known Member

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    I love Prime. It's shown and portrayed in a way that wishes to please both the kid, the action figure junkie, and above all, the grown-up who refused to grow up (raises hand).

    The music, the atmosphere, the whole tone of the series has a maturity to it, that, while it's mostly superficial, I can't help but watch it without feeling as if I'm embarrassing myself (Miko scenes excluded).

    Also, the series seems to appreciate characters which I appreciate. Soundwave and Starscream are my favourite characters, and I love this vibe the writers give me, this "Yeah, we love'em too" sense, unlike some films which treated them like dirt on a big pile of crap.

    I also love the designs. Transformers Prime is the FIRST Transformers series I am going to buy action figures from, and I'm 32.

    I also love the story, and while they wrap them in a haste, they're good ideas, and ... I dunno, they feel well done. The synthetic Energon, MECH (man, I love MECH), Unicron to please the G1-ers ... this show has it all.

    And I can't believe it's being brought by the same people who wrote ROTF.
     
  19. Backpack

    Backpack G1 forever.

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    OP, I just don't see the hate you do coming from many posters. Most of the time I see people saying they don't like Prime, point out it's flaws and try to move on. Then get dragged into some word war by a few passionate Prime fans who must defend the show to the bitter end.

    Not every negative thing a person says about Prime should be equated with hate.
     
  20. Mechafire

    Mechafire Veteran

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    :lol  Totally agree.
     

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